Thinking about a career changing - looking for real advice.

Gentelmen of the Wizard of Vegas BlackJack forums, I am wanting honest opinions here from real people who play BlackJack for a living.

I'm a 36 year old father of 2 beautiful girls and have a decent job that pays me 55K/yr. It's one of those mundane office jobs that I absolutely despise. Every single day is a struggle for me to get up and go to work, not b/c it's necessarily hard work, I just hate what I do.

That being said, I am seriously considering playing blackjack for a living. I have saved up decent bankroll to start with and have been practicing my counting religiously for the last year. I've put it to use the past 3 months at the local indian casinos that are close by but nothing close to full time, just playing the nickel tables and working on my counting. I use the HI/LO system and use most of the indexes that don't involve surrendering b/c that isn't an option at the casinos here.

I guess my question is; How viable is this as a real option to provide for myself and my family? I was hoping to get some feedback from people who may have left what our society deems as a "real job" to pursue a career in Blackjack. I would be 100% committed to this but it's hard to find real people (outside of the ones that you hear about on the news or the ones that have authored books) that I can get real advice from.

I would love to hear your thoughts, good or bad, and appreciate your time in reading this.

Thanks,
~G

55K/year, with two beautiful girls?

Keep your day job. Why do I say that?

First, you're a new card counter, and while a good counter might get an edge, you have to deal with travel to casinos that won't give you heat. At $25/hand DD with a spread 1-4, maybe you're looking at a 1% edge x your average bet less your Wonging out, so you're looking at what, $20 - $25/hour, at best.

Second, have you kept records at the casino at the nickel tables? Multiply your average earnings over 3 months to the level you'd be betting at, and multiply by four, and then subtract your expenses of getting to and from the "workplace". And then divide that income by 2 to account for variance. I would try sessions at your local casino, and be realistic. How much time can you spend at the tables, and how much could you bet (assuming a bankroll of at least 1,000 units).

Third, for your kids sake, it is probably far more important that you remain a stable influence in your kid's life, and that includes the regular job. Blackjack counting entails a pile of variance, up and down. It also requires alot of discipline, which you may or may not have. The worst thing for your family is a gambling addict who is chasing losses at a slot machine.

When you are without family obligations, go for it. For now, take those savings, and reeducate yourself and find more meaningful employment.

How big is your bankroll? Are you married? If so, is your partner's job secure and provide benefits?

Quote: Gyella

Gentelmen of the Wizard of Vegas BlackJack forums, I am wanting honest opinions here from real people who play BlackJack for a living.

I'm a 36 year old father of 2 beautiful girls and have a decent job that pays me 55K/yr. It's one of those mundane office jobs that I absolutely despise. Every single day is a struggle for me to get up and go to work, not b/c it's necessarily hard work, I just hate what I do.

That being said, I am seriously considering playing blackjack for a living. I have saved up decent bankroll to start with and have been practicing my counting religiously for the last year. I've put it to use the past 3 months at the local indian casinos that are close by but nothing close to full time, just playing the nickel tables and working on my counting. I use the HI/LO system and use most of the indexes that don't involve surrendering b/c that isn't an option at the casinos here.

I guess my question is; How viable is this as a real option to provide for myself and my family? I was hoping to get some feedback from people who may have left what our society deems as a "real job" to pursue a career in Blackjack. I would be 100% committed to this but it's hard to find real people (outside of the ones that you hear about on the news or the ones that have authored books) that I can get real advice from.

I would love to hear your thoughts, good or bad, and appreciate your time in reading this.

Thanks,
~G

Keep you job or find another than makes you happier. Professional Gambler (aside from high level poker players) should not be one of your choices. There are VERY few people in the World that can play Blackjack full-time and make a living that would equate to a good paying job with health insurance, paid time off, 401k, retirement, etc. I'm in the business and in my opinion you have a better chance of becoming really good at playing billiards or golf and making money than you do playing Blackjack for a living.

ZCore13

Treat it as a second job for now. Spend 30-40 hours a week playing for the next six months and see how you do. If you come out ahead each of the six months you may be ready to do it full time. Keep records of every days play results.

Caveat: I'm not a gentleman. :)

Seems like your skills could translate to surveillance, dealing, cage, admin, something like that in the casino, where you sort of get the best of both worlds while you have minor children. You could make about the same in any number of casino-based jobs, get the inside scoop on players, find out what works and what doesn't, and maybe enjoy that job more than the ordinary place you're working for now. Understand you won't get to play at a casino you work at, but a lot of times you can play at someone else's property, just not your own.

Just a thought.

You'd have to be a hell of a BJ player to make that kind of money.

You're talking >$1K/week just to cover the salary, and I imagine that you've got employer matching 401K and health insurance at the very least. By the time you add up the salary + benefits I'd think you'd need to net $6K/month gross winnings just to maintain your current level of income.

Does a professional gambler pay self-employment taxes? If so, that's not chump change either.

