OnceDear
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OnceDear
Joined: Jun 1, 2014
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July 11th, 2014 at 11:59:27 AM permalink
Hi,
In a recent session, I encountered a rather careless dealer. It was only a low stakes session in a barely open UK establishment and this guy made 3 mistakes that I noticed: Heaven knows how many I missed. I was playing minimum stakes with 1 to 3 other players.

Error 1: I coloured up to go outside briefly, after roughly tripling my very modest £xx buy in, and he undercounted my chips by £20. I said 'Woah there' before he put the stack of chips away and he recounted again correctly. That irritated me. The superviser wandered over, but nothing was said. had I been a bit more tired or sheepish, I would have been too late.

Error 2: He took away my chips on a push 17: Again I said woah and he gave me back the chips. only minimum stake but it all counts.

Error 3: He put about a deck of cards the wrong way up into the 6 deck auto shuffle shoe. This only got noticed when one card appeared face up. The supervisor said that the round must be played out. As only 1 card had come out face up, all at the table agreed to play one more round to see if it might just be one card wrong. I was rather hopeful that one further face up card would give me an edge, but as it happened, the next face up card was the dealers hole card and made no difference. The shoe was then reloaded. With hindsight, after the first up-facing card, and after the supervisor had permitted one more round, I could have increased my bet significantly and any win would have been honoured.

I've seen very few errors in my time playing, but it got me thinking about the practicality and morality of handling dealer errors as an AP. Simply highlighting those errors in the houses favour and not those in my favour could cancel out the house edge. I could even favour playing with the careless dealer, just as I favour the one that is slow to put the discard pack into the shoe.

I'm generally absurdly honest and I would normally point out all errors but this casino and this dealer were, quite frankly asking for it.

Any thoughts as to the moral dilemma? or even to the extent to which this could be enjoyed. I don't have religion :)

As an aside, in the first few hours of play when the whole casino has only maybe a dozen players, the atmosphere is wonderfully informal and casual with the supervisor only casually observing and chatting to dealer, colleagues and regulars: Perfect for practicing all aspects of the game.
Beware. The earth is NOT flat. Hit and run is not a winning strategy: Pressing into trends IS not a winning strategy: Progressives are not a winning strategy: Don't Buy It! .Don't even take it for free.
RS
RS
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July 11th, 2014 at 12:04:18 PM permalink
There is nothing wrong with taking advantage of a casino's weak point. It's their responsibility to protect their game. With that being said: f*** 'em, fire away!!
OnceDear
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OnceDear
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July 11th, 2014 at 12:20:09 PM permalink
Quote: RS

There is nothing wrong with taking advantage of a casino's weak point. It's their responsibility to protect their game. With that being said: f*** 'em, fire away!!



LOL. that is my thinking. No cheating, No collusion, No out and out chip stealing, but if I get overpaid or paid on a losing hand, I won't blush or complain. Only knowingly been overpaid on one hand where a rude regular was giving the dealer real stress. I felt sorry for the dealer who was doing his best to rise above it, but my sympathy didn't extend to the house.
Beware. The earth is NOT flat. Hit and run is not a winning strategy: Pressing into trends IS not a winning strategy: Progressives are not a winning strategy: Don't Buy It! .Don't even take it for free.
AxiomOfChoice
AxiomOfChoice
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July 11th, 2014 at 12:25:00 PM permalink
I have been paid when I shouldn't have been many times. I have no way of knowing how many times I've been underpaid and not noticed.
OnceDear
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OnceDear
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July 11th, 2014 at 12:34:04 PM permalink
I think exploiting up-facing cards could be hilarious. Has anyone any stats on that? Eg, assume that a shuffled 6 deck shoe has 2 decks inverted face up and that the next round WILL be honoured.
Beware. The earth is NOT flat. Hit and run is not a winning strategy: Pressing into trends IS not a winning strategy: Progressives are not a winning strategy: Don't Buy It! .Don't even take it for free.
FleaStiff
FleaStiff
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July 11th, 2014 at 1:29:45 PM permalink
Why compute stats on it. you ain't gonna find many casinos stupid enough to do it.
OnceDear
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OnceDear
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July 11th, 2014 at 2:03:17 PM permalink
Quote: FleaStiff

Why compute stats on it. you ain't gonna find many casinos stupid enough to do it.



