Casino caught taking cards out of the deck...what to do?
From the machine. Unscrews it and puts the new machine in place upon turning the machine on it opened up and there were 7cards in it. Cards that were missing out of the deck I had just played with for 6 hours. I requested a count just to make sure and it was true. A K Q J 10 8 2 All different suits. So I freaked out asking how its possible that those cards got back there especially while I was just playing with a deck that had been missing those cards all night. They called over 10 pit bosses no one acknowledged me just chit chat amongst themselves. After about 30 minutes one came to me and said we have to do an investigation and we will give you a call to compensate you for this. I said we'll I'm going to go get the other 10 players that had been playing at this table and lost and inform them. They pleaded with me not to say anything and let them try and fix the mistake first. Reluctantly I agreed. A month went by of me calling a few times a week to get no return calls just message after message Upon going back to the casino during all this I was informed by pit bosses and gaming managers they were still under investigation and I will be hearing something shortly. Called my casino host to get my stats for that night. $350 average bet 10 1/2 hours of play (6 of those hours were against the stacked deck). And I earned 525 player club points Well they finally called me last night and offered me a $400 slot play. To me that is a slap in the face. I play in this establishment 4 days a week about 30 hours per week. With an avg bet of 150-300. I have been in the top tier of the their players club for 4 straight years What do you think is proper compensation for this based on my play and what should my next step be. I was told by friends find those players from that night( which are all regulars it won't be hard to reach them). Call the news and newspaper. Call a
Lawyer. And call the gaming authority for the state. I'm at a loss
Quote: Pizzaman1234I was recently playing at an Indian casino. 8 decks and 2 sets of cards one being shuffled in a machine while the other is in play. Upon arriving on this particular day I was told the machine was broken so they would just use one deck and hand shuffle after each session. That was fine with me well after 6 hours of playing with those cards a new pit boss came over and tried fixing the machine. I told him it hasn't been working all day so he just picked up the phone and ordered a new one from the back room. 10 minutes go by and a security guard walks from the back with a new machine The dealer opens the current machine to take out the cards that were not in play at all just to remove them
From the machine. Unscrews it and puts the new machine in place upon turning the machine on it opened up and there were 7cards in it. Cards that were missing out of the deck I had just played with for 6 hours. I requested a count just to make sure and it was true. A K Q J 10 8 2 All different suits. So I freaked out asking how its possible that those cards got back there especially while I was just playing with a deck that had been missing those cards all night. They called over 10 pit bosses no one acknowledged me just chit chat amongst themselves. After about 30 minutes one came to me and said we have to do an investigation and we will give you a call to compensate you for this. I said we'll I'm going to go get the other 10 players that had been playing at this table and lost and inform them. They pleaded with me not to say anything and let them try and fix the mistake first. Reluctantly I agreed. A month went by of me calling a few times a week to get no return calls just message after message Upon going back to the casino during all this I was informed by pit bosses and gaming managers they were still under investigation and I will be hearing something shortly. Called my casino host to get my stats for that night. $350 average bet 10 1/2 hours of play (6 of those hours were against the stacked deck). And I earned 525 player club points Well they finally called me last night and offered me a $400 slot play. To me that is a slap in the face. I play in this establishment 4 days a week about 30 hours per week. With an avg bet of 150-300. I have been in the top tier of the their players club for 4 straight years What do you think is proper compensation for this based on my play and what should my next step be. I was told by friends find those players from that night( which are all regulars it won't be hard to reach them). Call the news and newspaper. Call a
Lawyer. And call the gaming authority for the state. I'm at a loss
well first off I am going to call BS.
If there were 8 decks being shuffled by a machine and then they decided to use just 1 deck they would have had to pull the cards out and make sure there were 52 cards. How would they go from 8 to 1 decks without doing this? Also, shufflers break all of the time and when they do they just hand shuffle the entire 8 decks so its no big deal.
ok, so now lets assume this story is true. If it is true, you were playing at an indian casino so they have their own rules and they have their own "gaming commission". I would just not go back unless this is the only place to play. If it is the only place to play then you are even more screwed. You can call a lawyer or a newspaper but what do you think will really happen?
