Blackjack Dealer errors

Hi,
In a recent session, I encountered a rather careless dealer. It was only a low stakes session in a barely open UK establishment and this guy made 3 mistakes that I noticed: Heaven knows how many I missed. I was playing minimum stakes with 1 to 3 other players.

Error 1: I coloured up to go outside briefly, after roughly tripling my very modest £xx buy in, and he undercounted my chips by £20. I said 'Woah there' before he put the stack of chips away and he recounted again correctly. That irritated me. The superviser wandered over, but nothing was said. had I been a bit more tired or sheepish, I would have been too late.

Error 2: He took away my chips on a push 17: Again I said woah and he gave me back the chips. only minimum stake but it all counts.

Error 3: He put about a deck of cards the wrong way up into the 6 deck auto shuffle shoe. This only got noticed when one card appeared face up. The supervisor said that the round must be played out. As only 1 card had come out face up, all at the table agreed to play one more round to see if it might just be one card wrong. I was rather hopeful that one further face up card would give me an edge, but as it happened, the next face up card was the dealers hole card and made no difference. The shoe was then reloaded. With hindsight, after the first up-facing card, and after the supervisor had permitted one more round, I could have increased my bet significantly and any win would have been honoured.

I've seen very few errors in my time playing, but it got me thinking about the practicality and morality of handling dealer errors as an AP. Simply highlighting those errors in the houses favour and not those in my favour could cancel out the house edge. I could even favour playing with the careless dealer, just as I favour the one that is slow to put the discard pack into the shoe.

I'm generally absurdly honest and I would normally point out all errors but this casino and this dealer were, quite frankly asking for it.

Any thoughts as to the moral dilemma? or even to the extent to which this could be enjoyed. I don't have religion :)

As an aside, in the first few hours of play when the whole casino has only maybe a dozen players, the atmosphere is wonderfully informal and casual with the supervisor only casually observing and chatting to dealer, colleagues and regulars: Perfect for practicing all aspects of the game.

There is nothing wrong with taking advantage of a casino's weak point. It's their responsibility to protect their game. With that being said: f*** 'em, fire away!!

Quote: RS

There is nothing wrong with taking advantage of a casino's weak point. It's their responsibility to protect their game. With that being said: f*** 'em, fire away!!

LOL. that is my thinking. No cheating, No collusion, No out and out chip stealing, but if I get overpaid or paid on a losing hand, I won't blush or complain. Only knowingly been overpaid on one hand where a rude regular was giving the dealer real stress. I felt sorry for the dealer who was doing his best to rise above it, but my sympathy didn't extend to the house.

I have been paid when I shouldn't have been many times. I have no way of knowing how many times I've been underpaid and not noticed.

I think exploiting up-facing cards could be hilarious. Has anyone any stats on that? Eg, assume that a shuffled 6 deck shoe has 2 decks inverted face up and that the next round WILL be honoured.

Why compute stats on it. you ain't gonna find many casinos stupid enough to do it.

Quote: FleaStiff

Why compute stats on it. you ain't gonna find many casinos stupid enough to do it.

I don't need many :p

I'm a member of two bricks and mortar casinos and have observed dealer errors in both in my very limited time as a member.

Here in the UK, away from the capital, the intensity of dealer training seems a little thin. Even minimum betters soon get welcomed as friends, or at least as friendly customers. As a newbie, I feel that I can build my standing/cover as a no-threat recreational punter.

At one venue, the dealers have practice/training sessions before and just after the start of the card playing day. That gives the opportunity to know which team members are new and to observe their strengths and weaknesses while drinking the free coffee. Indeed they have never objected to me watching them train. I can see value in that, even if I cannot measure it.

Quote: OnceDear

I've seen very few errors in my time playing, but it got me thinking about the practicality and morality of handling dealer errors as an AP. Simply highlighting those errors in the houses favour and not those in my favour could cancel out the house edge. I could even favour playing with the careless dealer, just as I favour the one that is slow to put the discard pack into the shoe.

I'm generally absurdly honest and I would normally point out all errors but this casino and this dealer were, quite frankly asking for it.

I believe that if you want to be a serious AP, Morality is not an issue worth considering. You either have the ability to rationalise taking advantage of any mistakes without pangs of guilt or conscience, or you dont. The practicality of it is pretty simple.

i am curious as to why you thought the dealer/casino were asking for it though.

I guess you are right about morality. However, I don't wish any ill effects on the dealer, such as dismisal, or even to the shareholders of the casino, which may include my own pension fund for all I know. Taking UNFAIR advantage of the casino would go against my personal morality code.

Quote: Croupier

i am curious as to why you thought the dealer/casino were asking for it though.

Good point. The dealer's tendency to short change me, intentionally or carelessly, brought out the urge to retaliate.

