Leaving/pausing because of ploppies, intermittent players, etc.
Two things stuck in my mind more than anything:
1. I have four players at my table, whom I'll call A, B, C, and D, in order from my left to my right, so A is at first base. All four players are getting killed at this point, so without saying anything, C decides to sit out a hand. Well, it doesn't end well for the players, and A figures out that he would have hit the Pair Square for 10-1 if C had played. The next thing I know, A and C are verbally sparring, cursing at each other, and trying to involve me and the supervisor. The house forbids dealers from involving themselves in player disputes, and I really didn't want to get involved anyway, so I just let them spin their wheels, and soon enough, A colored up and left because of C.
2. Later on, a player sitting in spot 2 decides to waive off a hard 15. The next player over picks a fight with him over it and practically orders him to hit it. (I don't give advice and let players be ploppies if they choose; they can double hard 19 for all I care, and I've seen it.) The ploppy relents and hits - gets a 6 for a 21. However, another player sees this - and colors up. Another player leaves. So the ploppies took over the table. One doubled three different stiff hands (and made me want to pull my non-hair out of my head, since he won two of them.) Others stood on hands as low as 12 next to a 10. So because people can't handle ploppies, they leave, and I'm stuck with ploppies. What a day.
I'm aware that a well-versed counter probably doesn't give a damn if a ploppy splits 10s or waives off hard 15 against a face card. The cards are the cards. But would you leave over a major ploppy "screwing up the cards," or would you consider a blatant ploppy move to make such a player leave?
]Quote: hwccdealerOne doubled three different stiff hands (and made me want to pull my non-hair out of my head, since he won two of them.)
I was wondering. WHy did his decision to double make you "want to pull my non-hair out of my head"? Was it because of the blatancy of his bad play or was it because he wpon 2 out of 3 hands?
Just a question, no right or wrong really.
Quote: anonimussI had a guy at a table complain that every time I left the blackjack table midshoe to run to the bathroom he would get slaughtered. I told him when I leave the table he should bet 2 hands. The next time I left, when I came back I asked him if he jumped to two hands and how he did. He said he went to two hands and got crushed. He didn't say anything after that. I continued leaving on negative counts.
Bad man :)
Surprised the casino hasn't said anything to you yet!
Quote: Tomspur]
I was wondering. WHy did his decision to double make you "want to pull my non-hair out of my head"? Was it because of the blatancy of his bad play or was it because he wpon 2 out of 3 hands?
Just a question, no right or wrong really.
The part about wanting to pull my non-hair out of my head is because, now that I understand basic strategy, it pains me to see blatant ploppies win more often than not. It's like, either learn to play the game, tip well, or lose your money and go away. After dealing with the late Saturday night/Sunday morning crowd, filled with the worst human beings to enter a casino, that's pretty much how I feel.
The non-hair part is simply because I'm bald.
Quote: hwccdealerThe part about wanting to pull my non-hair out of my head is because, now that I understand basic strategy, it pains me to see blatant ploppies win more often than not. It's like, either learn to play the game, tip well, or lose your money and go away. After dealing with the late Saturday night/Sunday morning crowd, filled with the worst human beings to enter a casino, that's pretty much how I feel.
The non-hair part is simply because I'm bald.
I got the bald reference, thanks. Was just wondering about why you would get mad about anything......but I get your reasoning now, thanks for explaining!
Quote: TomspurI got the bald reference, thanks. Was just wondering about why you would get mad about anything......but I get your reasoning now, thanks for explaining!
"Mad" is a strong word. "Annoyed" is a better word. It's like, if you're going to play the game, learn to play it right.
Quote: hwccdealer"Mad" is a strong word. "Annoyed" is a better word. It's like, if you're going to play the game, learn to play it right.
My immediate opinion would be that if I were a player at a game where I could see my decisions was visibly making the dealer agitated or annoyed I would get a little irritated with that. I mean, it is my money and I can do with it as I please.
From your perspective (and I have been in your shoes before) I would concentrate on dealing the game and making the experience fun for the players.
This last statement I know is not always possible as people do tend to get very annoying once the drinks flow and their friends egg them on to do silly things but never forget, without the players there will be no casino. We need to always remeber that we are in a service industry first and in the correcting blackjack players league of extraordinary gentlemen second.....
