Couning Cards, a joke in this Era

Hi Guys,
I am new to this forum and had been playing "Pontoon" or Spanish 21 for years. lately, I have been travelling to some overseas casino where they only have Blackjacks. Been in there a few rounds and lost some serious money. Coming back, I check most Gurus and Professors and found that they advocate Card Counting. To me and in this era, where all or almost all Asians casinos are using CSMs, Continious Shuffling Machines, the used cards are placed back into the machines for immediate shuffling. In addition, the cards within these machines are continiously shuffled. So, where in the name of a "Professional" can you count the hi-lo and "rich" cards??? The counters are a joking lot and need their motives and advices checked and re-check. Please tell me I am wrong....

I'm not sure that I understand what you're asking. It's certainly true that CSM machines make counting virtually pointless. But those machines aren't used everywhere, and in the places where they aren't used it's still very beneficial to count cards.

Thanks, Maurice for your comment. I wasn't asking anything...simply making my point....there is as you mentioned 'virtually pointless" in counting cards, playing on a table with CSM sortings. If there is anyone who can say they were successful in counting cards on CSM deliveries, then I will eat my hat, and shoes too.
Wouldn't know any International Standard Casinos not using CSM nowadays. Anyway, have not seen a "shoebox" for cards for the past 10-12 years. Maybe, that's the reason why, we asians are dying on the tables.

Quote: Casinoraider

Thanks, Maurice for your comment.

Maurice?

Ok, something weird is going on around here lately.

Quote: Casinoraider

Maybe, that's the reason why, we asians are dying on the tables.

You should probably take this up with EvenBob, he's sort of our resident expert on Asian casino patrons. His insight is uncanny.

Sorry, not Maurice..I meant rdw4potus...that better?

And whom may EvenBob be and be found, reach, contacted?

Asian tables, I specifically mean Macau Casinos. Have check the House Edge from Net and they are pretty low in Macau as compare to LV.
There is no way anyone can count cards on CSM table..Basic S is still in play.. but wagering with Hi-Lo? Card Counting?..that's BS..bullshits.

Like some Jokers to comment..thanks

Quote: Casinoraider

And whom may EvenBob be and be found, reach, contacted?

He's a little difficult to avoid, which is sort of like saying he'll find you.

Quote: Casinoraider

Like some Jokers to comment..thanks

Be careful what you ask for, you just may get it.

"You think I'm joking" - EvenBob

Quote: Casinoraider

"You think I'm joking" - EvenBob

Perhaps the best place to start would be https://wizardofvegas.com/member/evenbob/ where you could begin to peruse the nearly 11,000 posts he has made. Bear in mind the signal to noise ratio is pretty low. But he really shines when he discusses "Asians" and baccarat.

Thanks..but I think we are at the wrong tables...I am only interested in Blackjacks here (not Baccarat)....card counting?? blashemy

Quote: Casinoraider

Thanks..but I think we are at the wrong tables...I am only interested in Blackjacks here (not Baccarat)....card counting?? blashemy

Perhaps you misunderstood. Bob knows more about any given subject than there is to actually know, he's that smart. I just gave the "Asian" & bacc as an example. You will want to ease him into the discussion though, because like many geniuses he can easily find rudimentary grunts and babbling not worth his effort.

Thanks again. As said, how may I ease bob into this topic and give his opinions and views? I have read some of his postings...some are intellectual and some are brush-offs. Overall, I would like to hear his view on counting with CSM. It's all over the world and soon, all BJ will be played this way. I do not know, perhaps some casinos in States are still on shoeboxes...what a delightful opportunity...

I am sure the are Billions others who would be interested in what Bob has to say. Even some Jokers on effectiveness of counting from CSM deliveries.
Please feel free to leave a comment or an opinion. I am dying to know.

casinoraider, you lost money because you most likely make several playing decisions that deviate from basic strategy. Also, there's luck.

It's not because of card counting, or continuous shuffling machines. There will never come a time when blackjack is no longer played from shoes. There are not billions of people interested in what Bob has to say. The topic has been discussed as to whether or not you can count at a CSM table, but counters generally understand that counting at these tables is pointless.

