Holding on to casino chips

Anyone here ever go home with chips instead of cash? It seems like a simple way to avoid dealing with cash until you need to -- I generally keep gambling money separate from everything else. As far as heat goes, are there any obvious disadvantages to doing so? I would imagine if they run your player card and saw that you didn't recently buy in for chips, they would ask questions?

The chips are only good at the casino. If you don't live around the block from the issuing casino you are SOL if you need quick cash from those chips. Cash is good everywhere. You can never be sure you will return to the casino, or that the casino will still be in business.

If you take enough low denomination chips out of circulation, that can create a problem for a casino.

The Joker's Wild recently ran out of $0.25 chips.

About the same time they started selling volume on E-bay for prices below what the Joker's Wild probably pays for these chips.

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_sop=16&_from=R40&_sacat=0&_nkw=jokers+wild+chip&LH_Complete=1&rt=nc

Quote: arcticfun

Anyone here ever go home with chips instead of cash? It seems like a simple way to avoid dealing with cash until you need to -- I generally keep gambling money separate from everything else. As far as heat goes, are there any obvious disadvantages to doing so? I would imagine if they run your player card and saw that you didn't recently buy in for chips, they would ask questions?

All the time. I always wong in with chips instead of cash.

OK let me be more specific. I was asking about holding onto chips on the order of months (not years) - chances are, they will still be valid at the house you got them from, correct? I mean high-denom chips, the same you would get after coloring up, but you just bypass the chip-to-cash transaction before you leave and, on your next arrival, the cash-to-chip exchange at the table.

Would you go home with a blue chip ($5k) instead of a stack of $100s if you plan on coming back to the casino in less than a month?

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Quote: arcticfun

... chances are, [the chips] will still be valid at the house you got them from, correct?

That's a gamble. The casino might not be happy to have old debts waltz back into the casino if the amount is high.

Obvious disadvantages are losing a small $5k chip. If you're keeping it home it might be possible to lose or even have somebody steal it.

Also if you're talking about waiting months and you just show up with a $5k chip you might get some heat. The casinos are obligated to fill out suspicious activity reports, and somebody showing up with a $5k chip and no recent play history does seem suspicious. I'd imagine you definitely need to provide ID even for $5k

Obviously there are other factors -- do you play on credit, are you known, are you an AP, etc. I go home with chips (black & purple) all the time without cashing them. I live in Vegas, though.

On my most recent trip to Vegas, 3 different places asked me where I got the purple chip(s) I was cashing. I'm pretty sure "I brought it from home" would not have been a satisfactory answer. At GVR, they held up the pay until surveillance verified that I'd colored up to purple before leaving the table 2 minutes earlier.

There is little risk. Casinos have to publish a Notice of Intent to Withdraw Chips and allow a certain period of time to elapse. They have a right to do it but are unlikely to do it often.

I'd be more concerned with transporting gambling chips or lottery tickets across a state line or onto federal property. I've not checked the statutes recently and I'm sure it goes on frequently but who knows what laws are still on the books for some dumb TSA agent to suddenly enforce? Why be a test case? What do you gain by it?

Having the chips at home does not mean you will return to the casino sooner than you would otherwise.

Quote: rdw4potus

On my most recent trip to Vegas, 3 different places asked me where I got the purple chip(s) I was cashing. I'm pretty sure "I brought it from home" would not have been a satisfactory answer. At GVR, they held up the pay until surveillance verified that I'd colored up to purple before leaving the table 2 minutes earlier.

Common practice at sawdust joints. Even big places will call up the gaming pit for a couple of yellow chips, though.

Quote: AcesAndEights

Common practice at sawdust joints. Even big places will call up the gaming pit for a couple of yellow chips, though.

So what happens when/if surveillance says "hey! That dude just walked in the door!" Do they pay anyway since it's clearly an authentic chip? Or do they deny the exchange?

Quote: rdw4potus

So what happens when/if surveillance says "hey! That dude just walked in the door!" Do they pay anyway since it's clearly an authentic chip? Or do they deny the exchange?

Just a hunch, but they may want to hold up paying until they can verify you didn't pick the chip(s} off the floor. So, for the small convenience of not cashing the chips when you leave you might risk a major pain in the ass using them on your next visit.