Your job is an awful tough one though. Nothing I ever want to get back into again, but you never can tell :)
Quote: hwccdealerthey can double hard 19 for all I care, and I've seen it.
Must have been a count for the ages.
Quote: hwccdealer... Later on, a player sitting in spot 2 decides to waive off a hard 15. The next player over picks a fight with him over it and practically orders him to hit it...
I find a player's hitting 12 vs 4, 5, 6, or even 2 or 3, will inspire much more anger from the other players than a player's standing on 12-16 vs 7, 8, 9, 10, or ace. No wonder that you remember the relatively rare occurence of the hit 15 demand.
Your salary is paid by their mistakes. Robots are not as profitable players.Quote: hwccdealer"Mad" is a strong word. "Annoyed" is a better word. It's like, if you're going to play the game, learn to play it right.
Quote: hwccdealer... would you leave over a major ploppy "screwing up the cards,"
I am aware than many, maybe the majority, of players think the shoe can be fouled by "wrong" play, but I have yet to see any proof that is so. So for me, no, I would not leave the table based on other's play. Even if the remainder of the shoe offered bad beats after questionable play, I would attribute the loss to bad luck and nothing more. That is, my belief is there is no reasonable expectation of future bad luck based on questionable play. I will say it is mighty tempting proposition to believe when you have witnessed several times where bad luck does in fact follow non-standard play. But as I said, no one who does critical analysis of the game says bad play is a valid predictor for future bad luck.
Indirectly, if bad play leads to acrimonious bickering among the players then I might leave. But not because I believe the shoe is "bad."
Quote: hwccdealer"Mad" is a strong word. "Annoyed" is a better word. It's like, if you're going to play the game, learn to play it right.
If everyone learned to play it right, you might not have your job.
I don't think that blackjack would exist (except maybe at high limits) if everyone played while giving up just a 0.6% house edge.
Quote: onenickelmiracleYour salary is paid by their mistakes. Robots are not as profitable players.
About 80% of my salary comes from tips. Tips generally come from winners. This is why I like players who know what they're doing. Ploppies keep the lights on. Skilled players pay my salary.
Besides, winners, even if they just win some, are more fun to deal to.
Quote: mrcleanMust have been a count for the ages.
If only. The player I speak of did it on his first hand at my table - against a face card. Needless to say, he busted.
Quote: hwccdealerPloppies keep the lights on.
I think that's what he meant. If idiotic players didn't keep the lights on, dealers wouldn't have a salary.
Quote: hwccdealerAs a dealer, I like to think I see it all at some point - there's probably plenty I not only don't see but don;t care to, but in terms of bad play and responses to it, I see more than my fair share. And today on my table, I saw some things that frankly made me wish I'd been put on craps instead.
Two things stuck in my mind more than anything:
1. I have four players at my table, whom I'll call A, B, C, and D, in order from my left to my right, so A is at first base. All four players are getting killed at this point, so without saying anything, C decides to sit out a hand. Well, it doesn't end well for the players, and A figures out that he would have hit the Pair Square for 10-1 if C had played. The next thing I know, A and C are verbally sparring, cursing at each other, and trying to involve me and the supervisor. The house forbids dealers from involving themselves in player disputes, and I really didn't want to get involved anyway, so I just let them spin their wheels, and soon enough, A colored up and left because of C.
2. Later on, a player sitting in spot 2 decides to waive off a hard 15. The next player over picks a fight with him over it and practically orders him to hit it. (I don't give advice and let players be ploppies if they choose; they can double hard 19 for all I care, and I've seen it.) The ploppy relents and hits - gets a 6 for a 21. However, another player sees this - and colors up. Another player leaves. So the ploppies took over the table. One doubled three different stiff hands (and made me want to pull my non-hair out of my head, since he won two of them.) Others stood on hands as low as 12 next to a 10. So because people can't handle ploppies, they leave, and I'm stuck with ploppies. What a day.
I'm aware that a well-versed counter probably doesn't give a damn if a ploppy splits 10s or waives off hard 15 against a face card. The cards are the cards. But would you leave over a major ploppy "screwing up the cards," or would you consider a blatant ploppy move to make such a player leave?
