williamwizard
• Posts: 7
Joined: Apr 8, 2014
April 8th, 2014 at 8:08:06 PM permalink
I have been playing Blackjack for a few years now. I live fairly close to Blackhawk, CO where there is a small casino town. I have also visited Las Vegas 3-4 times over this period. Here's what I have noticed consistently:

/// Playing two-deck or one-deck blackjack at home and two-deck or one-deck hand-shuffled blackjack at a casino (where available) is VERY different than playing at a table with 4-8 decks using shuffle machines. ///

*I have noticed that the probability strategy (which I use) does not work well with machine-shuffled tables or tables with more than 2 decks.
*There is a chance that the machines that shuffle the cards do not shuffle the decks randomly. Furthermore, unlike the hand-shuffled one and two deck tables, you do not get to see all the cards on the table (when they change decks). What would happen if the tens are clumped together in certain sequence? Probability goes out the window. Only people that will have a chance at an even game with the dealer would be someone with a big bank roll and consistent betting (i.e. betting \$10 for all hands). And what if a few tens are missing from the decks? It gives the dealer a much higher chance of not busting with dealer getting higher instances of 3-5 card 20's.

If you are a BJ player using probability and betting strategy (betting high when you have a higher probability of getting better cards), avoid machine-shuffled tables at all costs. In my opinion, many of these casinos are going far and above to take your money and rip you off using whatever strategy they can even with the dealer advantage they have (i.e. whether dealer wins or loses, anyone that busts on the table loses first and the dealer gets the money).

I have found a few casinos that work well for me, and I feel safe playing blackjack there because they have hand-shuffled blackjack tables. These two casinos here in CO are run by the same company called, Affinity Gaming. Whatever the case, I recommend a casino that have one, two, or three hand-shuffled tables (three would even better since they only use half of the cards. So two-deck would feel like playing with one and three would be like 1.5 decks).
AxiomOfChoice
• Posts: 5761
Joined: Sep 12, 2012
April 8th, 2014 at 8:11:16 PM permalink
Quote: williamwizard

I have been playing Blackjack for a few years now. I live fairly close to Blackhawk, CO where there is a small casino town. I have also visited Las Vegas 3-4 times over this period. Here's what I have noticed consistently:

/// Playing two-deck or one-deck blackjack at home and two-deck or one-deck hand-shuffled blackjack at a casino (where available) is VERY different than playing at a table with 4-8 decks using shuffle machines. ///

I'd say that about 65% play blackjack without a special strategy (other than "bet more when I am winning and less when I am losing") and about 45% use probability.

*I have noticed that the probability strategy (which I use) does not work well with machine-shuffled tables or tables with more than 2 decks.
*There is a chance that the machines that shuffle the cards do not shuffle the decks randomly. Furthermore, unlike the hand-shuffled one and two deck tables, you do not get to see all the cards on the table (when they change decks). What would happen if the tens are clumped together in certain sequence? Probability goes out the window. Only people that will have a chance at an even game with the dealer would be someone with a big bank roll and consistent betting (i.e. betting \$10 for all hands). And what if a few tens are missing from the decks? It gives the dealer a much higher chance of not busting.

If you are a BJ player using probability and betting strategy (betting high when you have a higher probability of getting better cards), avoid machine-shuffled tables at all costs. In my opinion, many of these casinos are going far and above to take your money and rip you off using whatever strategy they can even with the dealer advantage they have (i.e. whether dealer wins or loses, anyone that busts on the table loses first and the dealer gets the money).

I have found a few casinos that work well for me, and I feel safe playing blackjack there because they have hand-shuffled blackjack tables. These two casinos here in CO are run by the same company called, Affinity Gaming. Whatever the case, I recommend a casino that have one, two, or three hand-shuffled tables (three would even better since they only use half of the cards. So two-deck would feel like playing with one and three would be like 1.5 decks).

What is your "probability" based strategy?

Also, if 65% of players play with with no special strategy, and 45% players play with a "probability" strategy, what about the other -10%?

I'd suspect that the probability that you hand-shuffle a deck better than a machine is close to 0. In other words, your shuffles at the kitchen table are "less random" than anything that you wold see in a casino.
williamwizard
• Posts: 7
Joined: Apr 8, 2014
April 8th, 2014 at 8:19:46 PM permalink
I meant 60/40... didn't want to say 50/50. Just a random guess from experience, but that is not the point of this post man.
Buzzard
• Posts: 6814
Joined: Oct 28, 2012
April 8th, 2014 at 8:21:02 PM permalink
Not so much random as a wild ass guess !
Shed not for her the bitter tear Nor give the heart to vain regret Tis but the casket that lies here, The gem that filled it Sparkles yet
geoff
• Posts: 368
Joined: Feb 19, 2014
April 8th, 2014 at 8:23:16 PM permalink
When new decks are opened at a las vegas table they show everything. Stop and watch a table as it opens one day and you'll see them spread 6 decks out on the table to verify each and every card is there with the proof being the camera above you. The casino has no reason to remove a few tens to get an extra half percent edge when they already have math on their side. All it would take is a single disgruntled casino employee or watchful player and the casino loses its license with the people who did it going to jail.
williamwizard
• Posts: 7
Joined: Apr 8, 2014
April 8th, 2014 at 8:23:32 PM permalink
You two must be Casino owners. Haha. Again that isn't the point. Bunch of crazy asses here.
williamwizard
• Posts: 7
Joined: Apr 8, 2014
April 8th, 2014 at 8:24:38 PM permalink
None of the casinos here in Colorado show their decks. And if you ask them to show the decks, they will say no.
williamwizard
• Posts: 7
Joined: Apr 8, 2014
April 8th, 2014 at 8:26:17 PM permalink
I agree with you. Very good point. But... who's to say that the cards are shuffled randomly? Very likely they are not.
Tomspur
• Posts: 2019
Joined: Jul 12, 2013
April 8th, 2014 at 8:27:24 PM permalink
Another pretty wild accusation. Do you have any proof that the casinos you go to in Blackhawk and LV are cheating you other than comparing house dealt games to games dealt in the casino?

