AP: Calculate EV at El Cortez
- Bet spread: 1-6
- Bankroll: $300
- $10min
- 70 hands/hr
- Count: Hi-Lo, Ill18
- Last base
I don't want to download any blackjack calculators on my computer.
I do know about Casino Vérité Blackjack Software, but don't know how to use the calculator.
I'm curious to know what the return of investment could potentially be $?/hour.
even if you keep your bets under 100? I have played there many times over the years with my GF never had a problem keeping it under 100Quote: sodawaterI calculate the EV at 0.00 since El Cortez is mega-paranoid about counters and will quickly back you off if you play as above.
I have an idea of my ROI when I play, but I truly want to know the math.
Please, just to the subject for those that actually have a blackjack calculator and know how to use it. Thanks!
Quote: AxelWolfeven if you keep your bets under 100? I have played there many times over the years with my GF never had a problem keeping it under 100
people have been backed off at El Cortez for spreading 10 to 50 dollars.
I bet guys have been backed off for less, it all depends on what you look like. Casinos can smell a Counter a mile a way. I know everyone thinks they don't look like a counter, they claim they don't stare at the cards they order a drink etc etc. Just go look at one of thees guys while they count, and the count is HIGH, even ones that have been doing it a while. They think they look the same as they do when the count is low and they just sat down, THEY DON'T. They tense up and start staring at the cards. They look like some poker player with 20 tells.Quote: sodawaterpeople have been backed off at El Cortez for spreading 10 to 50 dollars.
Most counter all have the same look, slightly nerdy, average dressed, middle aged white males. They always seem polite and organized, neatly stacked chips they always sit upright, make the perfect hand signals. This guys wont last in the EC long. Just like a young collage kid would be better off at a place like the palms.
After reading Axel's comments, I think it is easier to count than it is to cover up the fact that you are counting...that might be the real skill!!
Quote: BlackjackGambitWhat is the EV for single-deck blackjack at El Cortez?
- Bet spread: 1-6
- Bankroll: $300
- $10min
- 70 hands/hr
- Count: Hi-Lo, Ill18
- Last base
I don't want to download any blackjack calculators on my computer.
I do know about Casino Vérité Blackjack Software, but don't know how to use the calculator.
I'm curious to know what the return of investment could potentially be $?/hour.
I calculate risk of ruin at like 45%. Typical return is around 1 unit an hour. Could be close to 2 in this game. Not really relevant because you are just hoping you don't go broke.
is this a joke?
Quote: odiousgambit>Bankroll: $300
is this a joke?
It must be, cuz I'm laughing. Makes me think of those people who sit down and buy in for $5.
45%?
Can you show the calculation, please?
Quote: BlackjackGambitHaving a greater bankroll will raise high suspicion at El Cortez, especially if you play at the $25min table. You must not play there often.
Can someone remind me of the rules at the ElCo single deck game?
- H17
- 2x any first 2 cards
- split 3 or 4x
- No DAS
- No surrender
- No RSA
- $5min $500max
- $10min, $25min
- no shuffle tracking
- In shoe.
Dealer v player: 6-7 hands
4 or greater players: 2 hands
Quote: BlackjackGambitSingle Deck 3:2
- H17
- 2x any first 2 cards
- split 3 or 4x
- No DAS
- No surrender
- No RSA
- $5min $500max
- $10min, $25min
- no shuffle tracking
- In shoe.
Dealer v player: 6-7 hands
4 or greater players: 2 hands
What do you mean, in shoe?
That is a lot of hands to deal 1v1. When do you have to get there to get a 1v1 game at the $25 table?
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceWhat do you mean, in shoe?
That is a lot of hands to deal 1v1. When do you have to get there to get a 1v1 game at the $25 table?
A lot of places are making dealers use a shoe rather than hand-held to defeat hole-carding lately. (Not that you asked me.) It was a topic at G2E in the game protection seminar.