Pardon my ignorance…but, why does the skill level of the players at your table even matter to you…?
I have seen ploppies bet every hand in the shoe for the dealer and skilled high limit players give the dealer nothing
Quote: ChesterDogI find a player's hitting 12 vs 4, 5, 6, or even 2 or 3, will inspire much more anger from the other players than a player's standing on 12-16 vs 7, 8, 9, 10, or ace. No wonder that you remember the relatively rare occurence of the hit 15 demand.
I routinely get death stares when I hit 10,2 versus a dealer 4. I deal with the death stare rather then explain composition dependent strategy
Quote: SonuvabishPloppies provide good cover. I can just sit out in neutral and negative counts, and back-count, acting like I'm mad that the ploppy is screwing up the cards. And even if he goes broke, I can still refuse to join, and everyone thinks they understand why. And if I jump in to a positive count, they think it is because I got bored. And I'd much rather play with super-ploppies, than those mediocre players that think they are experts--the type that won't let the super-ploppy even sit down if they can-- who try to dictate what I should do and how the cards should run. The super-ploppies dare not get in anyone's face. I do get a bit upset when they hit stiffs in high counts against break cards, but most counters believe there is no reason to care. I care, but it's not enough to outweigh the benefits.
This first response was the best. Ploppies are a card counter's best friends. They give you all sorts of excuses to behave like a card counter without looking like one, they scare away the average-good players who might complain about your play deviations, they scare away players in general and let you play more hands, they camouflage your strange plays because they are making them too, they don't tell you how to play your hands, they are just having fun, etc. etc. etc.
Give me 2 ploppies over 4 self-titled 'experts' any day.
Quote: dwheatleyThis first response was the best. Ploppies are a card counter's best friends. They give you all sorts of excuses to behave like a card counter without looking like one, they scare away the average-good players who might complain about your play deviations, they scare away players in general and let you play more hands, they camouflage your strange plays because they are making them too, they don't tell you how to play your hands, they are just having fun, etc. etc. etc.
Give me 2 ploppies over 4 self-titled 'experts' any day.
+1. The "self-titled experts" and the whiners are the ones that get me up from the table fast. I don't want to hear it. I just want to enjoy the run of the cards.
Quote: aceofspadesPardon my ignorance…but, why does the skill level of the players at your table even matter to you…?
I have seen ploppies bet every hand in the shoe for the dealer and skilled high limit players give the dealer nothing
Like everything else, it's percentages - ploppies win less often, tips tend to come from winners. Plus at my casino, the average ploppy doesn't have a clue what he/she is doing with regard to anything, and they tend to be more likely to invest big wins in trying to hit side bets.
My observations are strictly about blackjack in this case, though - in just about every other game I deal, I can turn ploppies into skilled players because I'm actually allowed to give meaningful instruction and tell people how to maximize their chances. This is not the case in blackjack.
Quote: arcticfunI leave because of ploppies not because they "screw up the cards" but because the whining and bitching slows down the game, they think wayyyy too much about their stiff 14 or whatever, and the result is that I get dealt less than a hand a minute. So if this type of crap goes on, I leave. Unless TC is high. But when that ends, I leave anyway. It's much, much more fun (not to mention profitable) to play heads up (3-4 hands per minute?) and not have to bitch about the dealer's 7-card 21. Because secretly, I'm happy about it and press my next bet :)
This. Truth be told, I'd rather have ploppies who can just be ploppies, lose their money, and go away, or ploppies who get lucky and win a little bit than people who antagonize ploppies. It's the times when people leave because of ploppies, make some political statement about basic strategy, or flat-out threaten other players that burn me.
The worst one was the guy who tried to sell me that he was right and the other guy was an idiot after an argument that ended with one of them saying, "I'll be waiting in the parking lot." He's telling me his sob story, trying to involve me. My response? "I have a wife and a mother-in-law. I've learned it's best to stay out of things."
NO you should enjoy the fact that they play bad, or you you would not have a JOB. If people didn't play bad the house would make way less money and then make horrible rules to make up for it. Think about what Blackjack holds for the house compared to what it would be with everyone playing perfect.Quote: hwccdealer"Mad" is a strong word. "Annoyed" is a better word. It's like, if you're going to play the game, learn to play it right.