To match the pay+benefits of a $55k job, a person would need to make AT LEAST $75k gambling. I think finding a new job, even if it pays less would be better if you need to make a change.

Thank you for the quick responses! I knew I posted in the right place. In hindsight, I should have done a little more digging b/c I just finished reading this post here and it offered a lot of good insight.

To answer a few of your questions, my BR is 75K (saved up over a 6 year period with some bonus help from wedding gifts this past year). My SO is a stylist so she can relocate and be successful as long as there is hair to cut but her job right now does not provide benefits, my current job is doing that.

I just feel like I'm at a crossroads. I've been doing this 9-5 my entire life and it just gets harder and harder to do. I understand there would be new obstacles encountered being a professional gambler but outside of my family, gambling is one of the few things that bring me joy that also has a possible ROI. All of the other things I love don't pay anything.

Anywho, as stated above, I appreciate the honest and informed responses. This isn't something I'm going to be doing first thing tomorrow but it is something I've had a heart to heart with my SO about and God bless her, she's committed to me, no matter what. We were happy before either one of us had any money so I know she's in it for the right reasons. Having kids does throw a pretty big wrench into the mix but they're both young enough now that their lives have not been molded yet.

As some of you have stated, I'm not necessarily looking at matching my salary playing BJ. We live comfortable enough and obviously save money throughout the year. I think the point of this is to allow me to do something that I enjoy doing for a living, not necessarily make buttloads of money doing it. I assume most of you post here and play BlackJack b/c you enjoy it, not necessarily b/c it makes you rich. Am I right in that assessment?

Thanks again,
~G

Quote: Gyella

As some of you have stated, I'm not necessarily looking at matching my salary playing BJ. We live comfortable enough and obviously save money throughout the year. I think the point of this is to allow me to do something that I enjoy doing for a living, not necessarily make buttloads of money doing it. I assume most of you post here and play BlackJack b/c you enjoy it, not necessarily b/c it makes you rich. Am I right in that assessment?

I'm not a professional blackjack player, but I am a solo business owner so take this for what it's worth:
If you don't know what you want to do with your life, that's okay, but I wouldn't assume gambling is it. If you're going to try playing BJ for money, as DRich said, do it on the side first to see whether you actually like it and can succeed in it. See, if you fail at any normal job, you just get fired and find a new one. You're not out anything because you've been getting paid the whole time. If you fail in blackjack, you'll lose $75,000, and that represents six years of your time plus gifts from others.

Honestly, given your family situation, I wouldn't even consider professional gambling. I'd put the 75k in a rental home or other investment and find a different job. Or if you really can't work for someone else (and some people can't) you could start a business on the side doing something you love of your own design. When you're ready to jump in full-time, use that $75k as seed capital to keep you afloat until revenues start coming in. That's what I did, and I didn't even have the cushion. But you need to be an entrepreneur to pull it off, so again, do it on the side to see whether you can be successful before quitting your day job.

Quote: TerribleTom

You'd have to be a hell of a BJ player to make that kind of money.

You're talking >$1K/week just to cover the salary, and I imagine that you've got employer matching 401K and health insurance at the very least. By the time you add up the salary + benefits I'd think you'd need to net $6K/month gross winnings just to maintain your current level of income.

Does a professional gambler pay self-employment taxes? If so, that's not chump change either.

They do indeed pay self-employment taxes. Or they are supposed to at least. Combining the tax law on self employment and gambling is a doozy of a headache though so if anyone is seriously interested in how it works I'd consult a professional. Particularly if you ever make your gaming a profession through a schedule-C or something.

I just want to point out a couple of things.

First, is $75k your total savings? If so, that is not your bankroll. If you quit your job, you still need to live on that money. "Bankroll" refers to money that you can devote completely to gambling, and never take money out of for non-gambling expenses. I assume that your stated income is before taxes, but your savings are after taxes, so it's difficult for me to estimate your living expenses, but let us say that you need $30k per year to live on (are there really places in the US where you can support a family of 4 on that? My rent on a 1-bedroom apartment is significantly more than that) plus another $5k to take care of the things that your employer currently takes care of (benefits)

So, anyway, if you are really going to take a shot at this, you need to quit your job, move yourself and your family to Vegas, and start playing. You need to set aside $35k for living expenses (you can't gamble with this money) so your bankroll is really $40k. You need to earn $35k after taxes (say, between $40k and $45k before taxes) in your first year just to "break even" -- ie, to be able to set aside another $35k for next year and continue playing. Note that this does not grow your bankroll -- it means that you are making just enough to survive, just like someone who lives paycheck to paycheck and saves nothing. You're just treading water at this point.

So, basically, doubling your bankroll in a year is your break-even point. This is not an easy thing to do without taking on significant risk of ruin, and it is particularly not easy to do for someone who is just getting started (because you will make mistakes) And you can't just do it once -- you need to do it every single year (remember -- if you just double it this year, and then set aside enough for next year's living expenses, you are right back where you started) Presumably you want to do better than this -- save some money, set aside something for retirement, maybe be able to help your kids with college, or help them out in some other way.