Don Johnson's big win had something to do with the slight advantage he would have over the house after including dealer errors. In the video, he boasts a little bit how he would bring three super hot girls, all of them very loud and having an almost forcefully good time. He would bring other onlookers to the table and make a big party scene of the whole thing. It's natural for dealers to get distracted and make mistakes. At the same time, he strongly emphasized how crucial it was for him to notice the mistakes that favored the house, even with all the distractions.

These errors happen all the time, and it's your duty to catch them when they work against you. On the other hand, if the mistakes favor you, say nothing. There is no morality here (if you really feel guilty, tip him on the next hand, though I think British games don't allow tipping, right?) I remember one dealer who, in the course of a single shoe, pushed my losing hand (I said nothing; neither did anyone at the table), paid me for a pushing hand, took my money away from my pushing hand (I pointed that one out and he apologized, nothing else was said), and flat out gave a lady who was coloring up and extra $50 by mistake. He was probably having a bad day - but as long as management can't show that he made these mistakes on purpose, there are few to no repercussions. I mean, when they introduced "free bet BJ" at Mohegan, dealers were handing out money on dealer 22s all the time! (according to the rules, dealer 22 pushes everything). Did they get fired? definitely not.

Another dealer I was having a lot of fun with accidentally drew two cards once and saw the first card he would have dealt me on the next round. I noticed. I casually asked him how lucky he was feeling if I were to tip him. He said "oh, yeah, lucky!" and boom, face card. He may have gotten into trouble if someone was right there observing him at that very instant, but I think my question was phrased innocently enough -- the guy could always claim he didn't see the card and just wanted a chance at a tip.

BTW, I tried that at a different casino once when the same thing happened, the dealer implied a good card was coming and it was a 4. I did not like him.

Like the dealer knows the difference between a good card and a bad card...

This would concern me a little. In my limited experience of almost a decade I've always noticed that the dealers I catch making errors are about 60/40 in favor of the player (I'd imagine new dealers don't want yelled at by their table so they're extra careful not to take a players money wrongfully), but none the less it could go either way. Three in a row for the house would raise a flag for me that perhaps this wasn't just an accident; especially in some "barely open UK establishment." I'd be on extra alert the next couple times you go there to be sure these were actually accidents.

As a side, the casino would certainly exploit you further if they could get away with it, just as it's my opinion you should grab up miss/over pays immediately. Worse that happens is they say they over paid you and you go back to the amount you would have had in front of you minus dealer mistakes.

Quote: Croupier

to be a serious AP, Morality is not an issue worth considering. You either have the ability to rationalise taking advantage of any mistakes without pangs of guilt or conscience, or you dont.

There are a few small casinos I play at where the game is carefully watched by surveillance. In the event of a dealer mistake (pay a push, push a take), surveillance will call the pit, and the supervisor will demand that the player return the mispay.

Obviously, that sucks for the player. I'm of the opinion that it's worse to have to give the money back 15 minutes later when the call comes, than to correct the mistake right away.

If I'm leaving right away, I might not correct the error before I go. I don't expect they'd track me down after I've left the table.

No pangs of guilt or conscience, I just don't want my game stopped later, taking me out of the zone and drawing scrutiny.

Quote: Dieter

There are a few small casinos I play at where the game is carefully watched by surveillance. In the event of a dealer mistake (pay a push, push a take), surveillance will call the pit, and the supervisor will demand that the player return the mispay.

Obviously, that sucks for the player. I'm of the opinion that it's worse to have to give the money back 15 minutes later when the call comes, than to correct the mistake right away.

If I'm leaving right away, I might not correct the error before I go. I don't expect they'd track me down after I've left the table.

No pangs of guilt or conscience, I just don't want my game stopped later, taking me out of the zone and drawing scrutiny.

Do they also call to correct errors that favor the house? If not, you should complain to whatever gaming commission regulates them, if any.

Where is this? Are you legally required to return the bet? If not, I probably wouldn't

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

Do they also call to correct errors that favor the house? If not, you should complain to whatever gaming commission regulates them, if any.

Where is this? Are you legally required to return the bet? If not, I probably wouldn't

I have never seen them correct an error that favors the house. I have seen errors that favor the house (one dealer underpaid $2.50 blackjacks until I pointed it out what she was doing was against house policy (policy was to round up to $4 (25 cent bonus for the toke box!), she was paying $3), and got it confirmed by the supervisor. It was her last day on the job, and she'd been underpaying her own tokes for a year. She looked a bit heartbroken when she realized the error.).

Indian casino*; tribe "regulates" themselves through their own gaming commission. Escalation process is to raise the dispute with the dealer, then the floor supervisor, then the shift supervisor, then the gaming commission.