Quote: Pizzaman1234I was recently playing at an Indian casino. 8 decks and 2 sets of cards one being shuffled in a machine while the other is in play. Upon arriving on this particular day I was told the machine was broken so they would just use one deck and hand shuffle after each session. That was fine with me well after 6 hours of playing with those cards a new pit boss came over and tried fixing the machine. I told him it hasn't been working all day so he just picked up the phone and ordered a new one from the back room. 10 minutes go by and a security guard walks from the back with a new machine The dealer opens the current machine to take out the cards that were not in play at all just to remove them
From the machine. Unscrews it and puts the new machine in place upon turning the machine on it opened up and there were 7cards in it. Cards that were missing out of the deck I had just played with for 6 hours. I requested a count just to make sure and it was true. A K Q J 10 8 2 All different suits. So I freaked out asking how its possible that those cards got back there especially while I was just playing with a deck that had been missing those cards all night. They called over 10 pit bosses no one acknowledged me just chit chat amongst themselves. After about 30 minutes one came to me and said we have to do an investigation and we will give you a call to compensate you for this. I said we'll I'm going to go get the other 10 players that had been playing at this table and lost and inform them. They pleaded with me not to say anything and let them try and fix the mistake first. Reluctantly I agreed. A month went by of me calling a few times a week to get no return calls just message after message Upon going back to the casino during all this I was informed by pit bosses and gaming managers they were still under investigation and I will be hearing something shortly. Called my casino host to get my stats for that night. $350 average bet 10 1/2 hours of play (6 of those hours were against the stacked deck). And I earned 525 player club points Well they finally called me last night and offered me a $400 slot play. To me that is a slap in the face. I play in this establishment 4 days a week about 30 hours per week. With an avg bet of 150-300. I have been in the top tier of the their players club for 4 straight years What do you think is proper compensation for this based on my play and what should my next step be. I was told by friends find those players from that night( which are all regulars it won't be hard to reach them). Call the news and newspaper. Call a
Lawyer. And call the gaming authority for the state. I'm at a loss
Two words, my friend. Sovereign Nation. You're lucky they don't pull your points as I'm sure they've already labeled you a troublemaker. You are fighting a very uphill battle and these guys don't play fair.
Care to name the casino that has 10 pit bosses at the ready? Northeast?
Quote: Pizzaman1234Yes northeast area
Be very careful.
Offering you any compensation is a very good thing. It supports any claim you may have that they were in the wrong.
But I agree that the compensation offered was an insult.
At the very minimum, they should have offered the amount of your average bet, times the number of hours this was going on. And it should have been either cash or use them until you lose them chips.
Free slot play? Are they kidding? Are you even a slot player???
Quote: Pizzaman1234and what should my next step be.
Play Craps instead.
Indian casinos are self regulated. They can pull as many tens and aces from a shoe as they please.
Even the New York State casinos are unregulated.
There are no laws requiring their decks to be complete, or their shuffles to be random.
Play at your own risk.
Told them to shove it. That's 2 hands. I played for hours and hours on those cards $600 is not even close
It's smarter to get something rather than nothing. It's not like you're obligated to keep playing there once you take it. It's possible these few cards might not have even made much of a difference with all the decks and doesn't seem like it was intentional based on your own account.Quote: Pizzaman1234After turning down the slot play they called me back today and offered $600
Told them to shove it. That's 2 hands. I played for hours and hours on those cards $600 is not even close
I would ask for a check and not cash it, then do the media stuff.Quote: AlanMendelsonForget all this Sovereign Nation talk. Call the Attorney General's office which regulates the casinos. Get a lawyer. Have a news conference and get the media there.
What would be considered black mail? How can you ask for more money, using the media as a threat without it being blatant blackmail?
Quote: TankoPlay Craps instead.
Indian casinos are self regulated. They can pull as many tens and aces from a shoe as they please.
Even the New York State casinos are unregulated.
There are no laws requiring their decks to be complete, or their shuffles to be random.
Play at your own risk.
I've seen numerous vp advantage players scream foul at statements like these. They like to think everything at Tribal Casinos is regulated the same as Nevada casinos because they play at them.
Pizza, forget about the ordeal. File it under experience. You're a gambler and you were at the wrong place at the wrong time. Too bad so sad.
Quote: Pizzaman1234After turning down the slot play they called me back today and offered $600
Told them to shove it. That's 2 hands. I played for hours and hours on those cards $600 is not even close
The cards omitted are worth +8 (Zen) so you were roughly starting the 8 decks at a true count of -1.
