What's the max. house edge you will play?
Personally, I'll play just about anything for a short period of time if it's entertaining. Generally the worse the house edge the higher the payout you get if you get lucky. Lucky ladies is a horrible house edge game, but pays 1,000-1 if you nail it. I know everyone here things they are an AP and you have to play like a professional to win money, but that's not actually how it works in reality unless you are trying to make gambling your career.
ZCore13
I'm a recreational player, and don't have anywhere near the bankroll to play AP properly. But I do use Fred Rezney's KISS count to help decide when I should let it ride. Also, there are no real casinos near where I live, only "racinos" with digital games. If I drive about two hours, though, I have a lot of options. Going from place to place, the best game I found is $50 DD S17. No double after split or surrender, with a house edge of .33. Same room has a $25 6D with about the same house edge, but I find the pitch game more entertaining.
Seems to me like those are decent games?
I know it won't last, but in the last two weeks I've played about 8 hours of DD and turned $500 into $7500. I've never had anything even approaching that success at other tables.
;-)
Quote: Zcore13The OP is asking what is the maximum house edge YOU personally would play, not what are the lowest house edge games to play.
Mea culpa! For recreational play the highest house edge game I play is JoB bar slots with a house edge >5%. I get to spend time with my wife while she plays, and at 25-cents a hand I don't lose much. I use Wizard's basic strategy and gauge success as actual loss vs. theoretical loss. I almost always wind up tipping the bartender more than I have lost for a session. Sometimes I get to cash out a win.
When socializing with friends I'll play some of the carnival games: 3 card poker (ante/play only), Let it Ride. Basically, when gambling as a social activity I look for games with a house edge <4% when facing $10 table minimums. When gambling alone (meaning I don't know the other players) I mainly play BJ, occasionally craps or baccarat. Sorry I didn't read your OP closely.
I share card info with neighbours, bet the 4th unit on their 3x bets if they let me, catch hole cards infrequently (it's tough at my local casinos), etc.
Occasionally I have placed the 6 or 8 in Craps, still less than 2%, and I do mean I seldom do this.
Rarely, on a lark, I'll bet a dollar on a Yo bet; probably have bet less than $20 that way in my life, not counting bets for the dealers.
PS: there is an old thread with a similar title if anyone want to search for it.
Anything more than that, I say "That's it! I'm drawing a line, I'm outta here!"
Quote: ThatDonGuyWhatever the edge is for 8/5 Jacks or Better, which I think is about 2.8% using my strategy
Ouch! Is that the best that's available in your area or something? The problem is that VP is such a fast game that this really adds up. Edge does not tell the whole story; it's really about edge multiplied by hands per hour.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceOuch! Is that the best that's available in your area or something? The problem is that VP is such a fast game that this really adds up. Edge does not tell the whole story; it's really about edge multiplied by hands per hour.
VP has gone through some changes at Mohegan Sun. About two years ago, iirc, signs were put on all the VP machines notifying players that they would not get any comp points playing on those machines. The signs are gone,, but now I can't find a VP game with a pay table better than 96%, and that's high limits. Has anyone seen similar changes elsewhere?
Quote: 98ClubsDue to slow-play and many ties PGP is a good choice even at -2.5%.
Can't you bank? IMO the edge is too high in PGP without banking, but if I see a table with a few people playing (and never banking!) at stakes that I'm comfortable with (high enough to be worth my time; not so high that I wouldn't want to bank) I will sit and play. Hard to really compute the edge in this case since I don't really know what the ratio of banking to non-banking wagers is, and I don't know how well the other players will set their hands.
Basically I am happy if I can bet $100 when I am not banking, get $300 or so in action when I am banking (including from the house), and bank half the hands. I suspect that this is more or less break-even for me.
Quote: ProfessorApeTitle really says it all. I'm curious to know what the house edge needs to be before you consider it a "good" game.
I would go with 0.65% as playable depending on conditions, and under 0.5% as generally good. In my area, you cannot find many S17 games, which is probably why 1BB suggests a significantly lower edge. And the ones you can find are not as good as some of the games with a higher edge because of penetration. When the edge starts creeping up to 0.7%, I don't bother.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceBasically I am happy if I can bet $100 when I am not banking, get $300 or so in action when I am banking (including from the house), and bank half the hands. I suspect that this is more or less break-even for me.
