There be spies here!
Quote: IbeatyouracesAny form of legit winning, ecxept getting "lucky" violates his/the operators rules. The hell with blaming stupid, incompitant dealers. Lets just blame the players.
No - casinos are completely happy with clean by-the-rules wins from players all the time. A hot roll on dice, a progressive hit on Pai Gow poker, a non-counting win at Blackjack - all are paid to the player with the casino's blessing.
I will say that if you believe otherwise, that "any sort of winning violates casino rules," - then not only are you badly mistaken, you'd be crazy to enter a casino, if you think this is true.
Quote: IbeatyouracesYou're describing excatly what I said....GETTING LUCKY!
Counters and legal hole carders don't get lucky nor need luck. These are the only winners casino do not like.
You have to get LUCKY to beat games that cannot be beaten...
Quote: kewljI am sorry Dan, but I have never seen it posted No card counting and/or no thinking. When I sit down at the table, I see the rules posted. Stand/or hit 17 and insurance on the felt. Table minimum and maximums on a sign. Surrender and splitting rules on a sign. No mid shoe entry where applicable on a sign. Where is this no thinking rule posted?
Why don't you be honest. What the industry really wants is no winners. Why don't they just post a sign saying 'no winning allowed'. They want sloppy, drunk stupid losing players and will do everything in their power to insure the player is just that way, including purposely over-serving many players. Where is the honor and ethics in that?
The industry has already set the rules, to their favor. They have have a built in advantage and they win from 99.99 percent of the players. That's a pretty nice winning percent. But that's not enough.....they want 100%. And for every one of those .01 percent (and that's a generous estimate) that is able to beat the house by thinking, by doubling their 8 against the dealer 5 when they think the deck is rich, there are 100 players that stand on their 12 and 13's against the dealer 10, who don't double an 11 against a 6, who hit a 15 vs a dealer 5. So give me a break. You and your industry need to STFU, man up and play the game. You are in the business of taking action and you have a huge advantage. I am all for protecting yourself against crooks and cheats, but quit crying about the 1 in 10,000 players that wins by completely legal means by doing nothing more than thinking.
And now I am off to do some thinking. :)
WOW ....... do I agree with this post. The only winners casinos want are those that win 50K on a Keno ticket or a million dollars on a slot pull because it is great publicity for them.
Quote: DeMangoThat is why no advantage plays should see the light of day on this site. Idiots that come on here to brag, just blow it for themselves and everyone else. Next thing you know somebody will be live streaming a craps challenge. Nitwits.
LOL! You are the nitwit! There is no advantage play while rolling the dice legally. I don't think the casinos are concerned .....
Quote: IbeatyouracesGambling... Betting or wagering anything of value on an unknown outcome.
Just because I have a 20 and the dealer has a 10 up and I know that a 6 is in the hole doesn't guarantee me a win. In other words, when I make my bet, I do not know what the end result will be.
So true. Good post!
If you beat me by following my posted rules, you win. If it's because my dealer is flashing a card, that's my problem, not yours. If I put out a promotion you can take advantage of, good for you. If I screw up and allow you to have an advantage over me and you are just taking advantage of it without breaking any play rules, congratulations. It's my job to make sure my games are protected, not the players.
ZCore13
Quote: PaigowdanThe below are your terms, not any operator's terms.
[q GH]"* House Rules: Publicly posted, terms and conditions on the operation of a game." No - These are "GH" rules.
[Reality]"* House rules already publicly known, regardless of any postings, which are not a condition, even if you feel that they should be one of YOUR conditions. Violation of house rules, to include counting and using flashed information can lead to being backed off or dismissed from the property." Doesn't actually matter how AP Player 'x' feels about it, or what he thinks about it.
"* Cheating: Any action that, through legal precedent, that has been criminalized by a regulatory or legislative body." Correct here.
"* Advantage Play: Any action that does not violate house rules, and is not considered cheating; but the casino wishes it were."
No. Under this definition, card counting is not an advantage play, as it violates the house rules fully enough for a back off or expulsion. By your own definition, only Basic Strategy is an advantage play on blackjack, as counting does violate the house rules. You get backed off for exactly this reason.