It should be made clear that casinos have FAR MORE to lose if they are caught cheating than what they could ever win from a few crooked games of blackjack.

Remember, randomness is in the eye of the beholder. What you see as random at home and not random at a casino may be completely askewed to another persons perception thereof.

I hope you will give casinos the benefit of the doubt unless you have concrete proof otherwise.
“There is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man.” - Winston Churchill
williamwizard
• Posts: 7
Joined: Apr 8, 2014
April 8th, 2014 at 8:29:53 PM permalink
Not shuffling the cards properly isn't illegal.
Buzzard
• Posts: 6814
Joined: Oct 28, 2012
April 8th, 2014 at 8:32:14 PM permalink
Get to the casino when they open up. Or watch when a new table opens up. Every casino in Colorado will spread and then wash the cards. Are you drunk ?
Shed not for her the bitter tear Nor give the heart to vain regret Tis but the casket that lies here, The gem that filled it Sparkles yet
Tomspur
• Posts: 2019
Joined: Jul 12, 2013
April 8th, 2014 at 8:32:25 PM permalink
Quote: williamwizard

Not shuffling the cards properly isn't illegal.

So then why are you complaining?

If they are not doing anything illegal (as you have stated) then let them do what they do then.........Otherwise go somewhere else. Pretty simple choice really.
“There is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man.” - Winston Churchill
Buzzard
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Joined: Oct 28, 2012
April 8th, 2014 at 8:33:22 PM permalink
The porch light is on, but nobody's home !
Shed not for her the bitter tear Nor give the heart to vain regret Tis but the casket that lies here, The gem that filled it Sparkles yet
AxiomOfChoice
• Posts: 5761
Joined: Sep 12, 2012
April 8th, 2014 at 8:42:18 PM permalink
Quote: williamwizard

Not shuffling the cards properly isn't illegal.

Not shuffling the cards properly opens the casino up to an opportunity to be beaten. PLEASE leave those 10s clumped together, and then give me the cut card. And have high max bets please.
Sonuvabish
• Posts: 1342
Joined: Feb 5, 2014
April 9th, 2014 at 10:03:51 AM permalink
Quote: williamwizard

I have been playing Blackjack for a few years now. I live fairly close to Blackhawk, CO where there is a small casino town. I have also visited Las Vegas 3-4 times over this period. Here's what I have noticed consistently:

/// Playing two-deck or one-deck blackjack at home and two-deck or one-deck hand-shuffled blackjack at a casino (where available) is VERY different than playing at a table with 4-8 decks using shuffle machines. ///

*I have noticed that the probability strategy (which I use) does not work well with machine-shuffled tables or tables with more than 2 decks.
*There is a chance that the machines that shuffle the cards do not shuffle the decks randomly. Furthermore, unlike the hand-shuffled one and two deck tables, you do not get to see all the cards on the table (when they change decks). What would happen if the tens are clumped together in certain sequence? Probability goes out the window. Only people that will have a chance at an even game with the dealer would be someone with a big bank roll and consistent betting (i.e. betting \$10 for all hands). And what if a few tens are missing from the decks? It gives the dealer a much higher chance of not busting with dealer getting higher instances of 3-5 card 20's.

If you are a BJ player using probability and betting strategy (betting high when you have a higher probability of getting better cards), avoid machine-shuffled tables at all costs. In my opinion, many of these casinos are going far and above to take your money and rip you off using whatever strategy they can even with the dealer advantage they have (i.e. whether dealer wins or loses, anyone that busts on the table loses first and the dealer gets the money).

I have found a few casinos that work well for me, and I feel safe playing blackjack there because they have hand-shuffled blackjack tables. These two casinos here in CO are run by the same company called, Affinity Gaming. Whatever the case, I recommend a casino that have one, two, or three hand-shuffled tables (three would even better since they only use half of the cards. So two-deck would feel like playing with one and three would be like 1.5 decks).

