Basic strategy variations for no peek rule?
Thks for helping.
Versus Upcard 10
Hit/Stand
16 0
15 4
Hit/Double
11 4
Early Surrender
17 5
16 -5
15 -2
14 0
13 3
12 8
For Upcard Ace the only that I have is:
Hit/Stand
A7 1
The most important are:
16 v 10 with Hit/Stand Index at 0
14 v 10 with Surrender index at 0
16
Quote: AceTwoES10, 6 Decks. Hi - Low Indeces
The most important are:
16 v 10 with Hit/Stand Index at 0
14 v 10 with Surrender index at 0
16
AceTwo,
According to Wong's book blackjack secrets he says to always surrender 16 v 10 at an ES10 game. And don't surrender 16 v 9 at index of 0.
But these rules are for peek blackjack. You can take Wong's numbers only if the dealer doesn't show 10 or ace, because it makes no difference. If he does then if there's no peek the rules must be different.
Quote: kimuraHi, thks for the answer.
But these rules are for peek blackjack. You can take Wong's numbers only if the dealer doesn't show 10 or ace, because it makes no difference. If he does then if there's no peek the rules must be different.
Have you carefully read Wong’s Professional Blackjack? Chapter 7 of this book is titled “No Hole Card”.
And AceTwo has pointed out correctly all the important indices for ENHC rules. And take into account Wong uses truncating (not flooring) approach.
Quote: nickolay411And don't surrender 16 v 9 at index of 0.
I don’t believe Wong has written this, besides for some camouflage reasons. Surrendering 16 vs 9 is basic strategy play.
Quote: VPRookieI don’t believe Wong has written this, besides for some camouflage reasons. Surrendering 16 vs 9 is basic strategy play.
Just double checked. Sorry at a TC of >=0 do surrender 16 v 9. Otherwise hit in an early surrender game.
Quote: FleaStiffI always thought a basic strategy variation was known as a hunch.
Not at all and the thread title may be a little misleading. There are basic strategy variations based on the rules of the particular game being played. For example, there will be basic strategy variations between S17 and H17 and variations between peek and no peek.
There are also basic strategy variations based on the count and I think that's what kimura is asking about. There doesn't appear to be an abundance of information on that regarding no peek blackjack.
Kimura, why not use the I18 and just ignore 10 vs 10, 10 vs A and 11 vs A? It may not be perfect but I would have no qualms with it.
Index Plays ES10:
Surrender:
16 vs 9 >=0
15 vs 9 >=2
15 vs 10 >=-2
13 vs 10 >=3
14 vs 10 >=0
8,8 vs 10 >=-2
7,7 vs 10 >=-2
Double Down:
11 vs A >=1
9 vs 2 >=1
8 vs 6 >=2
A,8 vs 6 >=1
A,8 vs 5 >=2
A,8 vs 4 >=3
A,7 vs 2 >=1
Standing:
A,7 vs A >=1
13 vs 2 >= -1
13 vs 3 >= -2
12 vs 2 >=3
12 vs 3 >=2
12 vs 4 >=0
12 vs 5 >=-2
12 vs 6 >=-1
Split:
4,4 vs 4 >=3
4,4 vs 5 >=-1
3,3 vs 2 >=0
I always thought a basic strategy variation was known as a hunch.
Not at all and the thread title may be a little misleading.
There are basic strategy variations based on the rules of the particular game being played.
There are also basic strategy variations based on the count and I think that's what kimura is asking about.
Yes, and let us not forget that in some situations the mathematically optimal selection which becomes the official Basic Strategy move is so very closely followed by an only slightly less optimal selection.
There are so many 'basic strategies', but for me, I never get beyond the simplest one.
Quote: kimuraThks for that. Actually I read blackjack secrets by Wong nothing about no peek. Will check this one hopefully it speaks about basic strategy variations.
Blackjack Secrets is more fun to read but doesn't have all the tables. Professional Blackjack is the reference book for pretty much every blackjack variation that existed up to that point. You need both books if you want immediate access to all the numbers
For all other Upcards ENHC and Hole card game is exactly the same.