Quote: BleedingChipsSlowly

Just a hunch, but they may want to hold up paying until they can verify you didn't pick the chip(s} off the floor. So, for the small convenience of not cashing the chips when you leave you might risk a major pain in the ass using then on your next visit.

This is exactly my thought too. You put it into words better than I did

Holding anything above purple chips carries big risk. If you must hold chips, hold blacks, that's the best option.
Green is safe, but you need too many.

I once took fifty dollars worth of reds on a plane simply because I failed to check the compartment in my luggage where I had hidden the chips from the hotel maid.

At my level of gambling I don't see Pumpkins or Barneys very often and I would never knowingly take them away from the casino because bring them back may involve verification and identity checks. The casino can simply give you a receipt for your chips but not redeem them if they allege your possession of them can not be verified. Its an unusual procedure but its meant to stop stolen chips from being cashed immediately. If you can come up with dates, times and games wherein you won the chips that is a good start. Someone dressed as a hooker would probably have some trouble cashing a Barney even if she "earned" it but didn't win it.

Of course you can use a beard to cash chips and I think Brother Chip is still around he deals in Foreign Chips and chips from church collection plates. The casinos used to deal with him but I don't think they do any longer.

Any way, it is best to color up and not take chips with you if you leave town. Probably nothing much will happen if you do, but it is unwise. You don't earn interest on the loan you are making to the casino. So why do it at all.

If you're not an AP there is really no reason to hang on to them.

there is a popular story about Nolan Dalla and MGM not cashing his chips. Here is an exert from a forum from 2007.

"A few years ago, the entrance to the MGM Grand casino was quite literally -- a lion’s mouth. Gamblers trekked right into the underbelly of a giant feline which, at least symbolically, consumed and digested all who entered the passageway between her golden jaws. On February 10, 2007 I walked into the MGM Grand in Las Vegas. I could not possibly have foreseen the lion’s mouth into which I was entering, nor the public controversy that was about to follow.

Once inside the colossal MGM, which justly bills itself “The City of Entertainment,” I went to the sportsbook. I cashed a winning sports ticket and collected $1,050. Next, I hiked over to the main casino cage to cash a $5,000 MGM gaming chip. What follows is a verbatim recollection of the conversation which took place at approximately 2 pm that afternoon:

Nolan Dalla: Hi, I would like to cash this $5,000 casino chip.
Cashier: What game did you get this chip from?
Nolan Dalla: I did not get the chip from a gaming table. I’ve had it at my home for some time.
Cashier: Why did you have it at your home?
Nolan Dalla: I do not come into the MGM very often. It’s been sitting there about a month or so, but I want to cash it since I’m here today.
Cashier: Are you a player here?
Nolan Dalla: Yes, I have a “One Club Card.” I do not have my card with me, but here is my ID (shows valid driver’s license).
Cashier: (Looks up status and level of play on computer) Mr. Dalla, I do not show that you have any recent table-game activity.
Nolan Dalla: Yes, that’s correct. But, I am an MGM customer. I play poker here, bet on sports, and play some video poker.
Cashier: I’ll be right back (Cashier goes over to Cage Manager. A few minutes pass. Cage Manager approaches window).
Cage Manager: Sir, we have a problem. You say you did not get this from a gaming table here at the MGM?
Nolan Dalla: That’s correct. It’s been sitting at my home. I obtained the chip at the Bellagio Poker Room about a month ago from a friend.
Cage Manager: Why did he give it to you?
Nolan Dalla: He owed me some money so I accepted the chip from him. Casino chips are frequently passed around in the high-limit section at the Bellagio Poker Room. This is nothing unusual.
Cage Manager: Yes it is. You are not supposed to cash someone else’s chip. Who does the chip belong to?
Nolan Dalla: It belongs to me.
Cage Manager: Who did the chip belong to before you got it?
Nolan Dalla: It belonged to (name of person). He lives in (another state).
Cage Manager: (Looks up name of player on computer) I see that (name of person) has not been rated at the MGM in years.
Nolan Dalla: I know nothing about his level of play. I do know he plays regularly and stays at the Bellagio. Isn’t the Bellagio an MGM-Mirage property?
Cage Manager: Yes, but that’s irrelevant.
Nolan Dalla: Is it irrelevant that I have never had a problem exchanging or cashing chips at the Bellagio in the past? In fact, I’ve never had any problem cashing chips anywhere in Las Vegas before.
Cage Manager: We have our own policy at the MGM. They should not allow exchanging chips over there either.
Nolan Dalla: Okay, so what does all this mean?
Cage Manager: It means I am not going to cash this chip. In fact, I am going to confiscate it.
Nolan Dalla: Confiscate it? On what basis?
Cage Manager: We do not cash any chip unless we can verify their source.
Nolan Dalla: So, is your policy that you will not cash a one-dollar ship unless someone can prove where they obtained it?
Cage Manager: Well, we only ask questions about our large denomination chips.
Nolan Dalla: Let me be perfectly clear. I am an MGM customer. I produced a valid ID. I told you where I got the chip. In fact, I got it at another MGM property which has never refused to cash chips of this size. I have never heard of a licensed Nevada casino refusing to pay a customer.
Cage Manager: There is nothing I can do unless you can prove that the chip is rightfully yours and that you got it from one of our gaming tables (he gives a receipt which records that the chip was officially confiscated at the MGM)."
Imagine – going into a casino and having your chip snatched up by the cashier! When confronted with such an astonishing deed, one has different reactions. After my emotional outrage subsided, a more practical response came over me which sought answers. In retrospect, there are many things I could have done differently. Initially, I might not have accepted the chip from my friend. Perhaps I should have gambled at the MGM for a few minutes and broken down the chip into smaller denominations. It’s even been suggested by some who already know about this story that I could have lied and told the cashier that I gambled at the MGM and got the chip at a gaming table.