Utter nonsense. I'm too blown away to elaborate on everything wrong with this. I'm sure everyone (including non-APs) knows what I mean. Backwards conversations like these at the tables is what forces me to keep a steady stream of ibuprofen coursing thru my veins.
1BB
• Posts: 5339
Joined: Oct 10, 2011
April 9th, 2014 at 11:02:09 AM permalink
Quote: williamwizard

I have been playing Blackjack for a few years now. I live fairly close to Blackhawk, CO where there is a small casino town. I have also visited Las Vegas 3-4 times over this period. Here's what I have noticed consistently:

/// Playing two-deck or one-deck blackjack at home and two-deck or one-deck hand-shuffled blackjack at a casino (where available) is VERY different than playing at a table with 4-8 decks using shuffle machines. ///

*I have noticed that the probability strategy (which I use) does not work well with machine-shuffled tables or tables with more than 2 decks.
*There is a chance that the machines that shuffle the cards do not shuffle the decks randomly. Furthermore, unlike the hand-shuffled one and two deck tables, you do not get to see all the cards on the table (when they change decks). What would happen if the tens are clumped together in certain sequence? Probability goes out the window. Only people that will have a chance at an even game with the dealer would be someone with a big bank roll and consistent betting (i.e. betting \$10 for all hands). And what if a few tens are missing from the decks? It gives the dealer a much higher chance of not busting with dealer getting higher instances of 3-5 card 20's.

If you are a BJ player using probability and betting strategy (betting high when you have a higher probability of getting better cards), avoid machine-shuffled tables at all costs. In my opinion, many of these casinos are going far and above to take your money and rip you off using whatever strategy they can even with the dealer advantage they have (i.e. whether dealer wins or loses, anyone that busts on the table loses first and the dealer gets the money).

I have found a few casinos that work well for me, and I feel safe playing blackjack there because they have hand-shuffled blackjack tables. These two casinos here in CO are run by the same company called, Affinity Gaming. Whatever the case, I recommend a casino that have one, two, or three hand-shuffled tables (three would even better since they only use half of the cards. So two-deck would feel like playing with one and three would be like 1.5 decks).

Hello williamwizard. I see that none of the administrators have welcomed you to the forum so allow me. Welcome to the forum, williamwizard.

Could you elaborate on the probability strategy that you use? Are you a card counter? Those two casinos have had a very limited blackjack selection with not the best rules. Is that still the case?

I just read the Wiki page for Affinity gaming. Some interesting names popped up. Have a look.
Many people, especially ignorant people, want to punish you for speaking the truth. - Mahatma Ghandi
Deucekies
• Posts: 1457
Joined: Jan 20, 2014
April 9th, 2014 at 11:10:44 AM permalink
Quote: williamwizard

Again that isn't the point. Bunch of crazy asses here.

Like others have explained, the casino has far more to lose from cheating than they'd ever gain, and there's nothing they can do with a CSM that they can't do with a hand-shuffled shoe.

But by all means, keep the personal attacks coming. We love those.
Casinos are not your friends, they want your money. But so does Disneyland. And there is no chance in hell that you will go to Disneyland and come back with more money than you went with. - AxelWolf and Mickeycrimm
AxelWolf
• Posts: 22296
Joined: Oct 10, 2012
April 9th, 2014 at 11:26:41 AM permalink
This is no doubt nonsense and he needs an excuse/reason he is not winning. But, I don't like when people use the casinos have to much to lose to cheat. There have been many cases where the casino industry has cheated.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
Buzzard
• Posts: 6814
Joined: Oct 28, 2012
April 9th, 2014 at 11:28:03 AM permalink
Quote: williamwizard
Again that isn't the point. Bunch of crazy asses here.

Looks like its ok to insult !
Shed not for her the bitter tear Nor give the heart to vain regret Tis but the casket that lies here, The gem that filled it Sparkles yet
Deucekies
• Posts: 1457
Joined: Jan 20, 2014
April 9th, 2014 at 12:21:22 PM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

This is no doubt nonsense and he needs an excuse/reason he is not winning. But, I don't like when people use the casinos have to much to lose to cheat. There have been many cases where the casino industry has cheated.

This is a fair point. Unscrupulous managements, especially in smaller casinos, may try and see what they can get away with. That's why GC regulations are so strict today, especially in US states where gambling is relatively young. I'd be very surprised if what the OP said is true that in Colorado, they won't show you the cards. Near as I know, that is a law.
Casinos are not your friends, they want your money. But so does Disneyland. And there is no chance in hell that you will go to Disneyland and come back with more money than you went with. - AxelWolf and Mickeycrimm
Sonuvabish
• Posts: 1342
Joined: Feb 5, 2014
April 9th, 2014 at 12:54:06 PM permalink
Quote: 1BB

Hello williamwizard. I see that none of the administrators have welcomed you to the forum so allow me. Welcome to the forum, williamwizard.

Could you elaborate on the probability strategy that you use? Are you a card counter? Those two casinos have had a very limited blackjack selection with not the best rules. Is that still the case?

I just read the Wiki page for Affinity gaming. Some interesting names popped up. Have a look.