If you were single with no one depending on you, I would think that this was a bad idea. Given your family situation, I'd say that it's an absolutely terrible idea. $75k might sound like a lot, but it really isn't much once you get rid of the regular, dependable paycheck.

Note that I don't play this game for a living. I'm hoping that kewlj chimes in here -- he has played for a living for a long time.

Ok, just walked in the door from, about 4 hours play, My results for the day were down $2737.50, which is a relatively small loss for the day, AND I was backed off for the first time this year, which ends a pretty good streak dating back about 6 months since my last BO. So, that in itself might give you something to think about Gyella. Lose money and they tell you that you are not welcome. lol

Even if I was coming off a good day, my advice would be the same....Don't do it! Playing blackjack for a living takes a pretty big commitment. It also is about more than just a means for making money. You really have to be pretty passionate about it. There is a learning process involved, which really takes years. It's a lot more than just learning to count. That is the easy part. The hard parts are learning to deal with the mental aspects of losing day after day, week after week, and even month after month. There is also the issues of figuring out each casino's, even different pit people's, tolerance level. You have to recognize when your play has left that comfort level and is drawing some interest.

Personally, I think the best blueprint to playing for a living involves starting small, part-time, while you really learn the ins and outs of everything involved. I also believe it works best for a single person, with minimal commitment and expenses, although, there is something to be said for having a spouse/significant other, who makes a decent living, which can help you withstand the long down periods (this btw, is not the path I took...lol). I would have to say a family man, with dependent children, leaving a decent paying job/benefits is about the worse scenario I can think of. It is not my place to lecture anyone on the commitments they made, but I do think you should think about that long and hard.

The path that I would recommend for you, would be to take up the game as a hobby. Play part-time, with funds set aside only for your blackjack play. Then in a few years when you get those little angels off to college, revisit the idea. Maybe an early retirement plan or something. I am sorry, if this isn't what you want to hear. It is the best I can do in good consciousness.

While not blackjack I did work next to a girl who had a husband who quit his job to play online poker.

Three months later I asked how he was doing.

She said he was back in his old department (he worked at the same place.)

All I will say.

Quote: Gyella

Gentelmen of the Wizard of Vegas BlackJack forums, I am wanting honest opinions here from real people who play BlackJack for a living.

I'm a 36 year old father of 2 beautiful girls and have a decent job that pays me 55K/yr. It's one of those mundane office jobs that I absolutely despise. Every single day is a struggle for me to get up and go to work, not b/c it's necessarily hard work, I just hate what I do.

That being said, I am seriously considering playing blackjack for a living. I have saved up decent bankroll to start with and have been practicing my counting religiously for the last year. I've put it to use the past 3 months at the local indian casinos that are close by but nothing close to full time, just playing the nickel tables and working on my counting. I use the HI/LO system and use most of the indexes that don't involve surrendering b/c that isn't an option at the casinos here.

I guess my question is; How viable is this as a real option to provide for myself and my family? I was hoping to get some feedback from people who may have left what our society deems as a "real job" to pursue a career in Blackjack. I would be 100% committed to this but it's hard to find real people (outside of the ones that you hear about on the news or the ones that have authored books) that I can get real advice from.

I would love to hear your thoughts, good or bad, and appreciate your time in reading this.

Thanks,
~G

I don't play for a living, just as a supplement. But my opinion is that you may not consider leaving your job. Your job is decent paying, and you have a family. Quitting would be completely irresponsible and reckless. Maybe when your kids are adults and on their own you can reconsider. You sound enamored by possibilities of quick riches, rather than devoted to serious AP blackjack--because it doesn't seem like a serious question.

Gyella, are there other reasons for this switch than simply distaste for your job? Are you looking for flexibility with your kids schedules? Maybe chipping in some Mr. Mom time and then working at the casino while they are asleep?

My advice would be to keep doing what you are doing in small steps. Play every week and keep detailed records. Consider how draining it is. Could you log enough hours to win 60k-70k per year with a reasonable ROR? Most folks can't. I sure as hell can't.

Keep saving, keep growing your bankroll. I wouldn't recommend making the change until your debts (mortgage, cars, college for the kids) are settled.

IMO, 3 months is not enough of a trial. Keep grinding, that is one of the best things about this path, the casino is always open and they aren't going out of style soon. Best of luck and welcome. You will find this place to be full of people with advice and knowledge worth way more than what you could ever expect.

I agree with the consensus of the advice above. A big old NO from me. Not only is card counting not very profitable but the life of a professional gambler does not mesh well with that of a family man. It can be done, but it isn't easy.

So you're having fun playing blackjack and working on your counting skills. That's great.

But do it full time?

Oh, sure, it will be great that you can come and go as you wish, setting your own hours. But how great is it knowing the boss will be watching you, and can "fire" you at any time, with no notice or warnings of any sort?

When that happens, you start going to the next casino. But pretty soon, they'll kick you out too, and eventually, there won't be any local place left.