But I don’t like lies. I especially despise the notion of telling them. After all, I’ve done nothing wrong here. I voluntarily took possession of a casino chip, which is a common practice inside Las Vegas poker rooms and sportsbooks. High-stakes professional poker players and serious sports bettors are involved in a legitimate cash-based business. This includes backing, lending, and other perfectly legal and customary transactions between players. Are casino chips exchanged in legitimate backing deals between poker players now to be subject to confiscation? These are serious questions with far-reaching potential implications for hundreds if not thousands of players.

A bit of history is in order. The practice of exchanging chips is not restricted to casinos. It is a 70-year-old practice that dates back to the days when gamblers did not want to carry large amounts of cash on their person. Virtually every serious gambler in Las Vegas has carried around large denomination chips, and sometimes, even exchanged them with fellow players. Many casino poker games have included an odd chip or two in the pot from a stray casino. As recently as a few years ago, chips from the Mirage and Bellagio casinos were traded openly in high-limit poker games at Binion’s Horseshoe. There was a time when casino chips were even used at local grocery stores to buy milk and bread. They were used in restaurants to pay for meals. Casino chips were even dropped into the collection plate at local churches. Casino chips have been Las Vegas’ unofficial “currency” since gambling was legalized in 1931. You can’t exchange a dollar bill for silver or gold bullion anymore, but an honest gambler could always rely on getting paid in cash if and when he went to a Las Vegas casino with a chip in his hand.

Not anymore.

The era when the customer was king all but ended on February 10, 2007. For years, card-counters and so-called “advantage players” have been hassled by casinos and were even sometimes refused payment on their winnings. Nevada attorney Bob Nersesian, who has represented many professional gamblers in lawsuits with casinos, wrote some very good advice in his book “Beat the Players.” His book provides a checklist in case if what to do when a casino refuses to pay a player.

Unfortunately, I read Nersesian’s advice after the incident. Nonetheless, I followed his recommendation and immediately contacted the Nevada Gaming Board. The NGB is a public institution entrusted with the important task of enforcing state gaming laws. In essence, the NGB is the only organization with the power to force a casino into paying off a customer. I hoped and trusted that the NGB would investigate the matter, and rule in my favor.

If the MGM’s refusal to cash my $5,000 chip was a slap in the face, my visit to the NGB in Las Vegas was a punch in the stomach. Upon my arrival, a Gaming Enforcement Agent took me into a small room. I was interviewed for approximately 20 minutes. It was explained to me there was nothing the NGB could, nor would do on my behalf (Note: For a more detailed report of my interview with the NGB, please see the latest edition of The Intelligent Gambler).