At ElCo, the dealer uses a different deck each time and places it in a shoe as if it were a 6 deck blackjack table. There is no cut card to tell the dealer to reshuffle.
Now EC heat is an interesting topic. My whole blackjack game plan is predicated on two things, one, playing short sessions and two, finding the tolerance or comfort level of each location. Now the comfort level of EC is easy....They don't want anyone to win...lol. I too have witnessed them back off players that were no more counting than jumping over the moon on multiple occasions. Short sessions is a must! And I am talking really short. Minutes not hours. The kind of session that, even for us locals is not beneficial without combining some other playable games nearby. In my own case, I now have 3 other games downtown that I consider playable, so I head downtown a couple times a week for maybe 3 hours. Each and every one of these short trips begins and ends with a short session at EC. And by years end, it adds up to a little EV.
Someone mentioned EC backs off so many players that their memory is short. That is correct. I have been backed off a few times and gone back and played a week later. Once, I returned the following day. That was just being antagonistic and it didn't work out too well. lol I also also had a problem with one particular pit guy because of my antagonistic attitude. His blood just boiled when he saw me and I liked to push his buttons. Definitely an amateurish move on my part. He went so far as to back me off in the men's room one day. lol But he is gone. Retired last spring. Oh how I miss him and ironically have not been backed off in probably 100 visits since. Maybe I did learn a little something from him about EC's tolerance levels.
EC is a good game and a fun place, but you have to learn and play by their rules. I will close by sharing a couple secrets about EC. Play DD. Single deck is hawked like nothing I have ever seen. DD is hawked too, but at least playable. And two, and I am going to be just a little vague on this one. Bet spread is the ratio between your minimum wager and top wager. Be a little creative in how you do that. :-)
Quote: BlackjackGambitOpposed to other single deck games where the dealer uses the same deck each reshuffle, using a cut card placing 50-60% pen, and the dealer actually holding the deck in his/her hand,
At ElCo, the dealer uses a different deck each time and places it in a shoe as if it were a 6 deck blackjack table. There is no cut card to tell the dealer to reshuffle.
Oh I see, thanks. I guess that prevents hole-carding. The place that I usually play deals by hand. But the rules are not as favorable as this and they deal far fewer hands.
I wonder how many hands they will deal me playing 2 hands, alone at the table. I need to try this.
Are the $25 tables usually full?
Quote: kewljPlay DD. Single deck is hawked like nothing I have ever seen. DD is hawked too, but at least playable.
Ok, what are the rules for DD? :)
Although, when the count is high, I don't always bet $60. Each >$50 bet triggers the dealer to yell "checks play", so I am very careful with timing.
In terms of funds, I am abundantly funded. Raise the bankroll in the equation then. $300 is an average "session" bankroll. They have a Bank of America a couple blocks away.
I never drop $300 on the table. It's more along the lines of putting $100, then another and another, etc. Putting your money on the table that way and pocketing winnings then using it PRN is smarter and less conspicuous.
Quote: BlackjackGambitThere is usually one DD game, 2 at most. $5 min. Same as the single deck rules except DAS is allowed. Their royal match is different on the double than the single. There is a pre-fixed cut card, players don't cut, that seems to give a 60% penetration.
Meh. There are better DD games on the strip. High-limit, but if you have the bankroll, much better.
$25 is never full. Pit boss is on full surveillance, so to speak.
Quote: BlackjackGambitFor convenience sake, I think that is what he is talking about. I agree that the best DD is M at $50 min. Only one table.
$25 is never full. Pit boss is on full surveillance, so to speak.
What are the rules like at the M?
Several MGM/Mirage owned casinos have 3:2 DD, DOA, DAS, S17, split up to 4 hands, no RSA, no surrender. The min is generally $50 or $100 (or maybe more) depending on the casino. They use a cut card (slotted discard tray, maybe 67 cards dealt before cut card). Max bets up to $10k, maybe more at some casinos or if you reserve a table.