Then what?

OK. Let's say that somehow, you can avoid the heat, and don't have to worry about the casino barring you.

Play BJ on a full time basis and it will quickly become un-fun. It will become a job.

A job with no benefits, and no specified salary.

How fun is it going to be, sitting on your ass for hours at a time, day after day? Imagine being on a downward swing of the variance, while you know that your daughters need braces. Or college tuition. Or a new pair of shoes.


Fun? Not!

deleted

Put another in the NO column for me.

I read somewhere that employers like for employees to bring in 3x what they pay them... Even if you're quite generous and say you're willing to be self employed for only twice as much because you hate your job, your mark would be 110k, and not simply replacing you current 55k, given the difficulties that come with being self employed.

I was a poker bumb for a while and one of the things you'd hear repeatedly at the table was, "It's a hard way to make an easy living."

Quote: DJTeddyBear

How fun is it going to be, sitting on your ass for hours at a time, day after day? Imagine being on a downward swing of the variance, while you know that your daughters need braces. Or college tuition. Or a new pair of shoes.


Fun? Not!

Wow! TDTedyyBear is painting a pretty glummy picture! lol I have already stated what Wiz and others have said, that it's not a great mix for a family man, and the OP, should hold off until a different time in his life (IMO), but geez, TDTB, the life isn't ALL bad. There are some good things, some positives, you work your own hours and call your own shots. And hopefully you are doing something you like or you wouldn't have gotten into this in the first place. This is precisely why I said, it has to be more than a means to making a living. It really has to be your passion. Blackjack IS my passion and in my 11th year of supporting myself from BJ play, I still love blackjack and love what I do for a living. That's not to say that there aren't some days..... (or even some weeks..lol)

I kind of equate it to a being in any business for yourself, especially early on when there are ups and downs and long hours.

This quote of TeddyBear's brought me back to my worse time and I thought I share it (share the misery). It was 3 years ago, 2011. I had a real good first half of the year. As the year turned on July 1, so did my fortunes. I went through a 5 week long period where I lost about 20% of my bankroll. I experienced a robbery at gunpoint where I lost some bankroll. Luckily (I guess) it was at the end of a losing day or could have been worse. And then things really got bad. I suddenly got pretty sick. Has an viral infection that was eating my heart valves which came on very suddenly and required heart surgery. I had complications while recovering and ended up being laid up for nearly 3 months. 3 months of no money coming in, while th medical bills started rolling in. And all this coming on the heels of what at the time was my worse downturn, so I had plenty of time to think about and dwell on things at just the wrong time (after losing period).

It just seemed like money was flying out the window. Seemed like I left the faucet running and money was running out. That was not a good feeling. By the time, I got healthy and back 'to work', I could look back to late June and see where all told, between losing period, robbery, hospital bills, regular living expenses going out with no money coming in, I was down nearly half my bankroll and entire wealth. Maybe that was motivation to get healthy and back to work...lol, I don't know. I do know, that was when I learned that I needed a much bigger, 'nestegg' to fall back on.

Anyway, about this family guy thing and professional player. I do know and communicate regularly with one pro player that is a family guy and has pretty successfully managed things. I believe he falls into that category where his wife makes a good living too, but am not 100% sure. He is an occasional poster on this site and I am going to drop him a line and see if he will weigh in and maybe share some insight to that special circumstances.

I would like to say go for it. I cant imagine doing something you hate day after day. Sometimes you have to say to yourself screw it, I have to know. It will suck when you look back 12 years from now and think, what if or if only.I say You should not have to be miserable for the next 10 years. Others will say, once you had kids, that's the choice you made. Do you want to gamble on your kids future? Possibly you have a plan you cant make plans for AP. The casinos always mess with your plans.

The main problem I find with what you want to do(other then the kids), is the fact that counting is NOT ENOUGH for what your BR is. You better have more tricks up your sleeve (no pun intended)and they better be good tricks. Not knowing this, says you are not ready at all. If you have to ask the answer is NO.

Very few people in your situation drop everything and became AP's. Most people ease into it and make sure its working well for a while. They end up finding their job is just not worth keeping anymore and its getting in the way. I know a lot of people who just fell into AP situations. Some guys started working for others first, they didn't wake up one day and think, hey I should try this, and bingo it worked. Take a look at a few guys that were very smart, well bankrolled with connections, guys who have failed. Ask yourself why you are different or better. Determination is not enough sometimes its just luck, right place right time. Rarely do you hear about all the people who failed.There are guys in this forum who have more money to work with and do well playing part time and they wont even quit their jobs.

If you are dead set on doing this, I suggest you learn much more then counting and put it off until you have enough money to be comfortable or find something with better potential with a more steady income. If you can find a few thing like that then I say go for it.

Quote: AxelWolf

Rarely do you hear about all the people who failed.