Seriously, 1BB? You remind me of my mom. When I was a kid and just p#@@ed her off, she'd lose it. Then the doorbell rings. As she walks toward the door, she's still out of control. Then she opens the door, and suddenly she is the most prim and proper person ever, with no trace of discord. First time I saw this, my jaw dropped and I just stared at the interaction. Basically, I am saying: you really think this guy could possibly be an AP? You are beyond polite and into "Sonuvabish's Mom is Fake Zone". But yes, I too can't help but be curious as to this probability strategy. Anyone want to take bets that it is so powerful, that it cannot be revealed for free? Or so elaborately convoluted, that it cannot be explained in English?
1BB
• Posts: 5339
Joined: Oct 10, 2011
April 9th, 2014 at 3:24:45 PM permalink
Quote: Sonuvabish

Seriously, 1BB? You remind me of my mom. When I was a kid and just p#@@ed her off, she'd lose it. Then the doorbell rings. As she walks toward the door, she's still out of control. Then she opens the door, and suddenly she is the most prim and proper person ever, with no trace of discord. First time I saw this, my jaw dropped and I just stared at the interaction. Basically, I am saying: you really think this guy could possibly be an AP? You are beyond polite and into "Sonuvabish's Mom is Fake Zone". But yes, I too can't help but be curious as to this probability strategy. Anyone want to take bets that it is so powerful, that it cannot be revealed for free? Or so elaborately convoluted, that it cannot be explained in English?

I'm an Eddie Haskell fan myself. :-)

If he's talking about Golden Gates and Mardi Gras, I don't believe that any serious AP would play there for many reasons. I think the guy flew the coop which is too bad because I wanted to hear what he had to say.
Many people, especially ignorant people, want to punish you for speaking the truth. - Mahatma Ghandi
AxiomOfChoice
• Posts: 5761
Joined: Sep 12, 2012
April 9th, 2014 at 3:29:58 PM permalink
Quote: 1BB

I'm an Eddie Haskell fan myself. :-)

If he's talking about Golden Gates and Mardi Gras, I don't believe that any serious AP would play there for many reasons. I think the guy flew the coop which is too bad because I wanted to hear what he had to say.

He said what he had to say. He loses in casinos so the shuffle machines must be programmed to deal the players losing hands. Surely he is not losing because the house has a built-in edge, and he makes mistakes which compound that edge! I'm sure you've heard this before.

The guy came in and made the same identical post to 2 threads (one of which, he created). Do you really think that there is something more here?
Sonuvabish
• Posts: 1342
Joined: Feb 5, 2014
April 9th, 2014 at 5:49:22 PM permalink
Quote: AxiomOfChoice

He said what he had to say. He loses in casinos so the shuffle machines must be programmed to deal the players losing hands. Surely he is not losing because the house has a built-in edge, and he makes mistakes which compound that edge! I'm sure you've heard this before.

The guy came in and made the same identical post to 2 threads (one of which, he created). Do you really think that there is something more here?

Heard it once for every individual card I've counted. Like I said, these are the guys that keep my pockets full of ibuprofen.
GWAE
• Posts: 9854
Joined: Sep 20, 2013
April 10th, 2014 at 3:58:00 AM permalink
OP this isn't even a logical conclusion. How would they stack a deck when they don't know how many people will be at a table. What if the table starts out at 6 people then drops to 3, or what if the idiot hits a 17 or stands on a soft 15? Wouldn't one of those events completely mess up the stacked shoe?
Expect the worst and you will never be disappointed. I AM NOT PART OF GWAE RADIO SHOW
FleaStiff
• Posts: 14484
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April 10th, 2014 at 5:41:21 AM permalink
Quote: GWAE

How would they stack a deck when they don't know how many people will be at a table. What if the idiot hits a 17 or stands on a soft 15? Wouldn't one of those events completely mess up the stacked shoe?

Sure would. I've no doubt the situation in that very small mountainous area with small competitive casinos and friendly legislatures might have a willingness to bend the law but they just wouldn't have the ability to know which way to falsely stack the re-shuffling machines or shoes or anything. Its the same as bring in loaded dice, not necessarily a good thing for a casino to do if everyone is playing from the Don'ts, Hoping They Won't. You have to have the ability to extricate the loaded dice and swap in decent dice as table situations change during the day.
Neutrino
• Posts: 515
Joined: Feb 20, 2014
April 10th, 2014 at 5:55:42 AM permalink
Quote: Buzzard

Get to the casino when they open up. Or watch when a new table opens up. Every casino in Colorado will spread and then wash the cards. Are you drunk ?

Wait, they wash the cards? doesn't that damage the cards? and why would they do that, are they that concerned about sanitation?
dwheatley
• Posts: 1246
Joined: Nov 16, 2009
April 10th, 2014 at 7:13:01 AM permalink
Since sarcasm doesn't translate well over the internet, I'm going to pretend you don't know that wash means to spread the cards out in a big pile and mix them up with your hands in a circular motion. Casinos do it all the time, especially poker tables.
Wisdom is the quality that keeps you out of situations where you would otherwise need it
RS
• Posts: 8626
Joined: Feb 11, 2014
April 10th, 2014 at 10:12:50 AM permalink
Quote: GWAE

OP this isn't even a logical conclusion. How would they stack a deck when they don't know how many people will be at a table. What if the table starts out at 6 people then drops to 3, or what if the idiot hits a 17 or stands on a soft 15? Wouldn't one of those events completely mess up the stacked shoe?

Not necessarily. I forgot where I read it, but there is a specific way to order the cards so that the player can never win a hand. That could have been for only a heads up game, but no matter how the player played, or where he cut the deck, he'd lose every hand (except one hand was a push if he played the previous hand incorrectly, on one occasion). Can't find the source right now, but I tried it out and it's true.

