ASM AT Caesars Atlantic City -- Dealer Info

I recently visited Caesars in Atlantic City. During my six day stay I played about 38 hours at their blackjack tables, $25 and $50 minimum tables. During which the count rarely ventured into a high count. The count remained mostly average, sometimes pushing a bit higher or dipping a bit lower but nothing extreme. The count basically NEVER went really high or really low. The first couple of days I lost a little, not ever gaining more than I've invested.

One afternoon I sat at an empty table and the dealer was extremely informative. He was a bit odd too but humorous. Usually dealers take me for a casual player and sometimes suggest what hands not to hit or split or double et cetera. I even ask for advice on tricky hands that sometimes catch the eye of bosses when played differently announcing a card counter. Some joking and conversation usually sets the mood for successful play.

Surprisingly we had to wait for the ASM to finish. During which this odd dealer explained the process of the ASM. He stated that it reads each card, counts to make sure they are all there, can reorganize them as if fresh from a new deck, and most of all -- something I was not aware of -- can group the cards to maintain an average count. He even continued to say how it maintained a slight edge in the casino's favor, but much less than slot machines or other casino games. "Your best bet would be blackjack," he said.

Whether or not this dealer knew what he was talking about I don't know. But my years playing blackjack this was a first where I noticed I could not achieve an edge over the tables.

So I walked up to the dingy Taj Mahal where cards are shuffeled by hand and won all money lost at Caesars plus a bit more.

Maybe it was a bad run at Caesars. I've had losing streaks before. But even during those losing streaks the count varied from high to low. Never stayed in the middle like at Caesars shoe after many many shoe.

For me it was a lesson learned. I'll never play at tables with auto shufflers.

Oh... and I am referring to automatic shufflers (when 6-8 decks are being shuffled while other shoe is being dealt), not the continuous auto shufflers that spit cards out to be dealt.

My local casino has ASMs for many of their 8-deck games. I get very high and low counts.

It would probably be illegal for the casinos to knowingly put decks into play that had been arranged in any way. Imagine the slippery slope it leads to: intentionally setting a deck to make the dealer win every hand on a full player table.

Summary: I think the ASMs are fair and you were just unlucky to have a boring run of counts. You shouldn't lose much for your bankroll when this is happening because you should be at your min, but I know it can be boring.

Quote: dwheatley

It would probably be illegal for the casinos to knowingly put decks into play that had been arranged in any way.

I would think so.

This is a piece of NJ state law. And imo forcing a deck to be count neutral is violating the definition of "random".

§ 13:69F-2.5 Shuffle and cut of the cards

(a) Immediately prior to commencement of play, unless the cards were pre-shuffled pursuant to N.J.A.C. 13:69E-1.18(r), after any round of play as may be determined by the casino licensee and after each shoe of cards is dealt, the dealer shall shuffle the cards so that they are randomly intermixed.

This sounds like yet another dealer who likes to hear himself talk. You're playing an 8 deck game, H17 and no surrender with mediocre pen. Is that correct? What was the frequency of positive counts in those 38 hours which, by the way, is a very small sample?

For the shuffle not to be random I would think that the machine would have to be outfitted with RFID or something similar and I just don't think that's the case. I don't know the legalities but that sounds like cheating to me. Isn't that why MindPlay never caught on?

I have played many hours with ASMs and have never had a problem that I'm aware of. I welcome the increase in hands per hour.

Quote: dwheatley

It would probably be illegal for the casinos to knowingly put decks into play that had been arranged in any way.

There is no 'probably' about it. It would be illegal in NJ and most US jurisdictions. I would worry about Indian Casinos, Cruise boat casinos and casinos in other lands with questionable oversight. Maybe even some smaller operations in places that do have decent oversight. But not big corporate places....just too much to lose.

It isn't even the fine which would be big. Just a serious accusation of a casino cheating would be a death blow to that casino. Players will put up with a lot of s**t, deteriorating rules and paytables that give the casino bigger advantages, but serious rumors of cheating would be very damaging and any kind of proof of intentional cheating would be a deathblow to the casino and chain such as Caesars. The industry has surprised me many times with some of the stupidity they have shown, so while nothing surprises me anymore, I just can't see anyone being that stupid.

I agree that it's probably illegal.

But I seriously doubt it's even possible.

Add one ploppy not playing basic strategy, and, to borrow a ploppy's favorite line, it messes up the sequence of the cards.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

I agree that it's probably illegal.

But I seriously doubt it's even possible.

Add one ploppy not playing basic strategy, and, to borrow a ploppy's favorite line, it messes up the sequence of the cards.

Yeah but sequencing isn't necessary to give the casino a bigger advantage. All that is needed is clumping. I do believe the technology is there, making such a scenario possible.

