Average House Edge for non-strategy player?

Hi everyone,

I was reading about the changes happening regarding blackjack at many casinos in LV, like the switch to 6:5 instead of 3:2 and the impact on house edge. It made me start thinking of what the house edge for non strategy players would be...

With regards to a strategy player, for a six deck game, H17, DAS, RSA, and surrender, with 3:2 BJ, the edge is approximately 0.48%.

What would the resulting house edge be for a strategy deviating player, for example, one who hits instead of doubling, splits 10s, and doesn't surrender?

Could a strategy deviating player affect the house edge so much on his/her play to approach the levels of 6:5 BJ or higher?

Thank you!

I think it's be better to look at more common deviations from basic strategy like:
Never surrenders.
Never hits soft 18.
Does not split 8/9 against 9/10/A.
Does not double low soft hands against 5/6.
Doubles 10 against A.

Things like splitting 10s, typical players don't do ("A 20 is a sure win already!"), at least in my experience. Or those that do, at least, know they're walking into a minefield.

Many players play much worse than one would think. Many don't do the ridiculous things like splitting Ts or doubling hard hands (although it does happen). But imagine the players who don't hit 15 or 16 -- MANY PEOPLE!! the ones who don't double or who don't hit 12v2/3. My guess is they play much worse than the 6:5 difference. In other words, 6:5 is the least of their worries!

On the WoO website, the Wiz has an appendix where he lists out a lot of play variations. The effect is additive, so it's possible you could pick the rules you chose not to follow, add them up (or subtract the effect of say, standing vs. hitting 16, where he lists both somewhere) and figure out just how bad each non-BS play affects your EV.

Even then you are only getting the house edge for the first few hands. After drinks are served and opinions of others are voiced the play is likely to worsen. Many people like to emulate the old house rules: Draw to 16 and stand on all 17s. Well that is great for the house, not the player.

Game popularity ebbs and flows. Now that casinos are no longer "just in Vegas" but are "just about everywhere" casinos must provide a mix of games and accommodate new trends amongst players.

Gotcha.

Thanks everyone. Didn't know the wizard had an additive appendix of variations.

I've had other players trash me before for playing strategy and even so much as threaten me to change my play. Why should I change my play to an incorrect one? It's my money. Not theirs.

Quote: Venthus

I think it's be better to look at more common deviations from basic strategy like:
Never surrenders.
Never hits soft 18.
Does not split 8/9 against 9/10/A.
Does not double low soft hands against 5/6.
Doubles 10 against A.

Things like splitting 10s, typical players don't do ("A 20 is a sure win already!"), at least in my experience. Or those that do, at least, know they're walking into a minefield.

I wonder about the splitting tens when the dealer has a 5 or 6 showing. With a hard ten the best play would be to double, and with the high degree of likelihood that the dealer will bust - why not split tens vs. a 5 or 6 and just stand on whatever you get? Is that not a good way to add another high-probability bet vs. the poor dealer hand.

Quote: TerribleTom

I wonder about the splitting tens when the dealer has a 5 or 6 showing. With a hard ten the best play would be to double, and with the high degree of likelihood that the dealer will bust - why not split tens vs. a 5 or 6 and just stand on whatever you get? Is that not a good way to add another high-probability bet vs. the poor dealer hand.

First, that "high degree of likelihood" is always under 50% (without information about the count).

Second, the reason that you don't split them is because the 20 wins so often against a 5 or a 6 that it's very, very expensive to break it up. It is nothing like doubling on a 10, because you don't need to throw away a (very valuable) 20 in order to double a 10. If you had a choice between doubling a 10 or taking a guaranteed 20 for a single bet, the guaranteed 20 would be the better play. When you are dealt a 10, you don't have that option, so you take the doubled 10.

Yeah, without looking at the math, it's like doubling on a BJ: your "cost" is that you're destroying a 'very good' for a 'decent' with more variation.

Quote: jjdemick

I've had other players trash me before for playing strategy and even so much as threaten me to change my play. Why should I change my play to an incorrect one? It's my money. Not theirs.

In theory you should be able to do whatever you want (even split 10's).

As you probably noticed from the appendix, you must be a really poor player to lower house edge to the point of 6:5 blackjack.

Quote: TerribleTom

I wonder about the splitting tens when the dealer has a 5 or 6 showing. With a hard ten the best play would be to double, and with the high degree of likelihood that the dealer will bust - why not split tens vs. a 5 or 6 and just stand on whatever you get? Is that not a good way to add another high-probability bet vs. the poor dealer hand.

For S17 shoes, the dealer will break roughly 43% of the time when showing a 5 or 6 which is why I don't recommend splitting 10s for non counters. For the counter there is an index for that play where it becomes an advantage. Plus it's fun!