Regardless, the shuffler wouldn't have to order the cards in a specific way to cheat, they could do things like separate aces from face cards (so no blackjacks or very few), or simply deal out tens & aces at a lower a than a normal frequency. They don't need to guarantee that they're going to win a hand....to cheat, all they have to do is shift the house edge into their favor a little bit more.

In the case of the OP (let's just assume he's been cheated), if he was cheated and could noticeably tell he was cheated (ie: losing way more hands than normal, getting very few blackjacks, busting much more often, getting fewer face/ace cards on doubles, etc), and not just playing with a slightly higher than advertised house edge....then something fishy would be going on, like getting dealt seconds or something.
tomslake
• Posts: 1
Joined: Jun 3, 2015
June 13th, 2015 at 11:46:32 AM permalink
The facts are that the shuffle machines in Ohio guarentee the house 15% of the money wagered at the table. Those schuffle machines are made by the same company thatmakes the black jack robot macihines.
rdw4potus
• Posts: 7237
Joined: Mar 11, 2010
June 13th, 2015 at 12:32:41 PM permalink
Quote: tomslake

The facts are that the shuffle machines in Ohio guarentee the house 15% of the money wagered at the table. Those schuffle machines are made by the same company thatmakes the black jack robot macihines.

Ohio has blackjack robots? damn, that's cool!
"So as the clock ticked and the day passed, opportunity met preparation, and luck happened." - Maurice Clarett
MathExtremist
• Posts: 6526
Joined: Aug 31, 2010
June 13th, 2015 at 12:34:43 PM permalink
Quote: tomslake

The facts are that the shuffle machines in Ohio guarentee the house 15% of the money wagered at the table. Those schuffle machines are made by the same company thatmakes the black jack robot macihines.

Um, no. There are no card games with a 15% edge. Are you talking about the hold percentage? 15% is a reasonable hold for blackjack (Nevada is 12%), but there's nothing you can do to guarantee it even if you looked at the cards and deliberately gave them to the players and dealer. There is too much variance in player decisions to guarantee anything.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
vendman1
• Posts: 1034
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June 13th, 2015 at 12:41:44 PM permalink
Quote: rdw4potus

Ohio has blackjack robots? damn, that's cool!

I don't know what made me laugh more, the OP about black jack robot machines, or your response. I try not to be a grammar nazi...god knows I make plenty of mistakes. But 3 errors in one sentence told me all I need to know about the question.

Killer BJ robots aside, I'm sure the OP means hold %, instead of house edge. I would guess a 15% hold percentage in BJ is possible. The AC numbers I look at have a hold % for BJ usually between about 9 and 16%. So it is possible. But has nothing to so with "black jack robot machines".
JCursch
• Posts: 2
Joined: May 9, 2016
May 9th, 2016 at 8:20:40 AM permalink
Interesting.... I have experienced the same type of thing. Clearly it is very easy to have a optical reader and a wireless ethernet connection from each automatic shuffling machine into the office where they can easily adjust the placement of cards in the shuffling machine. For example: Move the majority of large cards 8 thru 10 towards the middle of say a 6 deck..... People Normally cut where? around middle.... results: Most of the Large Cards 8 thru 10 end up in that last part of the 6 deck shoe - they are never played because the house cuts off 1.5 to 2 decks. The other high cards are right at the beginning of the shoe. Watch the counts go negative right off the bat!.... So for most of the play House is at advantage because there is a lot of small cards - Dealer Doesn't Bust - and the player who is playing "Basic Published Strategy" Stops hitting before he should.... Watched it time and time again - dealer easily hitting 17 to 21 starting from bust cards 4/5/6. While all the poor suckers at the table are doubling off 10 and 11 and getting a small card next or people stop hitting on 12,13,14 when they would have probably won the hand if they hit because there are so many small cards in the deck.

It's really very simple - doesn't matter weather people get up and leave the table or join the game this is a simple way to shift the favor way into the house advantage. As an experiment sit down at one of these tables after watching for a while and cut those cards just about 1 deck from the front ...... Guess what.... wholly cow lots of big cards 8 thru 10 will come out of that shoe until about 2 decks are gone and then small cards will start coming out - even that works to their advantage because people will start placing larger and larger bets - and then when the shoe shift to lots of small cards they are still betting big and they loose it all and probably more.

Interestingly enough while this may not be considered "cheating" by the casino because they can shuffle the decks any way they want people need to learn to watch the play before they sit down (you don't have to count cards just observe). Watch at least a couple of shoes before you sit down - if you see the house/dealer consistently not busting coming off 4/5/6 then they are shuffling the cards in their Optical Reader/Wireless Ethernet Networked Black Box Shuffling Machine so that they have a greater advatange of more small cards dealt. You don't have to be a card counter to notice this. Learning to count cards in BlackJack made it very clear that this is what they are doing. Actually I feel sorry for these people that sit down, playing basic published strategy (and of course the dealer/house advising them as they play to play basic strategy) thinking they are getting a fair chance when in reality the cards have been stacked against them.

Then of course there is always the advantage of removing say some combination of 8 thru 10s and replacing it with small cards say 2 and 3s - while that may not give the house a maximum advantage it would definitely give them a edge because again the dealer busts less of the time with a preponderance of small cards in shoe and of course playing basic strategy the player stops hitting before he should.