I'm not an authority on this but let's assume that this equates to an additional 0.5% house edge.
$350 average bet at 100 hands per hour means that they were taking an extra $175 off you for each hour.
Times that by 6 and you get $1,050 which, in my opinion, would be a fair offer.
You could always go back and negotiate, they can always say 'no' if you ask for $1,200 say.
What would the offer be if 7 fives or sixes were taken from the deck?
$600 is fair.
Quote: boymimboThe key to getting what you want is to tell them what you want. In this case, missing 7 cards from a 416 card deck meant at best 0.5% and probably less. As Switch mentioned the most you are likely out is about $1,050.
What would the offer be if 7 fives or sixes were taken from the deck?
$600 is fair.
I agree. If you don't take the $600 you will likely end up with nothing. The real question only you can answer is this.... if you fight for more, and lose the ability or right to play at that casino, how negatively will that impact you?
Consider the money lost as part of the cost of playing there, with the apparent convenience and other factors luring you. Or transfer to a more accommodating venue and geographic area.Quote: SOOPOOif you fight for more, and lose the ability or right to play at that casino, how negatively will that impact you?
Quote: boymimboThe key to getting what you want is to tell them what you want. In this case, missing 7 cards from a 416 card deck meant at best 0.5% and probably less. As Switch mentioned the most you are likely out is about $1,050.
What would the offer be if 7 fives or sixes were taken from the deck?
$600 is fair.
$600 is not fair. Why should he only get back slightly over half of what was stolen from him? If I stole $1000 from you and then offered to give you back $600 of it, which I then required you to gamble at a -EV game, would you call that fair?
Fair would be $1050 in cash (not freeplay). I'd take $1200 in "use til you lose" promo chips, or $2400 in "one time use only" chips.
If seven 5s or 6s were taken out of the deck I'd thank them and ask them do to it again :)
Quote: IbeatyouracesI've said this for a few years now... DO NOT GAMBLE IN AN INDIAN CASINO! .
And I've been saying for a few years... THAT'S ALL WE HAVE HERE!
The correct course of action would be to void ALL of your play for the length of time and have you leave with the chips you came with when the error came about. The casino is playing with an illegal deck and all play should be void, win or lose.
I would also make sure you get credit for the 6 hours played at 30% of theoretical loss, and an apology, and some free comps to boot.
But to ask the casino to give you what you want based on the theoretical value of those cards is difficult to calculate and difficult for them to justify.
Quote: boymimboOut of curiousity, what would you have demanded if you knew that there were cards missing but you didn't know what they were? Would you ask the casino to base your comp assuming they were all 10s?
I second Boymimbo. If I understand correctly there could have just as easily been an error in your favor. I wouldn't expect you to return any money won, real or theoretical, if it had been in your favor.
Quote: socksI second Boymimbo. If I understand correctly there could have just as easily been an error in your favor. I wouldn't expect you to return any money won, real or theoretical, if it had been in your favor.
That's not really relevent. It's the casino's responsibility to provide a fair game. Intentional or not, random or not, it't their responsibility to make it right.
responsibility.
Get people to join your cause, our whole nation needs a push to better regulate Indian casinos. When are the players going to work together on this?
Remember the boycott 6/5 BJ movement ?
Quote: Buzzard" When are the players going to work together on this? " NEVER
Remember the boycott 6/5 BJ movement ?
It's sad. I feel that the right people with the right backing could do some good in the Indian gaming department when it comes to equal fairness in all gambling sites.
Quote: socksI second Boymimbo. If I understand correctly there could have just as easily been an error in your favor. I wouldn't expect you to return any money won, real or theoretical, if it had been in your favor.
That's a good argument for why the casino should not be jumping at the chance to offer his money back to him, and it is a reasonable argument. However, the casino is obligated to provide the game as advertised. Taking cards out of the deck that give the casino a hefty advantage over a prolonged period of time is a serious violation of the law. Regardless of tribal immunity, they are in violation of federal gaming laws and state compacts. Accidents do occur, everyone understands that. But failure to voluntarily rectify the situation after a persistent customer demands it could result in serious consequences.