"...but I'll tell you what happens to 'em.
They end up humping crappy jobs on graveyard shifts,
trying to figure out how they came up short.
See, I had this picture in my head.
Me sitting at the big table, Doyle to my left,
Amarillo Slim to my right, playing in the World Series of Poker.
And I let that vision blind me at the table against KGB.
Now, the closest I get to Vegas is west New York,
driving this lousy route handed down from Knish...
to rounders who forget the cardinal fuckin' rule...
Always leave yourself outs." - Mike McDermott(narrating), Rounders

Wow everyone. So much great, honest feedback I don't really know where to begin. I can say that you have made my mundane job interesting for the last few minutes as I read through all the posts. I know I am newbie status here with this being my first post and all but I have been gambling my entire life in some form or fashion. BJ has been the most prevalent throughout the years and although I'm relatively new to the card counting scene I do know very well about the wild swings gambling in general present, not only to your BR, but also to your finances in general.

But this is why I asked this question here. There's a lot more to this life decision than just me hating my job. Yes, being able to have a flexible schedule to spend more time with my girls is appealing, as is knowing that I'm working for myself instead of someone else. Kewlj made some remarks about passion and that is one of the few things I can guarantee I do not lack. Although, a good point was made by someone on this thread about what would happen when this really is my "job" and if the passion might start to diminish once I start seeing it from that viewpoint. This question would be hard to answer without me taking this leap. Someone had also made mention about where in the US, someone could support a family of 4 off $30K/yr take home pay. Keep in mind, my wife also works full time as a stylist which brings home additional $$$ every month we use towards our monthly expenses, etc. This is one of the ways we've been able to put money in savings every year and yes, the $75K is all of my savings which I didn't consider when disclosing that amount as my full BR. Also, just so you all know, I live in Oklahoma and while we have nary a coastline here, the people here are genuine and the cost of living is hard to beat.

Also, kewlj's initial reply did make me think a little bit more about my daughter's futures. Maybe keeping this as a hobby, at least until they're out of the nest, wouldn't be such a bad idea. It's hard enough on yourself and/or your SO when you hit a rough patch, it probably isn't fair to have that affect your kids' quality of life when it's something they have absolutely no control over. I understand nothing is guaranteed but like AxelWolf said, I have already been doing this 9-5 grind for well over 10 years of my life. If it were going to get better or become less mundane, it would have by now. I'm just sitting here wondering "what if" and if I died tomorrow I wouldn't feel like I took all the chances being alive affords people. I don't want to be that guy but I probably should have thought about this before I had the family, I just wasn't in a situation financially where I thought that could be a viable option. I am now.

That being said, I think I'm going to take the next 3 months and continue to play consistently at the tribal casinos here. I have a spreadsheet I've been using the last 3 months to track things like time spent vs investment made vs losses, etc. Maybe after 6 months of data gathered, I can make a more educated decision rather or not I could make a living doing this. One thing that I have that I think is a must with any gambler is, I'm not afraid to lose.

As I've stated previously, I really appreciate all the honest, straight forward, no bullshit replies to this post. When the day comes that I bite the bullet, maybe I'll move my spreadsheet to these forums so we can watch me fail or succeed together. I'm sure that thread may interest some more than this one has, but this thread is exactly what I was looking for when I posed the question.

Cheers to you all,
~G

One thing to consider:

Is the passion for not working at your job the reason for wanting to count cards, or is it the passion to play blackjack the reason why you want to pursue counting? A lot of people fall into the trap of "I need to get out of my boring job" into a business of some sort, and most fail extremely hard, such as some of those shows that turn around bad businesses such as Bar Rescue, Kitchen Nightmares, etc. These guys had a passion to get out of their rat race into something, anything that isn't their usual routine but they had no idea how big the endeavor was.

My point is that it'll probably be a lot better to test the waters by pursuing counting as a part time job/hobby until you have results where you are comfortable doing it as your sole source of income.

I should have taken this advice..... I just moved to Las Vegas and hoped for the best, and it worked out but it could have gone bad as well. Luckily I don't have a family so I'm not worried about going busto and having to go back to work. Good luck to you.

Quote: djatc

I should have taken this advice..... I just moved to Las Vegas and hoped for the best, and it worked out but it could have gone bad as well. Luckily I don't have a family so I'm not worried about going busto and having to go back to work. Good luck to you.

Right place. right time, right people, many irons in the fire, willing to adapt, travel and keep crazy hours.

It sound like he has one tool in his shed. Your 3% average on VP/slots mix in some other things where you get out 100s of thousands of hands vs his 1% getting very few hands is a big difference.

tell him how many hrs you spend at home.

Quote: AxelWolf

3% average on VP/slots

Seriously?

Quote: AxelWolf

Right place. right time, right people, many irons in the fire, willing to adapt, travel and keep crazy hours.

It sound like he has one tool in his shed. Your 3% average on VP/slots mix in some other things where you get out 100s of thousands of hands vs his 1% getting very few hands is a big difference.

tell him how many hrs you spend at home.

djatc, you're a professional SLOT player? Am I reading that right?? I didn't know that was possible.