Every time a dealer makes a tip comment like you just did, It makes me want to tip dealers less and encourage others to do so.
One of my fathers (yes I have 2) has been a dealer in Vegas since probably the 70's. He is semi retired only extra board now. I asked him about his feelings regarding tipping and people playing bad. He said, none of it ever bothered him, He liked people and they liked him.
He counted part time and understood both sides of the tipping issues. His attitude was just do a good job don't expect anything and it will all work out. Even ploppies get a bad vibe from greedy resentful dealers. I will tip a dealer way more at the end, If I feel they were not sweating the tips and liked me, for me, not my tips.
Quote: AxelWolfNO you should enjoy the fact that they play bad, or you you would not have a JOB.
+1, +1Quote: AxelWolfEvery time a dealer makes a tip comment like you just did, It makes me want to tip dealers less and encourage others to do so.
Does your stepfather work at a Strip casino?Quote: AxelWolfOne of my fathers (yes I have 2) has been a dealer in Vegas since probably the 70's. He is semi retired only extra board now.
Quote: AxelWolfNO you should enjoy the fact that they play bad, or you you would not have a JOB. If people didn't play bad the house would make way less money and then make horrible rules to make up for it. Think about what Blackjack holds for the house compared to what it would be with everyone playing perfect.
Every time a dealer makes a tip comment like you just did, It makes me want to tip dealers less and encourage others to do so.
One of my fathers (yes I have 2) has been a dealer in Vegas since probably the 70's. He is semi retired only extra board now. I asked him about his feelings regarding tipping and people playing bad. He said, none of it ever bothered him, He liked people and they liked him.
He counted part time and understood both sides of the tipping issues. His attitude was just do a good job don't expect anything and it will all work out. Even ploppies get a bad vibe from greedy resentful dealers. I will tip a dealer way more at the end, If I feel they were not sweating the tips and liked me, for me, not my tips.
I dislike dealers who give me poor and unsolicited advice on how to play my hand (A3 v. 4, that's a good double!, no it isn't). Many dealers fancy themselves as superior players to most people, and a seasoned counter sitting in front of them does nothing to make them think twice. I had this dealer the other day, couldn't stop confidently handing out advice to people that was all completely wrong. Dealers who make it clear they consider me a ploppy demonstrate not only their lack of expertise at their job, but also a lack of customer service and are tipped accordingly.
I also do not like when dealers propagate the myth of the flow of the cards or screwing up the cards. Sometimes they shoot me a look when I'm the big bettor and some kid is there doing something dumb, and it doesn't mater. But other times, it's senior day and I just doubled my soft 19 against a 4 and 1st base had a stroke, and another guy had a WWII flashback. Under such circumstances, I would appreciate a so-called 'expert' explanation that all the cards are random, and no player can possibly affect any other player's probability, and that it is fallacious hindsight and selective memory that appear to make the converse true. Very rarely does a dealer even grasp that concept, let alone explain it to a table.
You can dislike ploppies because the worst ones tend to be the dumbest and most obnoxious--and sometimes may put other players in a bad mood, which may affect tips. But as an AP, I want that ploppy to split 10s on the first hand of the shoe, to see more cards. Disliking them just for bad plays makes no sense, as a dealer--as said above--you wouldn't have a job if it were only people like us.
Quote: hwccdealer... My response? "I have a wife and a mother-in-law. I've learned it's best to stay out of things."
When someone tries to engage me in a debate about my play I simply say, "talk to the bit boss." If complaints continue I ask the dealer to summon the pit boss. Sometimes the malcontent will go so far as to talk to the bit poss. In 100% of those cases the pit boss has backed up my right to play my hand however I see fit. I agree, it is best to stay out of things.
Quote: tilt247I don't think you know what a skilled player is. I'm not starting anything with you and maybe you do know, but your tips are coming from people who like to spend money they can't or sometimes can afford to spend. Sometimes these guys win, sometimes they lose, but they are there for fun (or have a huge problem) and to get comps and look like a big shot. A skilled player is not trying to stand out and give away earned units to a dealer.