Quote: BlackjackGambitThere is a place that is actually better than ElCo single deck, The forums never talk about it because not many are vegas locals.
Is it a secret?
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceWhat are the rules like at the M?
Several MGM/Mirage owned casinos have 3:2 DD, DOA, DAS, S17, split up to 4 hands, no RSA, no surrender. The min is generally $50 or $100 (or maybe more) depending on the casino. They use a cut card (slotted discard tray, maybe 67 cards dealt before cut card). Max bets up to $10k, maybe more at some casinos or if you reserve a table.
It's about same except you can RSA and a lower minimum. Strip is set at $100. Mandalay Bay, Luxor, Etc...
DD HE .20
vs ElCo single .19
Quote: BlackjackGambitIt's about same except you can RSA and a lower minimum. Strip is set at $100. Mandalay Bay, Luxor, Etc...
DD HE .20
vs ElCo single .19
Strip is not always $100. I've played it at the NYNY for $50. I was literally the only person in the entire high-limit room (not that it is that big).
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceStrip is not always $100. I've played it at the NYNY for $50. I was literally the only person in the entire high-limit room (not that it is that big).
Set at $100 in reference to same rules as M. To my experience, that is....
Quote: BlackjackGambitSet at $100 in reference to same rules as M. To my experience, that is....
I'm talking about a game with the rules I mentioned above. Again, it was in a low-roller casino (by MGM/Mirage standards) and the high-limit room was completely empty. So I don't know how often they lower the limits to $50. It might be a rare occurrence, or it might be common at NYNY (I am almost never there). I'd expect the limits to be higher on a busy night.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceI'm talking about a game with the rules I mentioned above. Again, it was in a low-roller casino (by MGM/Mirage standards) and the high-limit room was completely empty. So I don't know how often they lower the limits to $50. It might be a rare occurrence, or it might be common at NYNY (I am almost never there). I'd expect the limits to be higher on a busy night.
I'm sure you're correct. I am no surveyor and on occasion, I play high-limit. For the Vegas AP as part-time, most avoid the strip because it is simply, the strip. haha.
Quote: BlackjackGambitI'm sure you're correct. I am no surveyor and on occasion, I play high-limit. For the Vegas AP as part-time, most avoid the strip because it is simply, the strip. haha.
I dunno, I like the strip. The scenery is pretty good, especially on Friday and Saturday nights.
I think we discussed this before. It was a kind of place that you might never think to look for a good blackjack game...Quote: BlackjackGambitThere is a place that is actually better than ElCo single deck, The forums never talk about it because not many are vegas locals.
My notes don't show a DA single deck 3-2 game in Las Vegas. I heard there is one near Boulder City but have never been there.
Quote: BlackjackGambitHaving a greater bankroll will raise high suspicion at El Cortez, especially if you play at the $25min table.
45%?
Can you show the calculation, please?
http://www.bjstrat.net/ror.html
Doubling your money is standard. I gave you an average bet of $30 or 10 units with 10 units profit with an advantage of 1%.
You may be tempted to say you have 30 units. This is wrong for the calculation.
If your edge goes up to 1.5%, your ROR drops to 29%...still way to high.
I play with an ROR of less than half of !%.
Quote: PokeraddictPeople are saying EC SDBJ is double anything. I believe it is D1011 only. Can someone confirm? That is what I have in my notes and show that it changed at some point in 2012. If I am correct, that game is really no better than a good shoe game.
My notes don't show a DA single deck 3-2 game in Las Vegas. I heard there is one near Boulder City but have never been there.
Can someone who plays there regularly (possibly kewlj?) confirm or deny this?
Also, playing alone at a table, but playing 2 hands... how many rounds could I expect before a shuffle?
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceI'm talking about a game with the rules I mentioned above. Again, it was in a low-roller casino (by MGM/Mirage standards) and the high-limit room was completely empty. So I don't know how often they lower the limits to $50. It might be a rare occurrence, or it might be common at NYNY (I am almost never there). I'd expect the limits to be higher on a busy night.