88s, Sad but true..I made some decisions which was off BS. Luck plays a big part in all card games and gambling.

Having said that, 88s, you mean to conclude that you are still able to count cards on CSM tables and have a better advantage at BJ under such circumstances??? Because with the counting, BJ more than often favours the player.

I raised this topic to argue the point that CSM tables are no longer card countable as in shoeboxes. Got that? Anyone who says they can still count from CSM, please stand up.

And 8s, I wonder how many casino in the world have you tried and seen the shoeboxes still in use for BJ? I mean in Asia and Europe? Not saying in States as obliviously, you are adamant that shoeboxes are here to stay for all eternity. For you information, there is not a single BJ table in any Asian casino that plays from shoes.

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Quote: Casinoraider

I wonder how many casino in the world have you tried and seen the shoeboxes still in use for BJ? I mean in Asia and Europe? Not saying in States as obliviously, you are adamant that shoeboxes are here to stay for all eternity. For you information, there is not a single BJ table in any Asian casino that plays from shoes.

I played a shoe game in Seoul about 1 year ago. It was hit on soft 17, but otherwise the rules were good. Weird thing though, when new decks were introduced they were fanned out face down. I don't know what that was supposed to prove.

Quote: Casinoraider

CSM. It's all over the world and soon, all BJ will be played this way.

Focus on understanding why this statement is false, and you'll be much wiser than you currently are.

In my city (Rosario, Argentina) the casino uses CSM, but they fail everyday and then they are forced to use shoes, so you always can find a table without CSM.

Quote: JimRockford

I played a shoe game in Seoul about 1 year ago. It was hit on soft 17, but otherwise the rules were good. Weird thing though, when new decks were introduced they were fanned out face down. I don't know what that was supposed to prove.

Are you saying this was a "legal" casino? I wasn't aware they had casino's in Seoul. Thanks.

Quote: Casinoraider

For you information, there is not a single BJ table in any Asian casino that plays from shoes.

Does this include the Republic of the Philippines? My understanding is that in Angeles City they use a shoe but my information is second hand. I know nothing about the rules etc. but suffice to say, not a good idea to play big there, and win, as would be looked upon as stealing.

Quote: Casinoraider

I raised this topic to argue the point that CSM tables are no longer card countable as in shoeboxes. Got that? Anyone who says they can still count from CSM, please stand up.

I stand up for this. CSM BJ is definitely countable. I personally do it for several years, and still doing it, am making very steady profit which also inline with simulation.

Do you believe in maths? If yes I don't know why you deter your decision from BS sometimes.

Why are you so desperate to argue the countability of CSM?

Quote: mckanata

I stand up for this. CSM BJ is definitely countable. I personally do it for several years, and still doing it, am making very steady profit which also inline with simulation.

Do you believe in maths? If yes I don't know why you deter your decision from BS sometimes.

Why are you so desperate to argue the countability of CSM?

Noted you just Signed Up today for purpose of this bickering, maybe too embarassed to use your usual pyseudom.

Can someone please explain to him the meaning of a CSM. Maybe, he hasn't seen one before. The working and mechanics of a Continious Shuffling Machine, the inside of this thing. He claims, he can count the hi-low cards coming out from CSM.

No, I am not desperate to argue, just like the rest, hoping to make a few more bucks from BJ.

Quote: NokTang

Are you saying this was a "legal" casino? I wasn't aware they had casino's in Seoul. Thanks.

Ref casinos in Seoul:

7luck Millennium is across from Seoul Station
7luck COEX is in Gangnam (Gangnam style :))
Walker Hill is in Gwangjin-gu (Eastt side of Seoul)

All 3 are about a 35 minute taxi ride or shuttle between each other (depending on traffic, of course)

There's also Paradise Casino at Incheon, next to the airport, and casinos at Busan and also on Jeju island. (Jeju has been holding large buy-in poker tourneys)

Quote: Casinoraider

Noted you just Signed Up today for purpose of this bickering, maybe too embarassed to use your usual pyseudom.