Quote: AceTwoBy the way, I just wrote down the indices for for ENHC for 10,A.
For all other Upcards ENHC and Hole card game is exactly the same.
Also all indices involving hit vs. stand decisions are the same, even with those upcards.
Quote: KellynbnfAlso all indices involving hit vs. stand decisions are the same, even with those upcards.
Are they? You are probably right.
My game is ENHC so I I know these indices.
For the Hole card game, the changes are for Upcards 10,A and I have the Indices for that somewhere but can't be bother checking to find them.
The thing is that EVs for the ENHC and Hole card games are all different for Upcard 10,A including Hit and Stand decisions.
BUT, the difference between Hit and Stand for each Player Total (say against 10) is around the same between the 2 games.
So the Basic of Hit v Stand of the 2 games is the same as the important thing is the difference between Hit and Stand EV and not the absolute numbers of Evs.
And the same applies for indices.
BUT this is just a coincidence as the difference in the Stand v Hit Evs is only around the same and not exactly the same, so there could be a difference in indices.
Quote: AceTwoAre they? You are probably right.
My game is ENHC so I I know these indices.
For the Hole card game, the changes are for Upcards 10,A and I have the Indices for that somewhere but can't be bother checking to find them.
The thing is that EVs for the ENHC and Hole card games are all different for Upcard 10,A including Hit and Stand decisions.
BUT, the difference between Hit and Stand for each Player Total (say against 10) is around the same between the 2 games.
So the Basic of Hit v Stand of the 2 games is the same as the important thing is the difference between Hit and Stand EV and not the absolute numbers of Evs.
And the same applies for indices.
BUT this is just a coincidence as the difference in the Stand v Hit Evs is only around the same and not exactly the same, so there could be a difference in indices.
The EV values would be recorded differently if in the hole-card game they calculate it after the dealer checks for BJ, and if in the ENHC game the values are figured with the possibility of a dealer BJ. However, there would be no changes as to whether you should hit or stand with a particular hand (since regardless of your choice the EV is -1 if the dealer draws a BJ). Doubling and splitting are definitely affected, since instead of losing just one bet (EV -1) to a dealer BJ you'd lose two (EV -2) if you double or split (and with the latter it could be even more if you resplit or DAS if allowed).
Quote: AceTwoBy the way, I just wrote down the indices for for ENHC for 10,A.
For all other Upcards ENHC and Hole card game is exactly the same.
Ok thks.
Yes in wong's book these indices are the same for hole card game (15 vs 10 stand at 4 and 16 vs 10 stand above 0). Shall I know where did u get these numbers from?
And I think that u're right and kellynbnf is wrong. The indices could change for hit/stand decisions. It's because you have no such thing as EV if the dealer has BJ.
Quote: kimuraOk thks.
Yes in wong's book these indices are the same for hole card game (15 vs 10 stand at 4 and 16 vs 10 stand above 0). Shall I know where did u get these numbers from?
And I think that u're right and kellynbnf is wrong. The indices could change for hit/stand decisions. It's because you have no such thing as EV if the dealer has BJ.
The Wizard once told me that I'm right (he can explain it if he likes).
Quote: kimuraHi, does anyone here know how can I find basic strategy variations for the Hi Lo counting system for the no peek (european) style? I looked all over google, in books (Stanford wong, etc) asked questions, but could never find that.
Thks for helping.
You find it right here in the Wizard website.
https://wizardofodds.com/games/blackjack/strategy/european/
As for counting the Wizard has a link to an Australian writer but you have to buy her book.
But counting is out of the question as everywhere in the world outside the US they all use the CSM
Quote: kimuraOk thks.
Yes in wong's book these indices are the same for hole card game (15 vs 10 stand at 4 and 16 vs 10 stand above 0). Shall I know where did u get these numbers from?
I think, originally I got them from Wong's book. And then over the years I made slight changes from other resources. I have a lot of info in various excel files that I have done over the years and I rarely look up anything from books (I have a big collection of books)
Quote: kimura
And I think that u're right and kellynbnf is wrong. The indices could change for hit/stand decisions. It's because you have no such thing as EV if the dealer has BJ.