I think the replies in here are well-intentioned but maybe a little simplistic. Perhaps I can relate more easily, as I knew very early on in life that I wasn't cut out for the 9-5 lifestyle. For every extended downswing, tough or distressing professional moment, or period of doubt and sheer panic that I've had as a professional player, I've never once regretted leaving the security of the working world. Some people are not meant for that world, and if you're on of them, you'll never be happy until you figure out a way to leave it.

That said, the number one issue to me would be the fact that you have daughters. Making a good living playing blackjack isn't that difficult, but it's dicey if you have a family to support, especially at the beginning. Until you have enough saved up to weather the longer downswings, you'll find that they are more punishing than you expected. Try living several months with no income. When you're first starting out, it's very tough to estimate how much you'll need in emergency funds, and if you simply remove these funds from your bankroll, you'll dramatically either increase your risk or lower your win rate.

However, and far more importantly, there's the issue of time. To make money as a professional blackjack player, you have to travel constantly. There are a few exceptions (e.g., people like kewljason who are based in LV and have access to a wide range of games suitable for their playing style), but in general, if you want to make enough money to really live, you're going to be on the road a lot. Your daughters won't see you on a consistent basis. Granted, you can work this out to where you're home more often in general (due to not being in the office any more), but it will be tough on your family, trust me.

Finally, making a good living playing blackjack with $75K is trivial — if you're already an experienced player who is capable of employing a variety of different techniques, most of which will be significantly stronger than card counting. Acquisition of these skills is a double-edged sword, as now you can take what I said about traveling and multiply that by 10. Many of the professional players I know essentially live out of a suitcase.

It can definitely be done, and if you're the type that simply can't survive in a 9-5 environment, then you'll probably find a way. My recommendation would be to have a full year's salary saved up, completely separate from your bankroll. That means $75K operating capital and at least $55K in the bank. Realistically, I would want more in the bank. If you do take the plunge, work constantly on increasing your edge.

It's a tough job. Good luck!

Let's forget the Card Counting for an instant, and look at the "boring life" situation.
1. Check whether the "life sucks" feeling is ONLY due to job considerations.
2. There are ways to enhance pleasure during the off-job hours. That should be your first line of research.
3. Beware of wanting to make your leisure hobby a job. It usually takes the fun out of it. What makes a job a chore is the money aspect, the obligations, the time management. All of which, being absent, makes the hobby enjoyable.

Take my example. I love books, I love buying old books. When at your crossroads, I thought of investing in an old-book store and make my leisure a living. Happily I first tried to do it as an employee for someone else. quickly realised what I mentioned: making it a job took all the pleasure out of it.
Now I'm a teacher. My job activities (teaching) make for a real good time, I love doing it. (Not so much the eaxams, meetings and admin...) But the thing is, IT IS NOT A HOBBY.

So my advice is, keep gambling as a hobby (maybe garnering some welcome income) and find a job where the day-to-day activity is not a chore.

You have a decent start on your bankroll, but you should strongly consider increasing it.
The levels required to realize enough income to "make a living" still surprises many, and you need the reduced risk of ruin provided by large bankrolls.

Do you feel that you currently have the ability to cover expenses and increase your bankroll only with winnings?
Consider your current funds as "seed money", and make it a goal to increase your bankroll (plus cover expenses) only with winnings. Do not use outside sources (savings, bonuses, gifts, etc.) to increase BR or cover expenses.

I'm sure the responses ranged from "follow your dreams" to ''Its a tough way to make an easy living" to "inadequate bankroll" reminders about "responsibilities in life" although most of those responsibilities (wife, daughters) would just love to a professional gambler particularly if he good at it and happy about it.

You are in the "training grounds" and should be rigorous about accounting for gas, mileage, tips, time, meals,etc.
When Thorpe's book came out alot of people became great counters in their New Jersey recreation rooms, then they flew to Vegas and got hit by "the buzz" of festive music, very festive females, alert dealers and not so festive floor persons. The cards just didn't"count right" when its the real thing in Vegas instead of your bowling league friends in Jersey.

As a hobby its probably going to fun for you. As a full time job it may indeed be more fun than you've ever imagined. But there are no vacations from being a full time gambler.

As I understand it, until you are at the BlackChip level, you are an amateur. After that, its either working for you or not. So continue with your hobby, see if remains fun to be on the spot in better and better casinos. Your daughters will look forward to the time you taught them blackjack... even if you brought them into the casino only as "cover".

Quote: Wizard

I agree with the consensus of the advice above. A big old NO from me. Not only is card counting not very profitable but the life of a professional gambler does not mesh well with that of a family man. It can be done, but it isn't easy.

I've always felt card counting is one of those professions that sounds better than it turns out to be in real life....

The old adage of "find a job you love doing and never work a day in your life", is what draws people to it. Same goes for sports handicapping.