I haven't read their gaming regulations enough to know if I'm required to return the overpay, but I have every expectation that my play would be discontinued if I refused.

Besides that, a gentleman honors his gambling debts. They're always quick to correct it when I point out a short pay or other mistake, be it on my spot or someone else's (barber pole insurance bets for less confuse a lot of the break-in dealers when they try to convert, instead of color-for-color).

If the house watches for overpays, we need to watch for short pays. If they catch overpays and demand they be corrected, we need to catch short pays and demand they be corrected. I'm just trying to do my part.

*The exact tribe, the where, etc... don't really matter, IMO, but they do use $2.50 chips. If you really need to know, PM.

Quote: Dieter

If the house watches for overpays, we need to watch for short pays. If they catch overpays and demand they be corrected, we need to catch short pays and demand they be corrected. I'm just trying to do my part.

Nonsense. When they let you record the game, go over the tapes, and come back to correct mistakes half an hour later, then it will be a level playing field. Until then, it sounds like they are trying to get freerolls on dealer errors. I would definitely complain and ask why they do not correct errors the other way since they watch everything so closely.

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

it sounds like they are trying to get freerolls on dealer errors.

Of course they are. It's almost like the game is rigged in their favor.

The reality is, most people watch to make sure their pays aren't short, and if they are, they demand they're fixed immediately.

Most of the time, the dealer pays it correctly, or catches the error before the cards are swept away and corrects it promptly.

Once in a while, the dealer overpays, the dealer and the floor don't catch it, and surveillance calls down. I think I've seen it happen 4 or 5 times over the past year.

Yeah, it sucks - but it's also the best game available within a 2 hour drive for a large section of the state. (2d, H17, 3:2, DA, DAS, Split to 3, x20 spread, 65-75% pen - cut card 3/4 to half a deck off the back, and I've never seen or heard of a backoff)

Of course, if you really want to, come up, play, and wait for a dealer error so you can complain.

I'm still of the opinion that I get hurt more by them stopping the game later than by the good will I cultivate by correcting the error up front. Since I have corrected a mistake in my favor here and there, I've found that they seem less worried that I'm trying to cheat them, and are more friendly about correcting the mistakes in their favor that I catch.

And... there shouldn't be any mistakes in the house's favor that the player doesn't catch. Everyone should be totalling their own hand, and the dealer's hand, and closely watching the pay/take. Heck, I even do that when I'm just walking by a table.

Quote: Dieter

Of course they are. It's almost like the game is rigged in their favor.

The reality is, most people watch to make sure their pays aren't short, and if they are, they demand they're fixed immediately.

In my experience, most players don't notice. I mean, they will notice if the dealer has T9 and they have TT and the dealer tries to take their money, but that is obvious and it would be rare for a dealer to screw that up. The hands that the dealers screw up are the 5 or 6 card hands, and the players aren't going to add it all up any better than the dealers are. I have pointed out errors against other players that the players themselves did not notice many times.

Quote:

And... there shouldn't be any mistakes in the house's favor that the player doesn't catch. Everyone should be totalling their own hand, and the dealer's hand, and closely watching the pay/take. Heck, I even do that when I'm just walking by a table.

They should be, but they aren't. Most players can't add up a 5 card hand before the dealer sweeps the cards away.

This is why I only play poker in Indian casinos. They regulate themselves and most have a per hand fee to play BJ. At least the ones in Oklahoma do. Louisiana Indian casinos don't charge the "fee" but they still regulate themselves. That's just not a situation I trust. But then, that's just me. I see a lot of people playing.

Quote: Dieter

I have never seen them correct an error that favors the house. I have seen errors that favor the house (one dealer underpaid $2.50 blackjacks until I pointed it out what she was doing was against house policy (policy was to round up to $4 (25 cent bonus for the toke box!), she was paying $3), and got it confirmed by the supervisor. It was her last day on the job, and she'd been underpaying her own tokes for a year. She looked a bit heartbroken when she realized the error.).

Around 2002 I was at NY NY where a dealer was overpaying the tokes.

I had $1 toke bets when I hit BJ. The normal procedure would be to put the $1 in the rack, and pay $2.50 into the toke box. This guy took the $1 AND the $2.50 and put them both in the toke box. After the second time he did this, I pointed out his error - when the floor person was on the other side of the pit. Once he realized what I was saying, he thanked me profusely.

I see a lot of errors on game variations-- Freebet BJ particularly, ranging from core rules, procedurals, or just plain weird.

Had a 5$ toke out when a free split/double came up. The dealer insisted that those were invalid for Freebet and I'd have to pay it myself. The floor manager was off doing something else and was unavailable for comment. We just sort of stared at it for an uncomfortably long pause before she realized I wasn't going to cover it. Usually, they get the floor manager to comment and are immediately appreciative since they haven't been doing it, or they just wave it off and ask the next time the floor manager passes by. This just went sour though.