Just had to say something for the other players out there. - Make sure to watch a few shoes before you sit down if they are using one of their Optical Reader Wireless Ethernet Connect Black Box Automatic Shufflers that they can program to shuffle the cards in any way they want. Of course your best chance is to find a blackjack table with a hand shuffle - but even then how do you know that some of the 8 thru 10s haven't been replaced with for example 2 and 3s.... watch a few shoe before you sit down if dealer is consistently getting 17 thru 21s coming off 4/5/6 then head for the door!

- When it comes right down to it the Casino is Counting Cards Against You! and they definitely don't want you counting cards because you will see what they are doing. So watch out players - its simple for them to do. This is why you see days where everybody is just getting drained and other days where people are making money - usually because there is some group staying at the hotel that they want to bring back next year - or they are staying over the weekend and they plan on cleaning them back out on Sunday before they go home. This translates to huge amounts of money and all it takes is a few employees watching from the eye in the sky to simply adjust the software to move the preponderance of high cards / low cards to different areas of the 6 or 8 decks.

One last point - everybody talks about how gaming control is going to yank their license and fine them huge amounts of money if they are caught. Well? Hmmmm? So where is gaming control - do they come in and do spot checks - how do I know they are doing their job? Where is the proof that they are doing anything? When has anybody ever actually seen a bunch of gaming control officers or whatever they are called walk in to a casino and do a spot check? Make all play stop and have them lay all the cards out on the table and count them out? I've never seen that or even heard of it happening - oh they take video's - the casino is taking videos of itself and that is supposed to be some kind of proof? Really? Hilarious! - it really is play at your own risk......

Ya know the Funny thing about money - you would think that it would be enough for "them" to make the ridiculous money they make just offering a fair game - but the thing about money and most people "them" is the more they get the greedier they become never satisfied they just want more and more.

Good Luck Everybody :-)
Dieter
• Posts: 5674
Joined: Jul 23, 2014
May 9th, 2016 at 8:25:32 AM permalink
Quote: JCursch

People Normally cut where? around middle...

"Cut Thin to Win,"

May the cards fall in your favor.
TwoFeathersATL
• Posts: 3616
Joined: May 22, 2013
May 9th, 2016 at 8:47:19 AM permalink
wow!
That was a fun thread to read on a slow Monday!
I miss some of those posters.....

I truly had no idea I should be concerned with Black Ops, wireless, crooked shuffle machines being controlled by surveillance! I knew I had a winning system, but it only works in a fair game (sigh ;-)

Leave it to them smart guys to run off laughing with all my money ;-) 2F

<edit> what I really hate is when I'm dealt a 8, 2 vs Dealer 2, and I double and make my 20, and then that wireless Black ops crooked shuffle machine planned it so that the dealer draws 5 Aces in a row and then pulls a 4.

Hell, it's not even safe to go progressive, all the aces are gone ;-)
Youuuuuu MIGHT be a 'rascal' if.......(nevermind ;-)...2F
MathExtremist
• Posts: 6526
Joined: Aug 31, 2010
May 9th, 2016 at 8:52:30 AM permalink
Quote: JCursch

Just had to say something for the other players out there. - Make sure to watch a few shoes before you sit down if they are using one of their Optical Reader Wireless Ethernet Connect Black Box Automatic Shufflers that they can program to shuffle the cards in any way they want.

Watch a few shoes? Like, for an hour or two? If you think the casino is cheating, the answer isn't to watch the blackjack table for an hour before you start playing, it's to not play at all.

And here's a conundrum: if everyone followed your advice, there'd be a crowd of people watching an empty table. Since nobody is playing, you'd never actually be able to watch the hands come out in the first place...
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
JCursch
• Posts: 2
Joined: May 9, 2016
May 9th, 2016 at 10:34:18 AM permalink
Just would like to add - when a casino hosts an event or group - like lets say they had nascar here in Vegas some weeks back.... hey what do you know at certain casinos on the day they were checking in and the following day wow those blackjack tables were really paying - forget about counting - just watching those dealers bust on everything 2 through 6 not just 4/5/6 double down and split heaven. But boy the day before and the day they are getting ready to leave all of a sudden 2 thru 6 is basically never busting - its really kind of funny - just like they flipped that big secret switch from "Win" to "Lose" - just like something in a movie - you gotta laugh! :-)

So It does pay to hang back and watch - Nascar was obvious - but you never know when they are buttering up a group of people for whatever reason or they may not even be planning on trying to get it back on their leaving day - they may have bigger future plans for getting them to come back. So Yes the trick is to hang back and watch first - it is worth the time and doesn't take hours. Why would you want to set down to shoes rich in small cards anyways? If you would like to just throw some money away I am taking donations? :-) :-)

You have to think like the people who own these places - constantly asking themselves what else can I slip in there to make more money off the players? (and overall) .... I mean come on, I am no rocket scientist (however i have been around the really really smart people) and I have learned that if I can think of it then somebody else already has.

Anyways one more point - if the Card Shuffling Machines are so innocent then why don't they put them in clear plastic/Plexiglas case so we can all watch? If a dealer shuffles cards do they throw a black towel over the cards while they are doing it????? or do they plop a black box down on the table and shuffle the cards underneath it so we can't see?