I played the DD at NYNY about few months ago. When I jumped from a quarter to 150, the dealer yelled "check play" and their pit bosses started paying attention. After few minutes, the pit boss picked up the phone. Then, I cashed out immediately. It seems that NYNY has very low tolerance to counters too.
Quote: PokeraddictPeople are saying EC SDBJ is double anything. I believe it is D1011 only. Can someone confirm? That is what I have in my notes and show that it changed at some point in 2012. If I am correct, that game is really no better than a good shoe game.
My notes don't show a DA single deck 3-2 game in Las Vegas. I heard there is one near Boulder City but have never been there.
El Cortez has always had double on any first two cards and that was the case when I was there in October.
I believe you are referring to the Hacienda over by the dam. On the times that I went there the dealer shuffled after every hand, even with only two players at the table. I don't know if I just hit it at the wrong time but no thanks.
Quote: KickassI played the DD at NYNY about few months ago. When I jumped from a quarter to 150, the dealer yelled "check play" and their pit bosses started paying attention. After few minutes, the pit boss picked up the phone. Then, I cashed out immediately. It seems that NYNY has very low tolerance to counters too.
You jumped your bet 6x in one hand? Yeah, hard to believe that they noticed that subtle move.
Also, the term is "checks play".
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceYou jumped your bet 6x in one hand? Yeah, hard to believe that they noticed that subtle move.
Also, the term is "checks play".
There are still many places tolerate this "subtle move" for green chippers.
Quote: KickassI played the DD at NYNY about few months ago. When I jumped from a quarter to 150, the dealer yelled "check play" and their pit bosses started paying attention. After few minutes, the pit boss picked up the phone. Then, I cashed out immediately. It seems that NYNY has very low tolerance to counters too.
All casinos watch double deck games. Were you playing rated and how long had you been playing?
Quote: KickassThere are still many places tolerate this "subtle move" for green chippers.
Really? That is crazy. I would never try this. It's also pretty unnecessary.
If you just spread to 2 hands, they will require you to put a double minimum bet out there. So when you go from 1x25 to 2x50 you are still "betting the minimum" (you can put to 2x25 out there, and then they will tell you that you bet 2x50, put the extra chips out there. On the next hand if the count is still good you can easily go to 2x75 or even 2x100 without attracting much attention.
This works with blacks, too (at a $100 min table). 1x100 --> 2x200 --> 2x300 is usually no problem at all.
Quote: 1BBAll casinos watch double deck games. Were you playing rated and how long had you been playing?
Unrated and about 15 minutes. I know all casinos watch double deck games closely but some of them have better tolerance. I have been playing/counting 6 decks and DD for 3 years already.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceReally? That is crazy. I would never try this. It's also pretty unnecessary.
If you just spread to 2 hands, they will require you to put a double minimum bet out there. So when you go from 1x25 to 2x50 you are still "betting the minimum" (you can put to 2x25 out there, and then they will tell you that you bet 2x50, put the extra chips out there. On the next hand if the count is still good you can easily go to 2x75 or even 2x100 without attracting much attention.
This works with blacks, too (at a $100 min table). 1x100 --> 2x200 --> 2x300 is usually no problem at all.
I know playing two hands is better. But not all casinos allow spreading two hands in the mid-decks. It is also my habit that if the whole table win the previous hand, then I will not spread to 2 hands because that will create unnecessary conversation with the superstitious gamblers. I forgot why I did it that way. Again, I am just a green chipper and I am far away from being a professional.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceCan someone who plays there regularly (possibly kewlj?) confirm or deny this?
Also, playing alone at a table, but playing 2 hands... how many rounds could I expect before a shuffle?
Pokeraddict is incorrect regarding El Cortez. I live in Las Vegas. Please read the previous replies on this thread for the rules.
Hacienda does not have single deck.