When the Las Vegas Sun heard about my story and published an article on March 9, 2007 (“Chips no longer good as cash,” by reporter Liz Benston), I expected the MGM Grand to finally come to its senses. Jeopardizing the public’s trust can’t possibly be good for business. After all, a customer must have confidence in the unwritten and unspoken bond which exists between casino and player -- that the bearer of a chip will get rightfully paid when that time comes. Several gambling forums (including 2+2) lit up with news that I had been stiffed by the MGM. I heard from some gamblers who stated they would not play at that casino again. Sadly, throughout the entire ordeal the MGM has ignored this story, hoping (I presume) that it will disappear and fade away.

Well, this story will not fade away. It’s important for five-thousand very good reasons, and more. This controversy centers on matters far more meaningful than money, and that is principle. It is about the standards and practices of a powerful billion dollar industry and the rights of all gamblers. It begs the central question – do gamblers have rights? To take such a draconian measure as confiscating a casino chip, must a casino prove criminal activity -- or at least have justifiable concerns based on Suspicious Activity Reports (SARs) or knowledge that the player is part of an ongoing investigation? Aren’t customers and gamblers are entitled to the benefit of the doubt? With so much money potentially at stake each time a customer goes to the cashier, the burden of proof should be on the casino to prove wrongdoing, not the other way around. It is not up to the gambler to prove he is innocent. What kind of system of justice would that be? In tourist-dependent Las Vegas, is it now up to gamblers to prove the source of each and every casino chip when asked?

Since I am not a criminal, nor are there any indications I am a target of suspicion, it appears the MGM Grand’s sole reason for refusing to cash my chip is based on aggressive enforcement of the (little-known) rule that the chip must have been purchased from or won from the MGM. Everyone involved knows that the chip likely came from a gaming table, months ago. But since it is difficult (if not impossible) to prove that now, the MGM gets to keep the money. How convenient for them. Do you think they might take a different approach if the regulations required them to immediately turn the money over the government or the Nevada Gaming Board rather than keeping it? Rest assured, MGM corporate stockholders -- the next quarterly report will have an extra $5,000 in the kitty.

Can this nightmare happen to you? Perhaps, yes. My advice to anyone who gambles in Las Vegas, particularly at the MGM Grand, is the following:


(1) Always have your play tracked at any gaming table. That way, the casino has a record of your visit. If you wish to gamble anonymously, then find somewhere else to play.

(2) Following a session, immediately cash out all chips. Do not remove any chips from the casino.

(3) Do not exchange or accept chips with other gamblers. One of you risks not getting paid.

(4) Never accept a “color up.” Large denomination chips may ignite an inquiry at the cage. Don’t risk it.

(5) Always be truthful when asked questions. Telling the truth has not served me well in this matter, but it’s better than getting caught in a lie, which can jeopardize getting paid.

It is a sobering blow to witness such a profitable and powerful corporation resorting to such petty tactics. It is particularly disconcerting to someone who loves living in Las Vegas and working in the casino industry to be the subject of such technicalities and abuse of power. It’s even more distressing to learn that the government body entrusted to protect my rights seems utterly disinterested in doing what is right.

If it can happen to me, it can certainly happen to you. Indeed, the profound words of playwright Paddy Chayefsky were never so fitting in describing today’s casino industry when he wrote “Network” back in 1976. He could have just as easily been talking the MGM’s corporate attitude today and the extinction of rights of individual gamblers:

What is finished is the idea that this great country is dedicated to the freedom and flourishing of every individual in it. It’s the individual that’s finished. It’s the single solitary human being that’s finished. It’s every single one of you out there that’s finished. Because this is no longer a nation of independent individuals. It’s a nation of 200-odd million transistorized, deodorized, whiter-than-white, steel-belted bodies – totally unnecessary as human beings and as replaceable as piston rods.

This article written by Nolan Dalla. 2+2 Internet Magazine.

Quote: arcticfun

OK let me be more specific. I was asking about holding onto chips on the order of months (not years) - chances are, they will still be valid at the house you got them from, correct? I mean high-denom chips, the same you would get after coloring up, but you just bypass the chip-to-cash transaction before you leave and, on your next arrival, the cash-to-chip exchange at the table.

Would you go home with a blue chip ($5k) instead of a stack of $100s if you plan on coming back to the casino in less than a month?