Quote: BizzyBThis is probably an accident. Proper compensation would be refunding the increase in expected losses for playing with a stacked deck or completely voiding your play. If you did not lose, take the slot play. If you did lose, and they refuse to refund you, set up a face to face meeting with the casino manager. Tell him how they convinced you not to tell any of the other players. You know what cards were missing. Calculate the EORs and their impact on the house edge, and how this impacted you when you played. Give them the date and time of the incident; it's on tape, they will have to destroy it to deny it. Go in there with data. Tell them you are aware of tribal immunity, and plan to sue each one of them personally by name, in addition to making a formal complaint to the gaming commission with a lawyer. Threaten their jobs, have the threat of fines loom over them. Don't whine. Talk to a lawyer beforehand so you can give the manager his name and info. I'd also mention the constant run-around. And insist on an answer before you leave.
Recording conversations would be silly. The people you want to talk to are not idiots. And even the idiots are not going to say anything stupid to a customer in a professional setting. They aren't your ex-girifriend confessing to breaking your stuff in a past civil dispute, they are strangers in suits. Going to the media is also silly. Some crazy guy calling up a news stations claiming the casino took Aces out of the deck, that's why he lost. Happens every day. You never hear it on the news because it is not newsworthy. You need to show youre serious before the media would cover it, and the casino would likely never let itself get in such a position for such bad publicity. And posting online? Who would care. For $1,000 you can trash me all you want online, crazyguy8402.
It's my impression that the casino probably calculated their increased edge in the cards missing, and $500 in slot play more than covers it. So I would ask them for half my losses in cash, or $500, whichever is greater, and take it. Them calling to offer more indicates they want this matter resolved. They are not going to offer you a million dollars, and they have no idea if you are in the 50% of people at the casino hoping to magically strike it rich; at some point they will chalk you up as unreasonable. You go in there with data and a realistic request, then they know that you know what you are talking about and are level-headed. They also probably do not want to deal with the your next course of action. You could ask for a 100% refund in cash by demanding your play be void, but I think that has less chance of success. I certainly think you should do something tho, I certainly would not tolerate it.
The attorney general's office of every state has regulatory authority over all Indian casinos. All Indian casinos operate under a Compact with their states which is their license to operate.
As an example look at Section 7 of the California compact with the Morongo Indians. http://www.cgcc.ca.gov/documents/compacts/original_compacts/Morongo_Compact.pdf
All of the states' compacts follow these same rules.
If there is a dispute -- contact the Attorney General's office in your state.
Quote: AlanMendelsonI just want to make one very important point: Indian casinos are not immune from various forms of legal action, including the licensing by the states that they are located in.
The attorney general's office of every state has regulatory authority over all Indian casinos. All Indian casinos operate under a Compact with their states which is their license to operate.
As an example look at Section 7 of the California compact with the Morongo Indians. http://www.cgcc.ca.gov/documents/compacts/original_compacts/Morongo_Compact.pdf
All of the states' compacts follow these same rules.
If there is a dispute -- contact the Attorney General's office in your state.
Doesn't help him much. An individual cannot sue a tribal casino for monetary damages, they enjoy limited 11th Amendment privileges. All he can do is complain to authorities who will not be concerned about his losses. He should keep it in mind as an option, but definitely not the first thing he should be thinking about. He can sue the employees for prospective relief. Realistically, he would have every right to sue each pit boss involved for a clear violation of federal law, and could win a non-monetary case in which he demonstrated they did in fact remove cards, and could ask for a requirement that they display all cards before every shoe. Such a decision would cripple the casino. If they had any fear that this could possibly happen, they'd give him his token losses. I'm not in any way suggesting a certainty that this would meet success. But I am certain the pit bosses are not immune from suit, as individuals separate from the casino.
Quote: RorryGo to the local media. Go to the state media. Get professionals to back up the math that you were cheated, record conversations with them. Try to bury them. Posting their name and the details on every online gambling forum you can find will help too.
Get people to join your cause, our whole nation needs a push to better regulate Indian casinos. When are the players going to work together on this?
uhh, yeah that seems reasonable. the whole nation up in arms over a gambling error. in a perfect world, where money wasn't an issue, but a lawyer cost is probably more than you are going to receive. most tribal casinos have a "compact" with the state to run a casino inside their borders. you should have recourse with the New York Gaming commission. i think you should receive some compensation, and the $1200 number seems fair and i would take anything near $1000.
best response I've read, very nice BB. very well said!Quote: BizzyB
If any of you read that compact I linked to (they're all boiler plate) the casino had ten days to resolve the dispute.
