Leaving/pausing because of ploppies, intermittent players, etc.

Quote: djatc

I'll get a proxy. I'm too pretty to be beat up.

You should be so lucky to be beaten up by casino security for AP.....you will be a very rich man after Sam is done with them :)

Quote: anonimuss

Casinos are the ones implanting it in player's heads that they lose because someone else played a hand wrong. People like to bury their head in the sand and don't want to be made aware that they're donating their money to a business that thinks gamblers are a bunch of idiots. It's merely a distraction tactic. Notice it's usually a dealer or a floor person that always brings it up first or makes a comment after a player leaves.

I respectfully disagree. Although I hear dealers frequently do as you describe, I do not think casinos are implanting ideas into anyone's heads. Gamblers can be vicious. Dealers and pit crews suffer extreme abuse. My first month of counting, using a 1-2 spread in 6D (and no advantage) and no cover, I suffered extreme abuse. I'd suddenly spread to two hands betting table minimum on each (that's my max bet), then I'd split 10s (guess that was good cover after all). Everyone who suffers repeated and unwarranted abuse wants it to end, and the guy who played wrong is an obvious scapegoat. And sometimes this type of thing becomes generally accepted 'wisdom' by weak players and low level employees, not by the casino.

Quote: Sonuvabish

I respectfully disagree. Although I hear dealers frequently do as you describe, I do not think casinos are implanting ideas into anyone's heads. Gamblers can be vicious. Dealers and pit crews suffer extreme abuse. My first month of counting, using a 1-2 spread in 6D (and no advantage) and no cover, I suffered extreme abuse. I'd suddenly spread to two hands betting table minimum on each (that's my max bet), then I'd split 10s (guess that was good cover after all). Everyone who suffers repeated and unwarranted abuse wants it to end, and the guy who played wrong is an obvious scapegoat. And sometimes this type of thing becomes generally accepted 'wisdom' by weak players and low level employees, not by the casino.

I have to say, I've never had any real abuse directed towards me. I've had some situations where people were clearly upset but they never said anything.

Then again, I'm far too cowardly to split 10's. In my mind, having a big bet out there and splitting 10s just looks too obvious. But maybe I'm just overly-cautious.

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

I have to say, I've never had any real abuse directed towards me. I've had some situations where people were clearly upset but they never said anything.

Then again, I'm far too cowardly to split 10's. In my mind, having a big bet out there and splitting 10s just looks too obvious. But maybe I'm just overly-cautious.

As my bets started to increase, I got more bold with it because people are less abusive when you are betting more--especially when you are betting significantly more than they are--I am not 100% sure about the mentality behind that--biggest bettor owns the table? Then as they increased more, I stopped doing it exactly why you don't do it...even the dumbest player at the table is now suspicious that I am up to something. I only split 10s now if A) I am alone at the table or B) A super-ploppy has been doing it, he's still at the table, and it is fresh in everyone's mind.

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Quote: anonimuss

Casinos are the ones implanting it in player's heads that they lose because someone else played a hand wrong. People like to bury their head in the sand and don't want to be made aware that they're donating their money to a business that thinks gamblers are a bunch of idiots. It's merely a distraction tactic. Notice it's usually a dealer or a floor person that always brings it up first or makes a comment after a player leaves.

Does a player at your table making bad decisions actually make a difference to your wins overall?
I know that most players where I play will scream and shout if a ploppie makes a dumb move that causes them to lose but are happy to stay quiet when it works in their favour.

Quote: Walkinshaw30t

Does a player at your table making bad decisions actually make a difference to your wins overall?
I know that most players where I play will scream and shout if a ploppie makes a dumb move that causes them to lose but are happy to stay quiet when it works in their favour.

There are other people at the table? I like this quote because it says it all and needs no explanation. I don't know who to credit for it but Norm W. says it on his site.

The answer to your question is no, it does not make a difference overall. This has been discussed ad nauseam on all the blackjack sites and everyone is in agreement.

My view is that any play, bad or good, by the book or on a whim, changes the course of the universe until the end of time. You don't hit that 16, or don't double that soft 18, and as a result every card from that point until the end of the shoe is "off by one". So I get a blackjack three rounds later that I would not have gotten if you had hit 16 like you should. Any play, good or bad, has no more or less chance of changing fate, for better or worse. Sit out a hand and two fewer cards are put in play. What does that do to/for you, and for how long?

I like to play at third base. I hit 12 against a 2 and bust with a 10. The dealer turns over his 10... and then draws a 9 for 21. The crowd goes wild, especially the "experts". Try to explain that the odds are 9:4 that my hand will NOT draw a 10 (and also 9:4 that the dealer won't either...) but all they see is that I "took the dealer's bust card." The amateurs - not really ploppies in the true sense of the word - folks out for a nice evening, having a good time, waiting to go to dinner or a show, etc., are okay with this. Folks playing with money that they can afford to lose and don't need to win are okay with this. But the professional ploppies, playing with the rent money or needing to win it, or with a "strategy" that involves simple rules ("I never hit a 16"), or who stare at that dealer 2, trying to divine the next card to come out of the shoe - the ones who don't know how to play but are certain that they do - give me the most grief. Those folks I LIKE to piss off, and the more upset they get, the more I just smile, shrug, and move on.

I like them to hang around because I can't count cards one-on-one. Not yet - I hope. I need other players to slow the game down. If I can't develop the skill to count more quickly, then I won't progress to the next stage, whatever that is. I play only at $5 tables, so as to reduce the downside of negative counts by having a lower minimum, again, until I can get better at this. So I spend a lot of time with the lame, the halt, and the blind. The great unwashed ploppyverse. Some of them acknowledge their ignorance, and can be guided, especially when it comes to obscure split and double calls. But there's nothing worse than a sincere idiot. Their stupid plays distract attention from my BS-proscribed ones: Double that soft 18? Yes. That soft 19? Are you nuts? Yes.

The more obnoxious they are, the more certain I am that the fates will intervene, over time, because we all know that any time you deviate from basic strategy you are moving the odds against you. The laws of probability are just that. Laws. So I take great comfort in the fact that the more they find fault, the more certain is their ultimate demise. I do shake my head in disbelief when that doubled 7 draws a 4, and then the dealer does in fact bust his 6. But keep on doubling that 7, my friend, and I will soon see you sleeping on a piece of cardboard set up next to a heating grate. Darwin was right. Too bad natural selection could not be applied at other locales other than the blackjack table. The world would be a better place.

Quote: 1BB

There are other people at the table? I like this quote because it says it all and needs no explanation. I don't know who to credit for it but Norm W. says it on his site.

The answer to your question is no, it does not make a difference overall. This has been discussed ad nauseam on all the blackjack sites and everyone is in agreement.

I wouldn't say there is no impact at all. Other players, ploppies, don't usually play very often. As a result, they will experience variance in the expectation of the effects of another player's errors. On the macro level you are correct, but at the micro level, there are definitely some 3rd party errors that made all the difference in the world.
Did I mention their expectation and variance based on the other player's decision is the exact same when the other player plays the hand correctly?

I think a counter is hurt when the count is high and the ploppy draws on stiffs against break cards, being more likely to draw a 10 than normal. It has been said that the running count tends to decrease in proportion to penetration, so that the error makes no difference. However, counters use estimation of penetration, they don't know exactly how many cards are in it...when were a talking about a difference in 1 card, it decreases penetration by 0. Does anyone agree or disagree that this type of error hurts the AP?