A few more questions for you....
1. If you quit your job, and Blackjack AP does not work out, can you get a job similar to your present 'mundane' job for similar (55k) money?
2. Have you figured in the cost of health insurance? Loss of accumulating social security years of service? (Or paying the BOTH halves of social security tax if you declare the income?)
3. Are you willing to move if your local casinos back you off?
4. (not sure if this is applicable to you...) Are you willing to spend the greater part of your life in a cigarette smoking environment?

I wish you well......

Quote: SOOPOO

A few more questions for you....
1. If you quit your job, and Blackjack AP does not work out, can you get a job similar to your present 'mundane' job for similar (55k) money?
2. Have you figured in the cost of health insurance? Loss of accumulating social security years of service? (Or paying the BOTH halves of social security tax if you declare the income?)
3. Are you willing to move if your local casinos back you off?
4. (not sure if this is applicable to you...) Are you willing to spend the greater part of your life in a cigarette smoking environment?

I wish you well......

If he quits his job, he qualifies for Medicaid. Maybe he should quit, assuming he plans on never paying taxes.

Quote: Sonuvabish

If he quits his job, he qualifies for Medicaid. Maybe he should quit, assuming he plans on never paying taxes.

there's no reason to assume someone should turn a completely legitimate career into a felony offense, especially with a family.

Quote: mcallister3200

there's no reason to assume someone should turn a completely legitimate career into a felony offense, especially with a family.

I already gave my advice. This was a quip. Maybe it was less obvious than I thought...

Quote: LonesomeGambler

I think the replies in here are well-intentioned but maybe a little simplistic. Perhaps I can relate more easily, as I knew very early on in life that I wasn't cut out for the 9-5 lifestyle. For every extended downswing, tough or distressing professional moment, or period of doubt and sheer panic that I've had as a professional player, I've never once regretted leaving the security of the working world. Some people are not meant for that world, and if you're on of them, you'll never be happy until you figure out a way to leave it.

+10000

I had at least 10 jobs before becoming a pro. I was self employed for 3 jobs, and every job until my last one I felt unsatisfied, and thought it was because of the type of work. The thing is that it wasn't the job, it was the feeling that I was trapped in some rat race spinning my wheels over and over for money. The confining schedule, the hours before heading to work I dreaded, and the 1 hour lunch which reminded me only half the day was done. The "5 hour energy commercial" of the afternoon crash, then the boredom of watching the clock go tick tock until quitting time. But wait! You have to drive home. You have to make/buy dinner. You have to buy groceries/crap that can't wait for the weekend. Perhaps you have to workout.

Ok so you get home. You might have a few hours before heading to bed, so you watch some TV/play video games/make sexytime with the wife. Now you have to go to sleep at a time you don't want, to get up at a time too early for your schedule, because you need the paycheck. You wake up after closing your eyes for the night, which feels like an instant, and get breakfast ready. The time you eat might be enough to watch the news, so you might grab an energy bar for the drive back to the 9-5.

You'll get a break on the weekend. Friday nights when the tiredness of the week goes away, until Sunday night. Although if you have chores piling up you'll have to do them on the weekend, or maybe errands. You might get a BBQ get together every now and then. You might get a weekend with the in-laws every now and then. You'll give up weekends for some work get together every now and then.

I couldn't do it. I knew there had to be a way to enjoy what I was doing, and make money doing it. Many people try, but can only get enjoyment out of what they do, but no money, or money but no enjoyment in what they were doing. Maybe I am spoiled but I want both. I really don't enjoy gambling, but I enjoy going around and looking for great plays that could potentially be worth a lot of money.

Don't get me wrong, it's not all fun and games. I'm on call 24/7, I go into places I wouldn't be comfortable in, I'm dealing with hustlers/drunks constantly, and a great play doesn't = money in the bank. Sometimes I lose (but I got value!) and the play goes away. Sometimes you get barred for doing the right thing. Sometimes you get barred because people that work at the casino think you are "cheating" (because they can't prove what you are doing and they are ignorant). There are people who think card counting is "cheating", and the basis of that statement is something they've heard and haven't researched themselves. It doesn't matter, you're still wrong and they are right. This twisted logic is something you'll have to deal with on a daily basis.

Your office is an entertainment den for drunks and dumbasses that believe that all it takes to be a professional gambler is to get lucky. You're surrounded by smoke. You're expected to make split second mathematical decisions while some chick on her 21st birthday is yelling at the top of her lungs when she wins $5.00 on a slot machine. If anyone knows what you do for a living in the casino, they will be jealous of you and hate you without them finding out anything about you. Casino employees will mistake you for a degenerate gambler, and will treat you very nicely but behind closed doors will talk about you like you're some idiot who's flushing his bank account away. You'll be the conversation piece of their dinner table. "Son, don't grow up to be like these degenerate gamblers I see everyday at work, such as this guy who's always on the video poker machine. He's a sucker."

If you're on a team or work with others you'll sometimes have disagreements on how to handle a play, and have to make muted arguments because you don't want anyone to overhear you, or give any other pros any tips. You'll have to figure out a way to talk in code a bit to throw off the ploppies. You'll develop a plan outside a casino, and hope to God nothing goes wrong because you probably won't be able to leave the play, and do anything suspicious-looking as the eye is on you. Remember the part I wrote about where I said if you could do everything right and still get thrown out? Imagine if you're doing something that looks remotely shifty, you'll automatically get heat.