I don't need many :p

I'm a member of two bricks and mortar casinos and have observed dealer errors in both in my very limited time as a member.

Here in the UK, away from the capital, the intensity of dealer training seems a little thin. Even minimum betters soon get welcomed as friends, or at least as friendly customers. As a newbie, I feel that I can build my standing/cover as a no-threat recreational punter.

At one venue, the dealers have practice/training sessions before and just after the start of the card playing day. That gives the opportunity to know which team members are new and to observe their strengths and weaknesses while drinking the free coffee. Indeed they have never objected to me watching them train. I can see value in that, even if I cannot measure it.
Beware. The earth is NOT flat. Hit and run is not a winning strategy: Pressing into trends IS not a winning strategy: Progressives are not a winning strategy: Don't Buy It! .Don't even take it for free.
Croupier
Croupier
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July 11th, 2014 at 2:48:32 PM permalink
Quote: OnceDear



I've seen very few errors in my time playing, but it got me thinking about the practicality and morality of handling dealer errors as an AP. Simply highlighting those errors in the houses favour and not those in my favour could cancel out the house edge. I could even favour playing with the careless dealer, just as I favour the one that is slow to put the discard pack into the shoe.

I'm generally absurdly honest and I would normally point out all errors but this casino and this dealer were, quite frankly asking for it.



I believe that if you want to be a serious AP, Morality is not an issue worth considering. You either have the ability to rationalise taking advantage of any mistakes without pangs of guilt or conscience, or you dont. The practicality of it is pretty simple.

i am curious as to why you thought the dealer/casino were asking for it though.
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OnceDear
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OnceDear
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July 11th, 2014 at 3:07:11 PM permalink
I guess you are right about morality. However, I don't wish any ill effects on the dealer, such as dismisal, or even to the shareholders of the casino, which may include my own pension fund for all I know. Taking UNFAIR advantage of the casino would go against my personal morality code.

Quote: Croupier

i am curious as to why you thought the dealer/casino were asking for it though.



Good point. The dealer's tendency to short change me, intentionally or carelessly, brought out the urge to retaliate.
Beware. The earth is NOT flat. Hit and run is not a winning strategy: Pressing into trends IS not a winning strategy: Progressives are not a winning strategy: Don't Buy It! .Don't even take it for free.
arcticfun
arcticfun
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July 12th, 2014 at 10:13:56 AM permalink
Don Johnson's big win had something to do with the slight advantage he would have over the house after including dealer errors. In the video, he boasts a little bit how he would bring three super hot girls, all of them very loud and having an almost forcefully good time. He would bring other onlookers to the table and make a big party scene of the whole thing. It's natural for dealers to get distracted and make mistakes. At the same time, he strongly emphasized how crucial it was for him to notice the mistakes that favored the house, even with all the distractions.

These errors happen all the time, and it's your duty to catch them when they work against you. On the other hand, if the mistakes favor you, say nothing. There is no morality here (if you really feel guilty, tip him on the next hand, though I think British games don't allow tipping, right?) I remember one dealer who, in the course of a single shoe, pushed my losing hand (I said nothing; neither did anyone at the table), paid me for a pushing hand, took my money away from my pushing hand (I pointed that one out and he apologized, nothing else was said), and flat out gave a lady who was coloring up and extra $50 by mistake. He was probably having a bad day - but as long as management can't show that he made these mistakes on purpose, there are few to no repercussions. I mean, when they introduced "free bet BJ" at Mohegan, dealers were handing out money on dealer 22s all the time! (according to the rules, dealer 22 pushes everything). Did they get fired? definitely not.

Another dealer I was having a lot of fun with accidentally drew two cards once and saw the first card he would have dealt me on the next round. I noticed. I casually asked him how lucky he was feeling if I were to tip him. He said "oh, yeah, lucky!" and boom, face card. He may have gotten into trouble if someone was right there observing him at that very instant, but I think my question was phrased innocently enough -- the guy could always claim he didn't see the card and just wanted a chance at a tip.

BTW, I tried that at a different casino once when the same thing happened, the dealer implied a good card was coming and it was a 4. I did not like him.

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