And if you think about it tourists would see a shuffling machine in a clear case doing its work as actually a kind of cool thing to watch and would draw a lot more attention to the tables so it somehow must be more profitable to tuck them away in black boxes. What would you do if you owned a casino - always the most profitable thing you could as much money as you can possibly make.

...... Anyways :-) :-) .......

So yup - it pays to hang back and watch and not just leap in without looking. Who knows what else is going on at the casino hotel - they may be dealing a fair or better than fair blackjack today - or they may be dealing and chip suction blackjack today. :-) :-) :-)

I don't mind just hanging out and watching for a while anyways without playing + there are always other things to look at too ;-)

Good Luck Everybody :-)
gordonm888
• Posts: 5172
Joined: Feb 18, 2015
May 9th, 2016 at 12:30:11 PM permalink
The questions about placing shuffler machines in transparent cases is interesting. Hadn't thought of that.

A basic problem for now and in the future, is that technology is advancing very fast and, in the case of casino equipment, it may be outstripping the ability of regulatory groups to envision all the possible "threats" to game integrity and to assure they are not happening.

The top managers of all corporations - and presumably casino operations corporations - have annual bonuses and personal compensation packages that depend upon increasing the short term profitability of the corporation. When corporate CEOs and VPs have performance bonuses of several million dollars per individual that depend upon increasing corporate earnings by 1% in the current fiscal year, then it becomes very hard to predict the decisions that those individuals will make.

IMO, the forum members who chant "it's in the casino's self-interest not to cheat" are naive about human behavior and the kinds of real-life issues and incentives facing corporation executives.
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
MathExtremist
• Posts: 6526
Joined: Aug 31, 2010
May 9th, 2016 at 1:37:31 PM permalink
But it's definitely in the *vendor's* self-interest not to cheat. There is literally no upside for SHFL to rig their machines. It's not like they'd advertise
Fair shuffler: \$1000/month
Beast Mode shuffler: \$2000/month

And I don't think any remote casino would be spending the money on engineers to hack their own shufflers. The cost of a good hardware hacker would be a significant outlay for a smaller casino, especially one who had to be bound to secrecy to avoid losing the gaming license. So unless the casino owner is also a CSEE grad, I don't see how the product ever gets created in the first place.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
gordonm888
• Posts: 5172
Joined: Feb 18, 2015
May 9th, 2016 at 2:12:02 PM permalink
Quote: MathExtremist

But it's definitely in the *vendor's* self-interest not to cheat. There is literally no upside for SHFL to rig their machines. It's not like they'd advertise
Fair shuffler: \$1000/month
Beast Mode shuffler: \$2000/month

I have already said that I agree with this on the other thread.

Quote:

And I don't think any remote casino would be spending the money on engineers to hack their own shufflers. The cost of a good hardware hacker would be a significant outlay for a smaller casino, especially one who had to be bound to secrecy to avoid losing the gaming license. So unless the casino owner is also a CSEE grad, I don't see how the product ever gets created in the first place.

Here is some info:
- The North Carolina casinos are not "smaller casinos" -they are huge casinos similar to the large Las Vegas Strip casinos. Get on the internet and check them out.
- I have managed, or had management oversight over, many dozens of subcontracts for software programmers in my career. I imagine that the first-of-a-kind re-programming of machine control software on a device would be expensive -maybe in the range of \$20K to 50K in the Southeastern U.S. Performing repetitive modifications on additional devices would probably be 10x to 50x cheaper per unit, depending upon the specifics involved. These are just ballpark estimates.
- "Secrecy" is usually handled by requiring contractor staff to sign non-disclosure agreements, NDAs, with large financial penalties for any kind of disclosure.. These kind of NDAs are routine for many programmers who work on sensitive jobs for federal agencies or jobs for commercial firms with "proprietary information." Really, its no big deal. Everybody in the high-tech business deals with this routinely -you almost never do a job without one.
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
AxelWolf
• Posts: 22296
Joined: Oct 10, 2012
May 9th, 2016 at 3:18:57 PM permalink
Quote: JCursch

Just would like to add - when a casino hosts an event or group - like lets say they had nascar here in Vegas some weeks back.... hey what do you know at certain casinos on the day they were checking in and the following day wow those blackjack tables were really paying -

Sounds AP exploitable to me.

I'm still not sure how they keep whistleblowers from blowing that whistle.