Even with all those negatives, it still beats the feeling of being trapped in a 9-5. I've read mickeycrimm's stories before moving to Las Vegas and it really opened my eyes to the freedom of being able to be wherever, do whatever, and answer to no one but your bank account. I'm not street-wise or street-tough like him but I can relate to being able to make money from your wits and enjoy the freedom of being your own boss.

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

Seriously?

I kid you not. Not every hand/spin he plays is 3%, but I would say he averages about that. This is his story to tell but Dj is a hell of a grinder and a hard smart ambitious worker. He puts in long hrs playing and scouting. Zipping around LV in his gay Miata, he was cashing in every mailer, coupon, comp, freebies. He dose not pass up any bonus slot machine or play he finds worth playing big or small and he always seems to be looking. It adds up 10 here 15 there an occasional descent hit. I never see him sit and do nothing for to long, its almost annoying, ill be talking to him, turn around, and he will be gone looking at some bonus machine. He always has his eyes open (although its hard to tell).

Soon after he first got to town permanently, he was introduced to some plays that made him really open his eyes, (grinding.7 at the palms or where ever just want going to get it) one was worth about 3% and it lasted for months. Add running lucky to that, he seemed to have a Royal every other day on something. Obviously he plays things that are not worth as much as 3% here and there keeping up casino status or getting some nice comps or salad tongs, but he has played many promos worth far more(3 sets of salad tongs;). When things get slow im sure he will lower his average if he wants to keep in action but on the flip side when monster plays come along, his average will shoot back up.

My story is kinda the flipside to djatc I believe. We came to town at about the same time, probably both on too small of bankrolls. I am a counter and vp player. My first month I put in a ton of hours of vp to generate mailers, and got crushed by the variance that is ever present in vp, as well as playing a little too much or not enough at certain places to generate sufficient mailers as there was some trial and error with my main resources being here and vpfree. Along with a little negative variance with blackjack, which I was already comfortable with having dealt with those periods before. I would like to learn about advantage slots, but don't really know where to start other than bits and pieces in the forum here. I don't regret it at all. I did have to get a part time job, and i still play as much as I can and have been building the bankroll to where it is above where it was, although unsteadily. The tough thing is, with having a job, it is difficult to find time to scout, so I tend to just grind out the type of plays I already know without spending much time looking for anything better. It was worth a shot and I'm glad I did, and will probably try again. But I did not have family considerations, and 30-35 k jobs are everwhere and easy to replace, you would have to consider how easy you could replace your current income if it didn't work out.

Yeah, so I need to learn how to break paragraphs on a mobile phone, trying to read my last post is ridiculous.

Quote: Gyella

yes, the $75K is all of my savings

seriously, quitting your job and trying to play BJ for a living on what would be your realistic bankroll is out of the question

perhaps part-time while building a usable bankroll is the best idea. But I would listen to those who have said you might not be as keen on BJ once it becomes your job

The only thing that caught my attention badly was "nickel tables". I wasn't aware those existed. My local casinos have 100x the min and they say that's generous because it should be $10 min...

Quote: Neutrino

The only thing that caught my attention badly was "nickel tables". I wasn't aware those existed. My local casinos have 100x the min and they say that's generous because it should be $10 min...

I think in OK you pay a quarter a hand for the honor of playing them.

I agree with most of the posters that it is a very bad idea to quite your job and go for full time pro at this time.
There very few full time BJ Counting Pros out there.
A lot of Pros have additional skills in BJ (ie ST) and also jave skill to exploy other games, promotions etc.
I have met a few International Pros (I am not from the US). One International Pro I met travelled to around 50 countries over a period of 4-5 years made some money and invested them into a restaurant in his home country and thereafter only did BJ part-time.
I have played as a serious hobby for about 4 years and now I play a lot less.
I also have had my own business for many years including those 4 years. In on oef those 4 years I made more money from BJ than from my business.

Your hobby can develop into what I call a 'serious hobby'.
Finding additional times to play except from what you currently play.
For example arranging holidays to places which have BJ (ie Vegas). And you do not have to spent all the time playing BJ. You can go for a 1 week family vacation and sepent half the time playing BH and half the time enjoying Vegas with the family.
I took a vacation of 3 weeks to California and Nevada (coming from far away). 10 days seeing California with a rental car. 10 days in Vegas playing BJ but also seeing the sights, seeing 3 shows, enjoying very good food etc. I got comped like 80% of my Vegas expenses (RFB, shows etc) and I Won enogh to cover all the 3 weeks expenses and air-tickets and a very good remainiding win. That's what I call a 'serious hobby'.

An American with a serious BJ hobby could do a similar thing travelling into Europe, Asia etc. Vacations that might not be affordable without the BJ and might never materialise without the BJ side.