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

I have pointed out errors against other players that the players themselves did not notice many times.

Me too. A 5 9 6 seems to be a common* one that people throw away; I try and stop it before the dealer scoops the chips into the tray. The dealers on the 2 deck games I play usually trust the players to be correct when they flip over a busted hand.

Quote: AxiomOf Choice

They should be, but they aren't. Most players can't add up a 5 card hand before the dealer sweeps the cards away.

This strikes me as odd. Perhaps, as with many of the best stories and police reports, "Alcohol was a contributing factor", and in the particular situation they were unable to count to 21 without removing their socks.




* OK, not all that common, but I've seen it a few times. I seem to notice a lot of problems with "Soft 31s" in general - or they're at the fore of my selective memory.

I think I'm competent at simple arithmetic. Complex arithmetic too.

But sit me down at a BJ table and I'm one of those guys that sometimes can't add three numbers. And it's got nothing to do with alcohol because I don't drink. I don't know if it's the noise, smoke, other people or simply because I have money on the line, but I spaz out on math when playing.

Counting the pips one at a time may contribute to your problem !

Quote: Venthus

I see a lot of errors on game variations-- Freebet BJ particularly, ranging from core rules, procedurals, or just plain weird.

Poor training and often its a penalty shift. A dealer who screws up in a "real" game gets sent to a penalty assignment for awhile where he has to deal Let It Ride or something else he finds too boring to even try to learn.

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

Most players can't add up a 5 card hand before the dealer sweeps the cards away.

I have enough trouble adding up a two card hand before the dealer sweeps it away.

Quote: FleaStiff

I have enough trouble adding up a two card hand

Someone should put together a chart that we could memorize...

I had one from Beat The Dealer , but it was cardboard and has disintegrated . SIGH

OK - I've done the calculations, and got it worked out.
If anyone wants a laminated card of this that you can use during actual casino play, PM me and we'll work something out.

cards	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9	10	J	Q	K	A
2	4	5	6	7	8	9	10	11	12	12	12	12	3 or 13
3	5	6	7	8	9	10	11	12	13	13	13	13	4 or 14
4	6	7	8	9	10	11	12	13	14	14	14	14	5 or 15
5	7	8	9	10	11	12	13	14	15	15	15	15	6 or 16
6	8	9	10	11	12	13	14	15	16	16	16	16	7 or 17
7	9	10	11	12	13	14	15	16	17	17	17	17	8 or 18
8	10	11	12	13	14	15	16	17	18	18	18	18	9 or 19
9	11	12	13	14	15	16	17	18	19	19	19	19	10 or 20
10	12	13	14	15	16	17	18	19	20	20	20	20	11 or 21
J	12	13	14	15	16	17	18	19	20	20	20	20	11 or 21
Q	12	13	14	15	16	17	18	19	20	20	20	20	11 or 21
K	12	13	14	15	16	17	18	19	20	20	20	20	11 or 21
A	3 or 13	4 or 14	5 or 15	6 or 16	7 or 17	8 or 18	9 or 19	10 or 20	11 or 21	11 or 21	11 or 21	11 or 21	2 or 12 or 22

This version doesn't include the suits of the cards, but I've got a full version of the chart that includes them, if you need it...
Stay tuned - I expect to have the intricate details of my exclusive "flat betting system" ready to publish soon.

... further proof that some people have way too much free time.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

... further proof that some people have way too much free time.

I don't even have enough free time to try to figure out what to do with this

Quote: chickenman

I don't even have enough free time to try to figure out what to do with this

I'd use it to illustrate the number of 10s in the deck: "It's safe to double 12v6 because there's only one card that can hurt you." "Yeah, except that one card is 4/13ths of the deck."

...Of course, if they didn't realize that already, showing them the blob of 20s in the corner probably won't make an impression either.

Quote: Venthus

Had a 5$ toke out when a free split/double came up. The dealer insisted that those were invalid for Freebet and I'd have to pay it myself. The floor manager was off doing something else and was unavailable for comment. We just sort of stared at it for an uncomfortably long pause before she realized I wasn't going to cover it. Usually, they get the floor manager to comment and are immediately appreciative since they haven't been doing it, or they just wave it off and ask the next time the floor manager passes by. This just went sour though.

Free bet done the right way:
$5 toke gets paid $10 for the double. Dealer win: $15

Free bet the way this dealer's trying to do it:
$5 toke must be matched for the double, gets paid $10. Dealer win: $20

Even if the free bet doesn't count for tokes, she's trying to hustle you into doubling her toke. That doesn't fly. No more tokes, and report her to the pit boss.