They could easily tell a friend exactly how everything works and exploit it.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
ernestmiddle
• Posts: 90
Joined: Apr 19, 2016
May 9th, 2016 at 3:26:24 PM permalink
" watch a few shoe before you sit down if dealer is consistently getting 17 thru 21s coming off 4/5/6 then head for the door! "

I believe this is plagiarism. I read that same exact sentence in a John Patrick book.
TwoFeathersATL
• Posts: 3616
Joined: May 22, 2013
May 9th, 2016 at 3:30:14 PM permalink
Easy to do.
Harder to not get caught in the doing.
Just kill a couple people involved, show the video to the rest of the people involved.
Sail off on your new boat, to your new beach-house in the Bahamas.
There is still some good fishing to be had thereabouts ;-)
Youuuuuu MIGHT be a 'rascal' if.......(nevermind ;-)...2F
Lituanica
• Posts: 1
Joined: Oct 3, 2021
October 3rd, 2021 at 4:52:49 PM permalink
You have a good sense about those card shuffling boxes. The game really is rigged when you play at the table where you can't see all of the cards at all times, where cards come out of some "magic" slid in the black box. LMFAO :-DD. I've been gambling for many years all over the this Great Country. How things(games) are now comparing to how things were 20-15 years ago it's like day and night now. Jack pots and great nights and big wins are so, so, so far in between now days it almost seems that all of it wasn't real, probably because all that was long time ago. They rig everything now. Slots, Rolette, Black Jack and all other player Vs. the house table games introducing their "magic" shuffling box!
Stay away from the table games where your dealer is the black box.
I want my dealer to be alive, I want my dealer to show his/hers hand skills, I want my dealer to really work for his/hers tips, I want to see these shuffling tricks'n all.. common it's the part of my addiction :-//, but above all I want transparency on the game mechanics. The cards must never be hidden or out of the players observation.
Playing BJ at the table where the shuffling box is keeping, shuffling and serving the cards is exactly the same as to be playing BJ at the slot machine(at the computer).
I think by now lot's of people(players) understand that scam.
gordonm888
• Posts: 5172
Joined: Feb 18, 2015
October 3rd, 2021 at 5:03:30 PM permalink
Welcome to the forum Lituanica.

Please read the rules of the forum Rules and have a good time.
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
AxelWolf
• Posts: 22296
Joined: Oct 10, 2012
October 3rd, 2021 at 8:05:54 PM permalink
Quote: Lituanica

You have a good sense about those card shuffling boxes. The game really is rigged when you play at the table where you can't see all of the cards at all times, where cards come out of some "magic" slid in the black box. LMFAO :-DD. I've been gambling for many years all over the this Great Country. How things(games) are now comparing to how things were 20-15 years ago it's like day and night now. Jack pots and great nights and big wins are so, so, so far in between now days it almost seems that all of it wasn't real, probably because all that was long time ago. They rig everything now. Slots, Rolette, Black Jack and all other player Vs. the house table games introducing their "magic" shuffling box!
Stay away from the table games where your dealer is the black box.
I want my dealer to be alive, I want my dealer to show his/hers hand skills, I want my dealer to really work for his/hers tips, I want to see these shuffling tricks'n all.. common it's the part of my addiction :-//, but above all I want transparency on the game mechanics. The cards must never be hidden or out of the players observation.
Playing BJ at the table where the shuffling box is keeping, shuffling and serving the cards is exactly the same as to be playing BJ at the slot machine(at the computer).
I think by now lot's of people(players) understand that scam.

• link to original post

\$1200+ jackpots are way more fequent nowadays.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
PBJ
• Posts: 3
Joined: Apr 5, 2022
April 5th, 2022 at 8:01:25 PM permalink
I have had this thought, too. Many say that by influencing the shuffle the casino can make you win or lose. I am always wondering how since people get up or sit down randomly during a shoe, and even if the number of players stay the same not all players make the same choices. However, I have wonder if there is a way that the casino can keep the count from going high, making a shoe overall less advantageous. Any thoughts?
GMan
• Posts: 81
Joined: Jan 5, 2013
April 6th, 2022 at 5:56:15 AM permalink
Quote: PBJ

I have wonder if there is a way that the casino can keep the count from going high, making a shoe overall less advantageous. Any thoughts?
link to original post

You are missing what counting cards is.
You don't count them to see them stay high. You "hope" for a high count "that will go down as you bet on it" ! This is the only reason why you bet on a high count, to see it drop!
Now, if a casino could deal the cards in a manner that you would only experience "low counts", you could in all likelihood beat that game only "flat betting" it. All your bets would be hit by big cards and you would have a lasting advantage. in essence, this is what shuffle tracking does. You don't have to "see" a high count, you simply have to "know" the big cards are there and coming out.
G Man
kewlj
• Posts: 4635
Joined: Apr 17, 2012
April 6th, 2022 at 8:56:27 AM permalink
Quote: PBJ

I have had this thought, too. Many say that by influencing the shuffle the casino can make you win or lose. I am always wondering how since people get up or sit down randomly during a shoe, and even if the number of players stay the same not all players make the same choices. However, I have wonder if there is a way that the casino can keep the count from going high, making a shoe overall less advantageous. Any thoughts?

You are on the right track but asking the wrong question. Blackjack pays 3:2. What if it didn't. What if it paid even money? Wizard of Odds blackjack rules variation tells us that the house advantage goes up by 2.27% giving the house almost a 3% advantage as opposed to about .5% for most games.

So the clumping doesn't have to keep the count from going high or stop 10 value cards from coming out. It just has to keep the aces away from the 10 value cards, eliminating or more likely greatly reducing number of blackjacks paid at 3:2 which would create a much larger house edge. You can still have your clump of 10 value cards come out. But if they aren't mixed with the "normal" number of aces, no more or fewer blackjacks, and larger house advantage.

And number of players, players joining or exiting, and how a player plays different hands won't matter in the slightest. It will just be fewer blackjacks at that special 3:2 payoff.