Great post. Our dealer friend seems to be a nice guy but what happened to just deal the cards? I don't use the word ploppy because it can have negative connotations - sorry Frank. Not everyone cares to learn basic strategy. That does not make them stupid or bad people. Unskilled players are the ones who pay for the APs and are the ones who keep the rules from further deteriorating. For example, how fast would a casino yank surrender if everyone used it properly?
In most cases an unskilled player is better off at blackjack than other games. I've seen them run the table more than once while I lost my shirt. Be nice to your fellow players. They did not go to the casino to ruin your day.
Quote: Sonuvabish... no player can possibly affect any other player's probability ... it is fallacious hindsight and selective memory that appear to make the converse true. Very rarely does a dealer even grasp that concept ...
Well said Sonuvabish! I think it rare that a player grasps the concept, too. Present company excepted.
I'm well aware that a dumb player making stupid moves is just as likely to save the table as he is to "take the dealer's bust card."
But I'd still rather play with people who play correctly, or at the very least, consistently.
Just last month at the Bellagio we had a good table going for a while when this guy came and joined. He would rarely hit anything above a 14 and he was on my right so it felt like whenever I would double a 10 or 11 I was constantly getting the little cards that he was afraid to take on his 15s and 16s. I finally just sat out for a bit and he left after a little while. When I came back in the dealer said she would have sat out too and waited for him to lose all his money if she were in my spot.
Quote: ams288I find blackjack more entertaining when everybody actually knows what they're doing.
I'm well aware that a dumb player making stupid moves is just as likely to save the table as he is to "take the dealer's bust card."
But I'd still rather play with people who play correctly, or at the very least, consistently.
Just last month at the Bellagio we had a good table going for a while when this guy came and joined. He would rarely hit anything above a 14 and he was on my right so it felt like whenever I would double a 10 or 11 I was constantly getting the little cards that he was afraid to take on his 15s and 16s. I finally just sat out for a bit and he left after a little while. When I came back in the dealer said she would have sat out too and waited for him to lose all his money if she were in my spot.
Some players know what they're doing so well that they may look like they don't know what they're doing.
Quote: hwccdealerI'm aware that a well-versed counter probably doesn't give a damn if a ploppy splits 10s or waives off hard 15 against a face card. The cards are the cards. But would you leave over a major ploppy "screwing up the cards," or would you consider a blatant ploppy move to make such a player leave?
Hell to the no! Ploppies like this are worth their weight in gold for the cover they provide. They're a major distraction, what with arguing over other players' plays messing up the cards. You can join in on their stupidity, seem to be having a good time (but you really split tens four times because the count is sky high). Let them give you "advice" if it was something you were going to do anyway, but tends to alert the pit (standing hard 15 v dealer T) or something like that.
Let them whoop it up when they win; let them whine and moan when they don't. Distract the dealer and floor personnel from what I'm doing.
Quote: 1BBSome players know what they're doing so well that they may look like they don't know what they're doing.
It was a CSM table so I doubt that was the case here.
Quote: 1BBBe nice to your fellow players. They did not go to the casino to ruin your day.
Unless EvenBob sends the Lady in Red
Quote: 1BBSome players know what they're doing so well that they may look like they don't know what they're doing.
I am given a pretty hard time at Spanish 21. Lots of index plays drive the regulars bonkers.
He is actually my biological father. My mom was married but separated to my father in Washington that raised me and I have his name.Quote: Beethoven9th+1, +1
Does your stepfather work at a Strip casino?
My Biological father who lives here started out downtown then went to the frontier for years. He did Very well in the stock market during the boom and retired until the crash. Then he went to Bally's and then retired once again. He got board so then he went back to work off the strip, where he is on extra board however im not even sure the last time he put in a shift. He occasionally makes some AP plays for me just for fun and to hang out. He got the pleasure of being 86ed from his very first casino, because of me and a good play the other day, AWKWARD, But he was cool with it, even asked whats next. Djatc had his first 86 to.
More interesting I had no clue he AP'ed until well after I got into it. I thought he was just a dealer, I knew of and talked to him all the time when I was a kid, but I never meet him in person till I was 18, and moved to Vegas. It was not until after I told him what I was doing, that he told me about good VP/slot AP plays he had been on. He mentioned counting cards/ 4of a kind promos/ Double slot lights, etc. Until he had kids and got married.