Why the heck is he playing at Caesars anyway? They have the worst rules in town. 8 deck, crappy pen, h17, NMSE for $25 games. Ballys has a 6 deck and it's right there. Even go a short walk to Trop gives you 6 deck, s17, with ok penetration(just avoid Tom the pit boss. He knows counters). Never ever play at Caesars.

The only gambling thing of real note is 9:6 JoB machines with a progressive.

Dealers are not an authoritative source for anything. He is just repeating things that he heard from the degenerate gamblers. I'll bet he also tells you to never split 9s and to stand on all your 16s.

When people see the cards come out in streaks, they think that they could not possibly be random. When people see the cards come out evenly, they think that they could not possibly be random. It's pretty easy to believe in conspiracy theories when you twist any possible outcome to support them.

Most people just really over-react to short term results and jump to all sorts of crazy conclusions.

That sort of (false) talk could and should get that dealer fired. He's disparaging his workplace.

Quote: kewlj

Yeah but sequencing isn't necessary to give the casino a bigger advantage. All that is needed is clumping. I do believe the technology is there, making such a scenario possible.

Yeah the technology is def there I'd think if someone bothers to program the unit. It would likely be illegal. But that doesn't always stop people of course.

Let's just say, for arguments sake that this is true.

Wouldn't that have a pretty large impact on the house edge playing basic strategy? If the shuffle is manipulated in order to maintain an even count, then the cards that come out next would be more heavily dependent on the previous cards. Obviously, in a fair game, taking out a high card makes the next card more likely to be low. But such a shuffle would increase EOR effects in the short term.

Actually, in that case, when the count goes slightly high (say RC+3) the same exageratted effect would occur. That'd be a huge advantage.



But yeah there's no way this is true.

The hypothesis that Caesar's in Atlantic City has automatic shuffle machines that arrange the cards to maintain near neutral hi-lo counts could be experimentally tested. Would someone here please devise a rigorous experiment to test that hypothesis?

Quote: ChesterDog

The hypothesis that Caesar's in Atlantic City has automatic shuffle machines that arrange the cards to maintain near neutral hi-lo counts could be experimentally tested. Would someone here please devise a rigorous experiment to test that hypothesis?

I can go over there later this week and watch a few shoes. So what's the baseline here? If it gets to something like -2 or +2 TC then it's a normal machine?

Yes, I admit 38 hours is an extremely small sample of play for comparison. The cards just seemed odd to me. Added with the dealer's strange information the visit to Caesars simply gave me a raw feeling about playing there again.

Thanks for the tips about Trop and Ballys. I'll definitely check them out. We stayed at Caesars this last time solely based on comps built up from the Reward program through other Caesar's properties.

As for the ASM and NJ laws, just curious if it is against the law if the machine manipulated the cards solely to maintain a casino edge of .05% with grouping cards for neutral count? The cards would still be random, just not clumped with lows or highs. In doing this, a counter would fail to achieve an advantage if ever. Just curious.

Dealers are not a good source for information life that. >80% of the dealers at my casino believe that a player jumping in and out "messes up the cards."

Also, at my casino, to the best of my knowledge, the 8 deck automatic shuffle machines can only count the number of cards, not read or sort them. However, the single deck shuffle machines for carnival games are able to read and sort the cards.

Quote: Stocks72

Yes, I admit 38 hours is an extremely small sample of play for comparison. The cards just seemed odd to me. Added with the dealer's strange information the visit to Caesars simply gave me a raw feeling about playing there again.

Thanks for the tips about Trop and Ballys. I'll definitely check them out. We stayed at Caesars this last time solely based on comps built up from the Reward program through other Caesar's properties.

As for the ASM and NJ laws, just curious if it is against the law if the machine manipulated the cards solely to maintain a casino edge of .05% with grouping cards for neutral count? The cards would still be random, just not clumped with lows or highs. In doing this, a counter would fail to achieve an advantage if ever. Just curious.

Just remember to play the red felt games at Trop. And avoid Tom. White guy, short hair, oldish, moustache.

Unfortunately didn't get to play the Trop but did well at 2 other places this past visit to AC. The one place the comps are still better for me than other places so I stay there like a king. However, I did venture over to Showboat to maintain my Reward status and played $25 table. Of course, ASM. Lost. 5 shoes and count maintained an average "house edge profit". I understand this isn't enough game play to accurately label ASM's as "fixed" but once again it left me with a poor experience as did Caesars during my previouus visit to AC.

May be a simple coincidence but I'm still suspicious of ASM's.

The 2 places I won at hand shuffled with about 25% pen, 8 deck. I never witnessed a dealer alter this pen even after tips and entertaining conversation. But I'm happy with the wins.

Will definitely try the Trop next time.