Someone please enlight me!
April 11th, 2014 at 4:21:28 PM
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Hello to this great community.
I've got a video blackjack game at my local bet shop that has an interesting blackjack variation that I want to know the house edge (if any).
Here are the rules:
1) 6 decks
2) Standing on all 17's
3) 1 card when splitting aces
4) Only one double or split is allowed per hand. If you split once you lose the ability to double.
5) No peek for BJ
6) Double 9-11 only
7) Cannot resplit aces
8) BJ pays 3 to 2
and 9 and here is what's interesting:
Twelve of the kings in the decks have been substituted with a "bonus king". If I get 2 of them, that would be 20
and with this hand I get paid 4/1 and I beat every hand the dealer can make even BJ.
Could someone tell me what would be the house edge of this game?
I've got a video blackjack game at my local bet shop that has an interesting blackjack variation that I want to know the house edge (if any).
Here are the rules:
1) 6 decks
2) Standing on all 17's
3) 1 card when splitting aces
4) Only one double or split is allowed per hand. If you split once you lose the ability to double.
5) No peek for BJ
6) Double 9-11 only
7) Cannot resplit aces
8) BJ pays 3 to 2
and 9 and here is what's interesting:
Twelve of the kings in the decks have been substituted with a "bonus king". If I get 2 of them, that would be 20
and with this hand I get paid 4/1 and I beat every hand the dealer can make even BJ.
Could someone tell me what would be the house edge of this game?
April 11th, 2014 at 4:50:54 PM
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Well, you've got almost every undesirable rule on that game. At least you've still got the 3:2.
House edge, according to Wizard's HE Calculator is 0.775% optimal before factoring in your bonus 20.
House edge, according to Wizard's HE Calculator is 0.775% optimal before factoring in your bonus 20.
Casinos are not your friends, they want your money. But so does Disneyland.
And there is no chance in hell that you will go to Disneyland and come back with more money than you went with.
- AxelWolf and Mickeycrimm
April 11th, 2014 at 5:01:14 PM
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I figure (12/312)*(11/311) is the frequency. Most of the time you win with KK, so figure the normal EV when having 20, subtract the difference bonus payout, then multiply by the frequency. Might also have to check against frequency of 20vsBJ.
If the HE before the bonus KKK rule comes in is .7%+, then I doubt you can make it +EV. Even being very lenient on the math, I got the bonus to be worth about 5%.
If the HE before the bonus KKK rule comes in is .7%+, then I doubt you can make it +EV. Even being very lenient on the math, I got the bonus to be worth about 5%.
April 12th, 2014 at 12:15:03 PM
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How certain are you regarding the 0.5% reduction? It makes it a great BJ game if thats the case considering bookies usually only have 0.70%+ BJ's usually.
April 12th, 2014 at 12:29:43 PM
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When you say 4/1 do you mean 4 to 1 or 4 for 1.
April 12th, 2014 at 2:32:05 PM
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I mean 4 to 1.
April 12th, 2014 at 2:35:39 PM
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I wonder if counting the bonus kings would help.
April 12th, 2014 at 2:55:03 PM
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Decks shuffled after each hand so counting wouldn't help. Up to 3 hands possible. Would it better for the player to play all 3 boxes because of the bonus kings?
April 12th, 2014 at 3:39:01 PM
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Wouldn't be better to play more, the EV is the same. If the game is positive, which it probably isn't, then you should play more.
Wisdom is the quality that keeps you out of situations where you would otherwise need it
April 12th, 2014 at 6:57:41 PM
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If you haven't considered this yet, absolutely be counting the bonus kings and wong out if they're gone!
April 12th, 2014 at 6:59:49 PM
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I always wong out of VBJ.
April 12th, 2014 at 9:44:22 PM
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Quote: cheekykidDecks shuffled after each hand so counting wouldn't help.
Quote: NeutrinoIf you haven't considered this yet, absolutely be counting the bonus kings and wong out if they're gone!
Love it.
Casinos are not your friends, they want your money. But so does Disneyland.
And there is no chance in hell that you will go to Disneyland and come back with more money than you went with.
- AxelWolf and Mickeycrimm
April 20th, 2014 at 6:08:46 AM
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Anyone knows what would be the HE of this game?
April 23rd, 2014 at 12:03:27 PM
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BONUS RULE
2 Bonus Kings 20 = Comb(12,2) = 96
Total combs = Comb(312,2) = 48.516
So its happens 96/48.516 = 0,136%
Average EV of 10,10 v Any Upcard = 58% (this is before checking for BJ, after checking for BJ it is 65,6%)
Increase in EV when you get it = 400% - 58% = 342%
Increase in EV = 0,136% X 342% = +0,465%
TOTAL EV
Except the Bonus rule, someone calculate it as -0,775%, so I am using this figure (when you can check it from WoO info)
EV = -0,775% + 0,465% = -0,31%.
So no a bad game (unless a made a mistake on the above bonus calculation)
Variance should be slighly higher though.
SPLIT 10,BONUS KING(BK)
If you Split 10,BK and get BK,BK does the bonus still work.
Maybe the BS changes to Split for 10,BK v 6.