I think this is terrible idea for multiple reasons. The biggest one, which is already being pointed out, is that you are risking it not being honored. What's your argument going to be--I don't have to act like any other reasonable person would by cashing it out before I leave, or I was trying to avoid suspicion of laundering...? Theft is another issue. Easier to steal, or even lose, a million dollar chip than a briefcase chained to your wrist.

Card counters and AP's often keep an inventory of chips from different casinos. In my own case, my partner and I have a fairly large inventory of chips from many of the casinos in our regular rotation. There are several advantages to this, like avoiding cashouts after a decent win. The camera at the cashier cage are often the one's that get the best shot of a player, so we can avoid that if the casino is trying to identify us.

A second advantage is eliminating buy-ins. Buy-in's is the first time that you draw attention to yourself. The pit is usually required to stop what they are doing and 'OK' the buy-in, and of course take note of you. If you walk up with chips and start playing, you have eliminated this first attention draw. At that point the first time that I draw attention is when I start to raise my wager, in which, I will be exiting soon after, so bringing chips to the tables kind of shortens the whole window of opportunity for the casino.

In our particular case, the chip inventory responsibility falls to my partner. There were times last year, when he didn't do such a good job. There were times that I was 'cash poor' but had a whole freaking scrub bucket full of casino chips. Lol. But as time has gone on, he has gotten better at chip inventory. Ideally, you want enough to walk up and start playing, but not too much of any one location. We only keep green and black in inventory to avoid any cashout problem, when he does cash the chips.

OK so it sounds like high-denom chips aren't worth the risks, but keeping black and under is OK. Good to hear everyone's thoughts.

Last summer my brother left a BJ table with $5K. They gave him 5 yellows he said he wanted a $5K chip, they told he he'll have trouble cashing it, he said he wanted to take a pick of it ect. We get the chip, and it take it directly to the cage, it takes about 20 mins to get it cashed.

Quote: iamthepush

Last summer my brother left a BJ table with $5K. They gave him 5 yellows he said he wanted a $5K chip, they told he he'll have trouble cashing it, he said he wanted to take a pick of it ect. We get the chip, and it take it directly to the cage, it takes about 20 mins to get it cashed.

This really depends on the casino. They will usually just ask for my players card and check to see that I had a rating at that table that makes sense. If not they will call the pit. It has never taken 20 min though.

Sometimes they will do the same for $1k chips.

I never knew there were so many chip disputes. In view of this thread's content I would say it is unwise to ever hoard chips even for a brief period of time. You can collect chips in which case you are making a loan to the casino that it will never repay but unless its for your collection, gamble with it or cash it in promptly.

I cashed 13 green chips at Joker's Wild and the cage girl had to call the pit. That's right. $325 and she has to make a phone call!

The delay was less than a minute but it shows that you shouldn't hang on to them.

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Quote: Ibeatyouraces

Green there is comparable to the chocolate chips at Bellagio.

There are chocolate chips at Bellagio? What are they worth? $100,000?

Quote: Deucekies

There are chocolate chips at Bellagio? What are they worth? $100,000?

Isn't "chocolate chips" always $5k? They are that light brown color.

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Quote: Ibeatyouraces

That or gray. I refuse $1000+ chips at any MGM property. Purple is my limit with them.

I've never had an issue. But I'm playing rated.

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

That or gray. I refuse $1000+ chips at any MGM property. Purple is my limit with them.

Can I ask why? Do you hold on to them and not want to draw attention when buying in three weeks after your original play, or have you experienced some sort of Spanish Inquisition when cashing them in?

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Quote: DJTeddyBear

I cashed 13 green chips at Joker's Wild and the cage girl had to call the pit. That's right. $325 and she has to make a phone call!

The delay was less than a minute but it shows that you shouldn't hang on to them.

You're the reason why they took out the Penthouse suite there!

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

Isn't "chocolate chips" always $5k? They are that light brown color.

$5k chips are called flags at Bellagio and are white with red and blue border.

The incident with me and my bro happened at Bellagio

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At marginal places such as Jokers Wild or Emerald Isle the cashier will call the pit for just about any amount that is over 500.00, but its just a routine practice, it doesn't mean the casino is in financial trouble.