Can someone please explain to him the meaning of a CSM. Maybe, he hasn't seen one before. The working and mechanics of a Continious Shuffling Machine, the inside of this thing. He claims, he can count the hi-low cards coming out from CSM.

No, I am not desperate to argue, just like the rest, hoping to make a few more bucks from BJ.

I'm a newly sign up doesn't mean I am inexperienced in this topic. I'm a newly sign up doesn't mean I do not know what is CSM. Using this kind of attitude to tease people in this forum makes yourself shameful, but it's your choice.

This is my first message in Wizard forum does not mean I was for the purpose of bickering. Which part of my previous reply bicker with you? You mean the fact that CSM BJ is countable equals to bickering? I am speechless then.

The truth is, If you think you know CSM better than me, you should have already known how to use this knowledge to increase your EV. Otherwise, I am sorry to say that you are just not better than me in converting knowledge into usage.

That said, I may agree with you that you were not in purpose to argue the countability of CSM. I can feel that you try to be offensive, to make us angry, and hope we will leak out some secret to bicker with you, at the end will become giving you a big hand to beat a CSM BJ!

We have a team investigated different models of CSMs, such as One-Two-Six. We've read through every details about these machines. We've observed the actual mechanics and operations of these machines for several hundreds times. We've found out something valuable that the patent paper did not cover......

If you are asking in a better manner, I may share more details with you that can help you beating CSM BJ. But your attitude disappointed me. So I will leave it here. Mind your words next time, poor kid.

Last but not least, you can't see how CSM generates EV does not mean everyone in the world can't see it. If you don't believe I see it, someone else may see it! I am quite sure that somebody here have been generating more EV from CSM than me. Hope these advantage players keep the good work going and generate more and more bucks forever!

Quote: mckanata

We have a team investigated different models of CSMs, such as One-Two-Six. We've read through every details about these machines. We've observed the actual mechanics and operations of these machines for several hundreds times. We've found out something valuable that the patent paper did not cover......

I'm new here too, and I completely agree with your comments about this MB's culture. Why is everybody here so mean?

On your tantalizing mention of potential design flaws, any chance you could give a hint, new poster to new poster?

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Quote: NokTang

Does this include the Republic of the Philippines? My understanding is that in Angeles City they use a shoe but my information is second hand. I know nothing about the rules etc. but suffice to say, not a good idea to play big there, and win, as would be looked upon as stealing.

Delete

Quote: NokTang

Are you saying this was a "legal" casino? I wasn't aware they had casino's in Seoul. Thanks.

Sorry Nok Tang, I missed your post. I played at the Seven Luck Casino in COEX. It is a ligit casino but they only admit people with a foreign passport. They had some shoe games and some CSMs. I am not a counter, so I don't know if the shoe games were lucrative to a counter or not. I think the penetration was about 2/3.

My biggest concern with CSM are the possibilities the machines will reject sequences advantageous for the player. I know Bally has a patent for it, but how do we know card tracking isn't being used such as casino regulations not allowing it in the first place. I rarely play cards, but am very interested in the ideas.

Quote: mckanata

I'm a newly sign up doesn't mean I am inexperienced in this topic. I'm a newly sign up doesn't mean I do not know what is CSM. Using this kind of attitude to tease people in this forum makes yourself shameful, but it's your choice.

This is my first message in Wizard forum does not mean I was for the purpose of bickering. Which part of my previous reply bicker with you? You mean the fact that CSM BJ is countable equals to bickering? I am speechless then.

The truth is, If you think you know CSM better than me, you should have already known how to use this knowledge to increase your EV. Otherwise, I am sorry to say that you are just not better than me in converting knowledge into usage.

That said, I may agree with you that you were not in purpose to argue the countability of CSM. I can feel that you try to be offensive, to make us angry, and hope we will leak out some secret to bicker with you, at the end will become giving you a big hand to beat a CSM BJ!

We have a team investigated different models of CSMs, such as One-Two-Six. We've read through every details about these machines. We've observed the actual mechanics and operations of these machines for several hundreds times. We've found out something valuable that the patent paper did not cover......