I didn't follow the whole discussion: did the player say the dispute was resolved? If not, he should be on the phone to the AG with a letter already in the mail.
EVERY Indian casino has a compact with the state in which they're located. They are NOT above the law... sovereign nation or no. And those compacts don't run forever.
I haven't even laid out the impact of the media yet. But do you think any casino would appreciate media coverage that cards were missing from the deck AND the Attorney General was investigating? That's Excedrin headache number 1-million (as in dollars of bad PR).
Quote: bdc42best response I've read, very nice BB. very well said!
thank you
Quote: AlanMendelsonI didn't think the real issue here was whether or not this player could collect damages. I thought the real issue here was calling this casino out for what they did, having the Attorney General of that state read them the riot act, and have them settle the dispute.
If any of you read that compact I linked to (they're all boiler plate) the casino had ten days to resolve the dispute.
I didn't follow the whole discussion: did the player say the dispute was resolved? If not, he should be on the phone to the AG with a letter already in the mail.
EVERY Indian casino has a compact with the state in which they're located. They are NOT above the law... sovereign nation or no. And those compacts don't run forever.
I haven't even laid out the impact of the media yet. But do you think any casino would appreciate media coverage that cards were missing from the deck AND the Attorney General was investigating? That's Excedrin headache number 1-million (as in dollars of bad PR).
You seem to think that everytime something in life isn't perfect, you can call the news and they will immediately put it on TV to vindicate you. They don't care. A pizza delivery guy tried to short change me a dollar out of a $100 one time, as an extra tip. I didn't catch it until he was gone. He most likely intended to steal $1. This is the crime of larceny. Should I call the news? The Attorney General? Will it put dominos out of business? No, they won't care. The casino did not try and steal any money, it was an error...that appears to be the case because of the relatively small amount of money involved and how easily it was to discover there was a problem. The OP has not made serious efforts at resolving the issue. And you think the state is going to revoke their ability to do gaming, cutting funding to thousands of people on the reservation that depend on funds for homes, education, food, etc.? You think the news will cover a story that could damage the livelihood of thousands, solely on the word of a guy that is mad about losing at a casino? You're not an expert just because you heard of a compact. The things you suggest are ridiculous. "The casino had 10 days to resolve the dispute." They have to be formally aware there is a dispute before there is a dispute, it doesn't begin because someone is unhappy. There might not even be a dispute under the law. In addition, they tried to resolve it. They are not required to resolve it by meeting any demand an aggrieved party demands. If they were, then all disputes would be unresolved and the casino would always break the law by not handing out a billion dollars within 10 days.
If the OP wants the government involved, and news coverage, both of which are unlikely, he needs to take the proper steps, and the casino must continue to act outrageously. Not magically wish or expect these things to happen. If he writes a letter to anyone, it should be written by a lawyer--unless he can manage to cite specific legal provisions and detail his actions and the casino's noncompliance. Otherwise, it will be ignored. Your advice is terrible.
Quote: onenickelmiracleThis guy never came back so probably used this thread as leverage or he got scared he would lose the ability to gamble close to home and took something without updating. Practical purposes matter the most as far as I'm concerned and settling for a loss is ok because it saves time getting it over with.
It looks like he signed up just to ask that question. Prob didn't get any useful info, and prob doesn't use forums. I imagine he'll check back. I don't know why you would bet $350/hand without counting cards or being rich (if you were rich, you wouldn't care, and they would refund you in an instant cuz they want your business). I'm a bit skeptical about this whole thing. Where I come from, a big bettor like that is ALWAYS a degenerate that has a list of insane excuses for why he has lost $4000 in 4 hours. I remember one in particular. I was by far the best player in the building, counting hour after hour. This guy comes in with a bad attitude. Tells people who walk up how poor of a player I am, and whoever else is sittng there. Then he proceeds to split 10s. He walks away from the table without watching the result, which is a loss, then accuses the casino of stealing and demanding to have the cards backed up.
Quote: 1BBFace, are you there?
I'm here. I haven't heard a peep about this.
Granted, I've been off many days due to holidays and weather, and I don't pay much attention to what happens up north, but I'm thinking I would've heard something if this happened at my place.