I think it unwise to hold onto chips particular high denomination chips and do not see where a player gains anything by doing it.

The cashier can call the Pit Boss and describe you if you've just won the chips, but how is the PitBoss going to remember anything if a few weeks have elapsed. Sure they have tapes but they are in some storage locker and the casino is not inclined to search through them looking for you.

Now if its a momento fine or if its a matter of a day or so, probably fine too. Remember it is a crime to use a gambling chip as if it were currency. If a bartender accepts a gambling token as payment for a drink, the last thing he wants to see is the bar patron whipping out a Secret Service badge. The chips should never be traded in return for existing debts amongst friends.

Quote: FleaStiff

Now if its a momento fine or if its a matter of a day or so, probably fine too. Remember it is a crime to use a gambling chip as if it were currency. If a bartender accepts a gambling token as payment for a drink, the last thing he wants to see is the bar patron whipping out a Secret Service badge. The chips should never be traded in return for existing debts amongst friends.

Oh seriously? At MS I asked if I could pay with chips at a restaurant and they said fine --- maybe because it's within the same property? or a NV vs CT rule?

Quote: arcticfun

Oh seriously? At MS I asked if I could pay with chips at a restaurant and they said fine --- maybe because it's within the same property? or a NV vs CT rule?

Mohegan Sun is a native tribe. They make their own rule.

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Casino Chips are not Legal Tender in the United States.

Quote: GWAE

there is a popular story about Nolan Dalla and MGM not cashing his chips. Here is an exert from a forum from 2007.

Does anyone know if Nolan Dalla ever got his money back? It seems pretty clear that MGM Grand was technically following the letter of the law, but incurring a huge PR nightmare and breaking with 70 years of tradition.

I'm pretty sure it was discussed recently on a GWAE episode. I don't remember the outcome.

Quote: iamthepush

$5k chips are called flags at Bellagio and are white with red and blue border.

The incident with me and my bro happened at Bellagio

I thought flags were the rectangular chips?

My understanding (from listening to GWAE with Bob N.) is that the casino can only withhold payment (actually, are required to withhold payment) if they know that the person did not play there. Not suspect -- know. The burden of proof is on them to prove that you did not play, not on you to prove that you did play. If you show up a week later and claimed that you won the chip by playing but don't remember exactly how long ago, they have to pay you unless they can prove that you are not telling the truth.

In Nolan's case, they asked him if he played there, and he said no. That pretty much tied their hands. They would be breaking the law by cashing the chip.

So what would happen if Nolan came back with his friend who gave him the chip? He says "That's my chip, I gave it to him, pay him," or if that doesn't fly, "That's my chip, pay me." Would that work?

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

I thought flags were the rectangular chips?

i don't know, but in the poker community flags are $5k chips and cranberries are $25k chips.

I always take chips away from casinos in the same chain as my local if their cash desk is closed - usually take £5's.
In the old days before advertising was allowed I was setting up a photo and had gone to a nearby casino to pick up a stack of £25s (black) and £5s (green) and walked out. The following day I got a phone call from their security.

Looks like people are arguing against holding onto chips because you can't (or it's difficult to) cash at a later point. You aren't holding onto chips so you can cash them later (well, maybe, but usually not). Usually you would use the chip to buy in again. I have never had an issue doing "cheque change" with a large denomination chip (500-1000) at a table. I have had an issue cashing in a chip at a later date (500), though.

As for what someone said above, regarding it's up to the casino to prove you didn't play as opposed to you having to prove you did play -- are we talking about that chip specifically? If I did play but am cashing a chip that someone else gave to me, would they then be able to say "you didn't win that chip so we're not going to cash it", if for some reason, they could prove I didn't win that chip specifically?

Quote: RS

You aren't holding onto chips so you can cash them later (well, maybe, but usually not). Usually you would use the chip to buy in again. I have never had an issue doing "cheque change" with a large denomination chip (500-1000) at a table. I have had an issue cashing in a chip at a later date (500), though.

Yes, that was exactly the purpose I had in mind. Keep chips to buy in at a table at a future date. I don't think I could do that with a blue chip (5k) even at the $100 table if the record (after swiping my player card) shows that I haven't been playing in a while. What is "a while?" --- more than a few days, but less than a month, for my purposes. Purple chips seem innocent enough, it sounds like.