If you are asking in a better manner, I may share more details with you that can help you beating CSM BJ. But your attitude disappointed me. So I will leave it here. Mind your words next time, poor kid.

Last but not least, you can't see how CSM generates EV does not mean everyone in the world can't see it. If you don't believe I see it, someone else may see it! I am quite sure that somebody here have been generating more EV from CSM than me. Hope these advantage players keep the good work going and generate more and more bucks forever!

McKanata and CasinoRaider, welcome to the forum!

You both have pretty good English, great spelling and all, but I can see in your phrasings it is not your native language, and there were some slang/colloquialisms in this thread that may have been misleading. For example, CasinoRaider, they were being sarcastic/teasing about EvenBob, characterizing him as an expert in his own mind, whether he actually knew anything about a subject or not.

However, there's an underlying discussion here that's very interesting to me. McKanata claims he has knowledge that some knowledgable people on here flatly dispute is possible. So, are the usual posters being Luddites about this, or is McKanata making it up? Me, I'm guessing he's put in the time, may well have found a weakness/flaw that can be exploited, might have shared it for independent trial/verification, but got turned off by getting attacked. I can't really see any other reason for him to sign up and post, since he seems to have invested some time in knowing the mechanics.

I have not been made to feel unwelcome, at less than 2 months here, and for that I thank you. May I suggest, please, that you give other folks the benefit you've given me? If the point of this board is to share information, why not evaluate a claim specifically before rejecting it? Otherwise, it's just a Flat Earth society in an industry that's reinventing itself faster than ever before. JMHO.

Quote: mckanata

This is my first message in Wizard forum does not mean I was for the purpose of bickering. Which part of my previous reply bicker with you? You mean the fact that CSM BJ is countable equals to bickering? I am speechless then.

The truth is, If you think you know CSM better than me, you should have already known how to use this knowledge to increase your EV. Otherwise, I am sorry to say that you are just not better than me in converting knowledge into usage.

We have a team investigated different models of CSMs, such as One-Two-Six. We've read through every details about these machines. We've observed the actual mechanics and operations of these machines for several hundreds times. We've found out something valuable that the patent paper did not cover......

Appreciate you response allbeit to spit on my face. Offense taken. If you had been a truthful and responsible guy, maybe, I'll swallow your words. The rest who find him trustworthy and his words true, I pity you as you are not only clouded in mind but totally blindfolded and following herd instinct!

For him to say he can count CSM!!!, the 6 decks are continiously shuffling inside the barrel, and not leaving a single piece of card outside at every hand???? Joking though the little hole between his legs.

Having a team, observing the operations of these machines several hundreds times? You can sit at the tables and watch the thing going for years and not come up with the faintest idea what is going on within, but obliviously, nothing is also happening within their heads!!! To say, you can come up with the system to count CSM, this way????? Perhaps, my tiny toe might believe that, not the dollars in my wallet.

Come back when you can prove yourself. Otherwise, please take a hike..

I'm not saying I believe him. I'm saying it's counterproductive to one of the major purposes of this board to dismiss his claim without evaluating some proof of it. What I believe in is the scientific method and repeatable results. It would appear you've closed that door, however, for all of us inquiring minds.

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Quote: Ibeatyouraces

Wrong! The discards are "randomly" placed into a hamster wheel inside the machine. They technically don't get shuffled.

Would appreciate if you would explain if "placing into the wheel" and continiuosly spinning and shuffling does not constitute "shuffling" and in play? Do you care to explain to me if the cards that were played the last hand would not re-appear in the following one or two hands? Not possible??? They would disappeared from play and only when placed into the deck slot can they re-appear? For God's sake, please open you eyes...the wheel turns..shuffled and place into slot.

Now, please count THAT!!!..Hi-Lo???
Forget maths...this is reality...facts..money on table, cards to beat and yours to call..

I am a bloody idiot and is not aware of the mechanics of CSM..please do tell me more...I have nothing more to reveal and please don't back me off.