Dicard Pile #2

I was just reading another thread about in Portugal, and perhaps other places, the dealer simply puts the played cards right back in to the shoe. Rather than hijack the thread, I would post my question here.

As I have shared previously, I help run a fairly large charitable gaming function for a local non-profit. We have 20 BJ tables with wagers typically $1-$10. The house takes all ties (except BJ's), pays 2:1 on a BJ and an automatic player-win on 5 cards 21 and under.

In an effort to get in more hands-per hour, a few years ago we started a process where dealers never shuffle. Rather, when a dealer burns through his/her 8-deck shoe, we simply provide the with another shoe that is fully shuffled. We then take the spent shoe to an area where the cards are reshuffled are are ready to be put back in plays shortly thereafter. This policy had increased hands-per-hour by over 30%-40%. And, with our house rules for BJ (above), increase our profits accordingly. As I have said before, time is the most precious commodity in charitable gaming.

Still, all that card shuffling and hauling dozens of shoes back and forth to/from tables is a lot of work. On a given night, we will have 3 people shuffling cards and filling the 8-deck shoe (we use the $100 6-deck auto shuffle machines). Plus, we have 2-3 people continuously hauling shoes back and forth. It's monotonous and somewhat tiring. To help the situation, we have about 100 shoes for the 20 tables. Of the 100, 20 will be in use at the tables, 30 or so will be "dirty"waiting to be shuffled and, 50 newly shuffled shoes ready to be put in play at a dealer's call. Yes, it's a bit of overkill however, a table NEVER has to wait for a new shoe.

Frankly, until today, I had never heard of a policy whereby the dealer simply put the spent cards back in to the shoe to be played over and over again without a reshuffle. My first thought was WOW, that totally eliminates the gargantuan process we engage in with the off-table shuffling/shoe replacement, etc. Hmmmm?

I was wondering how something like this might be embraced by our players? For the most part, the players don't mind the shoe replacement process as they don't like the down time either. And, when somebody complains about a shuffle not being random, we simply bury the first 3 cards and that appeases them. I am thinking that by simply putting the cards back in the shoe, the players
will gripe because they will perceive the cards to not be sufficiently random.

A few years ago, I checked in to purchasing continuous shuffling machines but they were cost prohibitive. When talking to a rep from the CSM company (Shufflemaster?) and explaining my situation, he said something to me that was quite interesting. Basically, he stated that I/we don't need a CSM. He said that when using an 8-deck shoe by simply putting the 1st card in the deck to the back of the deck and dealing to multiple players, you have a totally random deck. This is essentially what is happening in the Portugal scenario. Is that correct?

Going full circle, how do you think players would react to doing this same thing in a charitable gaming environment? It sure would eliminate a lot of work at our end with all the shoe re-shuffling, etc. and, we still get the benefit of zero down time. My fear is the players might puke. Thoughts?

As always, thanks.

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Quote: Ibeatyouraces

Its a csm.

??

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Quote: Ibeatyouraces

The One2six, or a continuous shuffle machine. Google it.

Yes, I'm familiar with these products. They were way too expensive for us. The 6 deck shufflers that we currently use cost about $100 however, they die rather quickly as a result of all the use we put them through. Probably gone through a dozen machines in the last 3 years.

on a similar note, I would love to have a couple Chipstar machines for our roulette tables.

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Are you seriously asking how you can shuffle the cards without shuffling the cards? Please don't type the words "charitable gambling" again or I'm going to vomit.

Quote: RicardoEsteban

Are you seriously asking how you can shuffle the cards without shuffling the cards? Please don't type the words "charitable gambling" again or I'm going to vomit.

I am/was only asking the question because it appears (from a similar thread) that this is a standard practice in some European casinos. Frankly, I think that our players would puke on the process event though the deck would still be random.

Considering the alternative, specifically: having volunteers fumble away at shuffling 8-deck shoes and the table being down 30-40% of the evening's time as a result, I think it is a legitimate question. In any event, considering your tone, I forgive you. :)

Quote: Riva

Frankly, until today, I had never heard of a policy whereby the dealer simply put the spent cards back in to the shoe to be played over and over again without a reshuffle. My first thought was WOW, that totally eliminates the gargantuan process we engage in with the off-table shuffling/shoe replacement, etc. Hmmmm?

The ploppies won't care, and will still find some way to lose their @55555es! However, I see something like that, and I'll take you to the cleaners. If you're gonna just put the muck back into the shoe without mixing them up, you'd best be certain all you have at your tables are ploppies. I still think you're playing with fire if you do that.

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Quote: Ibeatyouraces

Casinos do not buy these machines. They are leased.

May I know why casinos don't buy them instead?

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Thread summary:

The casinos in portugal use a CSM.

Quote: Riva

Basically, he stated that I/we don't need a CSM. He said that when using an 8-deck shoe by simply putting the 1st card in the deck to the back of the deck and dealing to multiple players, you have a totally random deck. This is essentially what is happening in the Portugal scenario. Is that correct?

Don't do this. This is a very bad idea. That is all.

Quote: dwheatley

The casinos in portugal use a CSM.



Don't do this. This is a very bad idea. That is all.

OK

Quote: dwheatley

Don't do this. This is a very bad idea. That is all.

Plan B: Please do have a blackjack game without shuffling the cards between shoes, and tell me where and when.

I cannot believe that this is seriously being considered.

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

Plan B: Please do have a blackjack game without shuffling the cards between shoes, and tell me where and when.

I cannot believe that this is seriously being considered.

Again, the only reason that this was brought up was/is because it was mentioned to be a common practice at some European casinos. I put it on the radar screen because, as I explained, we shuffle the 8-deck shoes for our dealers so the table experiences no down time whatsoever. That said, it is still a ton of work hustling shoes out to 20 tables all night long. dealers, on the other hand, love the fact that they do no have to shuffle because they're not very good at it.

I thought that this is a novel approach insofar as it would reduce our workload. At the end of the day, the players would probably gripe because they didn't see an actual shuffle. For that reason, and the fact that some of you contend that this would expose the house to unreasonable risk, it's an idea that will not see the light of day.

Quote: Riva

Again, the only reason that this was brought up was/is because it was mentioned to be a common practice at some European casinos.

It's been said 74 times in the thread and you still don't get it?

THE EUROPEAN CASINOS ARE USING CONTINUOUS SHUFFLING MACHINES

Praise be to Allah for casino managers.

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

Plan B: Please do have a blackjack game without shuffling the cards between shoes, and tell me where and when.

I cannot believe that this is seriously being considered.

If you had some way of making it such that no-one knew which deck was in use (by moving it from one table to a central point, cutting it, and then moving it to the new table later), you'd reduce some of the risk. The smart guys though would deck track some how. Much better is to shuffle.

Quote: Riva

For that reason, and the fact that some of you contend that this would expose the house to unreasonable risk, it's an idea that will not see the light of day.

"Some of us contend"? Are you serious?

Yes, some of us contend that knowing the order of the cards to come out of the shoe will give the player an advantage.

Maybe you should consider showing the players the next card before they decide if they want to hit.

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

"Some of us contend"? Are you serious?

Yes, some of us contend that knowing the order of the cards to come out of the shoe will give the player an advantage.

Maybe you should consider showing the players the next card before they decide if they want to hit.

ok, OK i misread the original post....my bad! Sheesh!