Actually now that I think more about it, I think he is right. I remember now looking at something like this in the past.
My comment that the EV differrence between Hit and Stand in the 2 games is different is correct.
But the EV difference is compared at different bases (denominators) in the two games. If the EV, say for the Hole card game is adjusted to be before checking for BJ, then the 2 EVs would be the same.
Quote: Deck007
But counting is out of the question as everywhere in the world outside the US they all use the CSM
So all these years, I must have been counting in a different planet!
Quote: AceTwoI think, originally I got them from Wong's book. And then over the years I made slight changes from other resources. I have a lot of info in various excel files that I have done over the years and I rarely look up anything from books (I have a big collection of books)
Actually now that I think more about it, I think he is right. I remember now looking at something like this in the past.
My comment that the EV differrence between Hit and Stand in the 2 games is different is correct.
But the EV difference is compared at different bases (denominators) in the two games. If the EV, say for the Hole card game is adjusted to be before checking for BJ, then the 2 EVs would be the same.
Wong's numbers are based upon his software that calculates optimal decision indices so you're saying his software is wrong?
As for the difference between the ENHC and hole card games is concerned, the decision hit/stand you take it after the dealer checks for BJ in hole card game. So it doesn't make any sense an EV before the checks for BJ, because we are speaking about hit/stand decisions EV.
The strategy variations therefore are:
Surrender all 14-16 vs 10, including 88 and 77
Hit 88 vs A
Hit hard 11 vs 10
Hit AA vs A
Quote: AceTwoES10, 6 Decks. Hi - Low Indeces
Versus Upcard 10
Hit/Stand
16 0
15 4
Hit/Double
11 4
Early Surrender
17 5
16 -5
15 -2
14 0
13 3
12 8
For Upcard Ace the only that I have is:
Hit/Stand
A7 1
The most important are:
16 v 10 with Hit/Stand Index at 0
14 v 10 with Surrender index at 0
16
Great! I bought professional blackjack and found these same exact indices except for 11 vs 10 double at 3. As for the surrender didn't look that up since I don't have this rule available for my game.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceI'm not sure if this is a true story, but someone once told me about a casino in the Czech Republic that allowed "early surrender", which (at this place) meant that if you wanted to surrender you had to surrender before anyone else acted. So if you were at 3rd base and you wanted to surrender, you had to yell out "surrender!" before the guy at first base took a card.
Yes, correct for some places in Czech Reoublic and many other places in other countries. That's one reason to play 1st base in these places so you do not forget to surrender.
Thay can of use the same rule like Insurance, ie Insurance before any player receives a 3rd card (I think that is standrad everywehere including US).
The connection with Insurance can also be seen from the following. in a ES10 game, If the delear has Ace and you ask to surrender, he will tell you you cannot but can Insure instead (as if somehow they 2 are related).
Quote: kimura
Great! I bought professional blackjack and found these same exact indices except for 11 vs 10 double at 3. As for the surrender didn't look that up since I don't have this rule available for my game. .
If I remember correctly (it was a long time ago) that was one of the indices that I changed from other resources.
Different BJ authors have calculated different indices, partly because of different methodology of rounding indices (ie rounding, truncating etc).
Also other factors might come up when calculating indices, ie level of pen used in sims, method of calculating TC (ie full feck, 1/2 deck, 1/4 deck) etc.
BUt most of the indices agree with all authors methdodology and some differ by one.
It's all splitting hairs in my opinion. At the index number the difference between the 2 options (say stand/hit) is very small so it does not make much difference. Is when the TC has some distance from the index that it makes a big difference.
And to be honest sometimes when exactly on the index, I like to gamble, meaning I might play the Basic Strategy and not change to the index strategy.
Quote: AceTwoThay can of use the same rule like Insurance, ie Insurance before any player receives a 3rd card (I think that is standrad everywehere including US).
In the US they take a hole card and check for blackjack, so you have to insure before they check (if they have a blackjack, no one gets a chance to take a 3rd card)