How are you able to bank half the hands when there are other players at the table? Do you sit out while the banker button comes back around?
98Clubs as of 6 months ago Mohegan still had full pay pickem which is 99.95.There were signs on the machines saying that you would not earn comps,but it was still better to play them,than the bad pay games.Quote: 98ClubsI stopped playing VP in CT about 8 years ago. Nothing was really much more than 97%. Due to slow-play and many ties PGP is a good choice even at -2.5%. Faster play would be 21 at -0.4%. UTH is also a good choice for variance -2.3% (-0.55% per unit). Craps is less than 1% with odds and the occasional 6/8. I would say -2% give or take pace of play.
Quote: DeucekiesHow are you able to bank half the hands when there are other players at the table? Do you sit out while the banker button comes back around?
Most players don't bank. If other players are banking I will find a table where they aren't! (This is almost never a problem)
Quote: ProfessorApeTitle really says it all. I'm curious to know what the house edge needs to be before you consider it a "good" game.
First time I've seen 'house edge' and 'good' used in the same sentence.
Some games are just better to play than others.
Only two games are suitable to me.
My Blackjack limit is .38%.
Craps limit is a combined HE of .85%.
Low SD is also important.
Quote: TankoLow SD is also important.
Recreational gamblers want a high standard deviation. With a low SD you have a smaller chance of a winning session.
APs want a low SD.
As far as a counting game, again, it depends. I sure as hell won't be playing a 6 or 8 deck game with a 0.1% HE if it's got 50% penetration. But I might play a 0.7% house edge game (6-8Deck) if the penetration is 85%+. Then again, there are other factors....is mid-shoe-entry allowed, is there a max on mid-shoe-entry, or am I able to spread enough to generate enough EV without getting sweated too much, etc. And in the end, you can't really say "this is the max HE I will play", because after all, it depends on what kind of edge you can generate, which (for a counting game), can be rather easily figured by running a sim on the game. If I can make $X/hour, I will play it. If I cannot make $X/hour, then I won't play it.
As for Pai Gow Poker, you should always bank and you want others at your table to bank too --- you just don’t play against them. That reduces the hit on your bankroll considerably.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceOuch! Is that the best that's available in your area or something?
"My Area" is Vegas - okay, it's only about a 30-minute drive to Cache Creek or Graton, but I don't know what VP they have at those casinos (besides, Graton is mobbed with tourists, and have you seen the roads you have to get on to get to Cache Creek?).
Who has 9/6 machines that aren't always occupied?
This also depends on the recreational player's goals. Many rec players are looking for entertainment. For them a slight HE with low SD means they can consistently plan on how long they will be able to gamble.Quote: dwheatleyRecreational gamblers want a high standard deviation. With a low SD you have a smaller chance of a winning session.
Quote: RSI don't determine a game by what the house edge is, but by what MY edge is. I might play a 1.5%+ house edge game, but if I can generate a 15% edge playing it, I will certainly play it, since it's beatable. On the other hand, I'm not going to sit down at a 0.1% house edge game if I can't beat it. I'm talking about non-counting techniques. For some games, the HE doesn't really matter because you can slam out a huge player edge. IE: You can see dealer's hole card as well as getting next-card information....does it matter if BJ pays 1:1, if you can re-split or double after split? Yes, it matters, but the difference is rather trivial since you're generating such a huge edge.
As far as a counting game, again, it depends. I sure as hell won't be playing a 6 or 8 deck game with a 0.1% HE if it's got 50% penetration. But I might play a 0.7% house edge game (6-8Deck) if the penetration is 85%+. Then again, there are other factors....is mid-shoe-entry allowed, is there a max on mid-shoe-entry, or am I able to spread enough to generate enough EV without getting sweated too much, etc. And in the end, you can't really say "this is the max HE I will play", because after all, it depends on what kind of edge you can generate, which (for a counting game), can be rather easily figured by running a sim on the game. If I can make $X/hour, I will play it. If I cannot make $X/hour, then I won't play it.