Quote: dwheatleyI am given a pretty hard time at Spanish 21. Lots of index plays drive the regulars bonkers.
Do you play this game for fun or do you actually beat it?
Quote: AxelWolfHe is actually my biological father. My mom was married but separated to my father in Washington that raised me and I have his name.
My Biological father who lives here started out downtown then went to the frontier for years. He did Very well in the stock market during the boom and retired until the crash. Then he went to Bally's and then retired once again. He got board so then he went back to work off the strip, where he is on extra board however im not even sure the last time he put in a shift. He occasionally makes some AP plays for me just for fun and to hang out. He got the pleasure of being 86ed from his very first casino, because of me and a good play the other day, AWKWARD, But he was cool with it, even asked whats next. Djatc had his first 86 to.
More interesting I had no clue he AP'ed until well after I got into it. I thought he was just a dealer, I knew of and talked to him all the time when I was a kid, but I never meet him in person till I was 18, and moved to Vegas. It was not until after I told him what I was doing, that he told me about good VP/slot AP plays he had been on. He mentioned counting cards/ 4of a kind promos/ Double slot lights, etc. Until he had kids and got married.
It's ok they sent me $100 in freeplay so I'm unbanned, according to Bob Nersescian.
Quote: djatcIt's ok they sent me $100 in freeplay so I'm unbanned, according to Bob Nersescian.
Let me guess.....the Plaza???? :D
No, and we ant telling you. No big loss however.Quote: Beethoven9thLet me guess.....the Plaza???? :D
Let me know when you collect it, and how that works out for you. I will have bail money ready.Quote: djatcIt's ok they sent me $100 in freeplay so I'm unbanned, according to Bob Nersescian.
You are no longer a (86)virgin,(69 probably still a virgin, we will try to get that taken care of 18-20) I see many more in your future probably a beat down or two if your lucky.
I saw it coming and cashed out tickets, sent a warning to everyone and then I escaped with no 86, , security guard was so pissed, sorry DJ, Don't feel bad, you know they even tagged My GF. I doubt I will be going back anytime soon.
They really didn't like getting beat. So much anger
That is the source of the trouble. Some idiot who thinks all other players should play "properly", that is, the way he would have played. Other players are there to have fun, they may make mistakes, they may be less informed about the various strategies. Blackjack is not a team sport. Sure its nice to have some intelligent commentary from time to time. I like it when I do something that I know is "wrong" but it works out and each of the two people next to me says "congratulations".Quote: hwccdealerand A figures out that he would have hit the Pair Square for 10-1 if C had played.
>I'm aware that a well-versed counter probably doesn't give a damn if a ploppy splits 10s or waives off hard 15 against a face card
>The cards are the cards. But would you leave over a major ploppy "screwing up the cards,"
Of course not. A well-versed card counter loves such amateur action because they are providing camoflage for him.
Those who start fights are focusing on the past play, the card counter is focusing on what is left in the shoe. He sits there, behaves politely, doesn't bicker or over analyze anything as useless as the card sequences that have already been played. He focuses on the shoe and his bets.
I was once at the Hard Rock near Liquordale (Lauderdale) and a player pointed to my hand and practically screamed at me to make the book move. He had already played, he was solely concerned with helping me but I was in no mood for him and said "I'm terribly sorry but I don't speak a word of English". Its nice to have polite conversation about a player's ability and luck and courage but no one wants a drunk screaming at him about the obvious basic strategy move. If I choose not to do something so obvious, I have a reason for it.
Quote: FleaStiffIf I choose not to do something so obvious, I have a reason for it.
Pity that 99% of the people out there don't understand what that reason is........or should I say "thankfully" :)
Quote: AxelWolfLet me know when you collect it, and how that works out for you. I will have bail money ready.
You are no longer a (86)virgin,(69 probably still a virgin, we will try to get that taken care of 18-20) I see many more in your future probably a beat down or two if your lucky.
I saw it coming and cashed out tickets, sent a warning to everyone and then I escaped with no 86, , security guard was so pissed, sorry DJ, Don't feel bad, you know they even tagged My GF. I doubt I will be going back anytime soon.
They really didn't like getting beat. So much anger
I'll get a proxy. I'm too pretty to be beat up.