2 Bonus Kings 20 = Comb(12,2) = 96
Total combs = Comb(312,2) = 48.516
So its happens 96/48.516 = 0,136%
Average EV of 10,10 v Any Upcard = 58% (this is before checking for BJ, after checking for BJ it is 65,6%)
Increase in EV when you get it = 400% - 58% = 342%
Increase in EV = 0,136% X 342% = +0,465%
TOTAL EV
Except the Bonus rule, someone calculate it as -0,775%, so I am using this figure (when you can check it from WoO info)
EV = -0,775% + 0,465% = -0,31%.
So no a bad game (unless a made a mistake on the above bonus calculation)
Variance should be slighly higher though.
SPLIT 10,BONUS KING(BK)
If you Split 10,BK and get BK,BK does the bonus still work.
Maybe the BS changes to Split for 10,BK v 6.
April 23rd, 2014 at 12:21:41 PM
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SPLIT 10,BK v 6
EV Stand = 70,28%
EV Split = 50,17% (WoO show this as 44,49% but I think WoO calculations assume that you continue to split to 4 hands, mine are for 1 split only)
Bonus Rule Effect for Split Decision
You get the BK 11/310 = 3,5484% of the times
And in those times your EV increases by 342%
Increase in EV = 3,5484% x 342% = 12,14%
EV for Split = 50,17% + 12,14% = 62,31%
So Still the Stand Decision is better (70,28%)
And if it does not work for the 6, then it does not work for any of the Upcards
EV Stand = 70,28%
EV Split = 50,17% (WoO show this as 44,49% but I think WoO calculations assume that you continue to split to 4 hands, mine are for 1 split only)
Bonus Rule Effect for Split Decision
You get the BK 11/310 = 3,5484% of the times
And in those times your EV increases by 342%
Increase in EV = 3,5484% x 342% = 12,14%
EV for Split = 50,17% + 12,14% = 62,31%
So Still the Stand Decision is better (70,28%)
And if it does not work for the 6, then it does not work for any of the Upcards
April 23rd, 2014 at 1:14:21 PM
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I came up with 12/312*11/311*4 = 0.544%.
This would be absolute since this hand beats ANYTHING/EVERYTHING.
As previously mentioned, this is countable. Start with 12 and then -1 for each one seen.
HOWEVER, this is Video BJ, and usually shuffles after evey round.
Did I read this right?
Stand any 17
No Double after split
Double on 9-10-11 only
No resplits at all
No Resplit aces
Aces get one card and stands
No surrender
House Advantage =0.575% - Bonus Kings = 0.031% (wow thats small)
Dealer NO peek is a big problem here... Do you lose the double or split if Dealer has Blackjack?
I think you do, and this calls for strategy changes against a 10-value and Ace.
House Advantage lose doubles/splits included is 0.685% - Bonus Kings = 0.141% (still small)
IMHO somethings not right... like maybe Deaaler hits soft 17.
This would be absolute since this hand beats ANYTHING/EVERYTHING.
As previously mentioned, this is countable. Start with 12 and then -1 for each one seen.
HOWEVER, this is Video BJ, and usually shuffles after evey round.
Did I read this right?
Stand any 17
No Double after split
Double on 9-10-11 only
No resplits at all
No Resplit aces
Aces get one card and stands
No surrender
House Advantage =0.575% - Bonus Kings = 0.031% (wow thats small)
Dealer NO peek is a big problem here... Do you lose the double or split if Dealer has Blackjack?
I think you do, and this calls for strategy changes against a 10-value and Ace.
House Advantage lose doubles/splits included is 0.685% - Bonus Kings = 0.141% (still small)
IMHO somethings not right... like maybe Deaaler hits soft 17.
Some people need to reimagine their thinking.
April 23rd, 2014 at 1:18:47 PM
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Quote: 98ClubsI came up with 12/312*11/311*4 = 0.544%.
This would be absolute since this hand beats ANYTHING/EVERYTHING.
EDIT: missed the fact that it pays 4:1
The rule is still not worth quite that much, though. You need to factor in the probability that you would lose, push, or win with KK. Call those probabilities x, y, and z respectively (note that x + y + z = 1).
The probability of getting the hand is 12/312 * 11/311. Call that number p.
So the total value is:
5px + 4py + 3pz. Note that z > x (you win more than you lose with a 20, obviously) so this is less than the number that you computed.
This also assumes that the bet pays 4 to 1. It probably pays 4 for 1 (since it's a machine, and machine payouts are almost always listed as "for 1" rather than "to 1", so the actual value of the rule is probably;
4px + 3py + 2pz
April 23rd, 2014 at 1:25:16 PM
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But this winner pays 4:1 not 1:1.
I'm more and more certain that the OP got this all wrong... 4 for 1 (bet 1 returns 4, NOT 5, and H17 are very likely)
I'm more and more certain that the OP got this all wrong... 4 for 1 (bet 1 returns 4, NOT 5, and H17 are very likely)
Some people need to reimagine their thinking.
April 23rd, 2014 at 1:26:39 PM
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Quote: 98ClubsBut this winner pays 4:1 not 1:1.
Yes, sorry, I edited my post. Your computation is still off, though.
April 23rd, 2014 at 1:27:30 PM
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Quote: 98ClubsI came up with 12/312*11/311*4 = 0.544%.
The *4 part is wrong. That assumes that a Normal 10,10 has 0% EV. 10,10 has Average EV of 0,58 so the increase in EV is 4-0,58 = 3,42.
So it is with 12/312*11/311* 3,42 = 0.465%