15% edge? OK. There ya go, OP. You should be playing with a 15% edge instead of looking for a low house edge. Hard to find a game with liberal rules where the cards are shuffled face up. You should just steal chips, that's got a higher edge.
Quote: ThatDonGuy"My Area" is Vegas - okay, it's only about a 30-minute drive to Cache Creek or Graton, but I don't know what VP they have at those casinos (besides, Graton is mobbed with tourists, and have you seen the roads you have to get on to get to Cache Creek?).
Who has 9/6 machines that aren't always occupied?
I will PM you...
describe by this function. [value minus cost]/[value minus cost minus opportunity cost]
I have spreadsheets.
ya for sure, i even have a spreadsheet to figure out if the the spreadsheets are useful.
Quote: chrisrim using a definition of value that is in my head and makes that formula work.
ya for sure, i even have a spreadsheet to figure out if the the spreadsheets are useful.
If this makes any sense at all, you are not explaining it very well. I don't mean that as an insult -- I just have no idea what you are talking about.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceMost players don't bank. If other players are banking I will find a table where they aren't! (This is almost never a problem)
Some houses have really crappy banking rules, where the banking "opportunity" zig zags between the dealer and each player position, and even if the player doesn't want to bank, or even if the spot is empty, that turn is still taken, and the bank reverts to the dealer. In this way, the house offers you the opportunity to bank once every fourteen hands regardless of the number of other players who are present or who want to bank.
Obviously, this is a terrible rule. But AFAIK, there are no regulations regarding the banking turns and houses are free to not offer player banking at all if they so choose. So it's just something you have to ask about before sitting down at a table with a bunch of action that you want to bank as often as possible.
Quote: AcesAndEightsSome houses have really crappy banking rules, where the banking "opportunity" zig zags between the dealer and each player position, and even if the player doesn't want to bank, or even if the spot is empty, that turn is still taken, and the bank reverts to the dealer. In this way, the house offers you the opportunity to bank once every fourteen hands regardless of the number of other players who are present or who want to bank.
Obviously, this is a terrible rule. But AFAIK, there are no regulations regarding the banking turns and houses are free to not offer player banking at all if they so choose. So it's just something you have to ask about before sitting down at a table with a bunch of action that you want to bank as often as possible.
Yes, I have heard this. At the places where I play, it goes around the table, and skips anyone who doesn't want to bank -- so if I'm the only one banking, I can bank half the hands. And the house will put up my bet + 10% against me. So I try to find tables where I can bank half the hands, the other players are playing at stakes that I'm comfortable with (not too low or too high), and they don't mind playing against me. I have not actually run any numbers, but I figure that if I can pre-pay commission when the house is banking (bet $105 to win $100) and get $300-$500 in action (spread among 4 hands) when I am banking, and I can bank half the hands, I am doing ok. Not trying to make money or anything; just play more or less break-even (I suspect I have a slight edge but I haven't actually looked into it)
Quote: chrisrim using a definition of value that is in my head and makes that formula work.
ya for sure, i even have a spreadsheet to figure out if the the spreadsheets are useful.
You're dividing by zero. Your result is infinity. Infinity = 10. 10 = 742. Best I can make it of it, your function is meaningless.
My wife loves it, so I always end up playing it a bit whenever we get to a casino.
Last time in Vegas (January) we both had pretty good luck at the digital roulette table (actual wheel/dealer, digital betting with a $3 minimum and $0.50 bets on the inside). I was playing $0.50 on each of the last ten numbers to hit - dealer was hitting a lot of the same numbers. With only $20 in I think I had three drinks and cashed out with nearly $100 after hitting a high of $180 or so. This is obviously out of the ordinary for a roulette table but that's part of the appeal with roulette - when you win, you win big (if you're playing inside).
I usually play Craps the Wizard's way - DP+odds. Blackjack holds little appeal for me.
Quote: BleedingChipsSlowlyVP has gone through some changes at Mohegan Sun. About two years ago, iirc, signs were put on all the VP machines notifying players that they would not get any comp points playing on those machines. The signs are gone,, but now I can't find a VP game with a pay table better than 96%, and that's high limits. Has anyone seen similar changes elsewhere?
A 2014 comment. Is it still accurate to say that VP really blows at Moh. Sun and in CT generally?