* Countermeasure: Things a casino is legally allowed to do, in order to discourage excessive abuse of advantage plays; either to the game or the player in question.
Yup.
Okay, I got 2 of 4 right; based on my Computer/Information Security background. So...
What term would you use to call those acts (card counting, card holing) that by legal precedent, have not been criminalized?
1) What exactly is "card counting"? If I am at a table and 25 cards in a row come out that are 9 or lower, I would have to be an idiot not to realize that there is a good probability of many high cards coming out next. I was not intentionally counting but I mean I am aware of the game that is going on. Conversely, how is that different from someone who keeps track a little more diligently. At what point are you an oberver versus a counter?
2) If casinos are so scared of counters, why don't they all go to the continuous shuffling machings?
Quote: hook36702) If casinos are so scared of counters, why don't they all go to the continuous shuffling machings?
Simple economics; If I'm gonna play $300 a hand at Aria, I want to have conditions to my liking. If I don't get those conditions, I'll go elsewhere. I also think that maybe it's because the machines are leased, not owned; or that there's some kind of usage, royalty, or licensing fee involved.
The fact that you are dealing with a limited amount of decks and draws cards down from the deck allows for counting, plain and simple. It is a weakness of the game of blackjack.
----
I'm not surprised that casino personnel survey this site for knowledge.
I think the best answer to your question is "when the casino thinks you can hurt them financially"...most card counters (i.e.--people who think they are counters but are not practiced enough/bankrolled enough) fail to make a dent in casino earnings. If and when someone draws the notice of management at a particular casino they might be backed off /barred if a skill check indicates that they are counting. But even then it's iffy. Most "counters" just don't scare the casino much. I was at an East Coast casino recently where the pit person noticed another player at the table was counting and said something friendly about it. He got real nervous. She laughed it off, and said "counting's not illegal, be my guest". I'm sure the fact that he had been consistently losing all night and was down about 2K (at a $25 table) made her more comfortable saying this. Also he was a real shitty counter...made bad plays, announced why he was doing them(his logic was usually flawed), etc etc. Had this same player been up big..might have been a different story.
As for CSM's most players dislike them, especially higher limit players. They are pretty common in low limit games, especially outside Vegas. So as someone else said, if you want a $300 a hand player to stay and play, you make him comfortable or someone else will.
One player won 4 trips in a row so they kicked him out.He didn`t even know basic strategy. So yes casinos will kick you out for being lucky
Quote: teliotI monitor this site closely for any hint of a table game advantage play that I haven't yet written about on my blog. I also monitor blackjacktheforum, discountgambling, bj21, advantageplayer, beyondcounting and a couple of others.
We are aware sir. We are monitoring you, monitoring us. :)
Quote: teliotI monitor this site closely for any hint of a table game advantage play that I haven't yet written about on my blog. I also monitor blackjacktheforum, discountgambling, bj21, advantageplayer, beyondcounting and a couple of others.
And because you represent the DarkSide, why would anybody
post anything useful that you can tell them? Or are you just
warning us not to..
By the way, congrats on the new job Dan.
Evaluating a gazillion games here, trying my best to make them "WOV member-proof." :)
I'm thinking of changing my handle here to "Tenacious D"
Quote: MakingBookIt's nice to have PaigowDan back, with yet another card-counting/cheater tantrum.
By the way, congrats on the new job Dan.
Yes, super congratulations! I can assure you that if blackjack did not exist, and someone proposed it now, it would NEVER get past Dan to the floor unless a CSM was being used. The only reason it exists in the shoe or hand dealt form is that it existed that way before casinos were smart enough to realize it was beatable.
A similar analogy in medicine would be aspirin. The number of side effects/complications/risks is high enough that if it were a brand new drug it might not get FDA approval. Its long history overrides all the data against it. Google Reyes' syndrome for one example.
Quote: LonesomeGamblerI didn't read past page one (sorry), but I can unambiguously confirm that this site in particular is one that is actively monitored by surveillance personnel at various casinos, along with BJ21. Hell, I'm sure all of the non-private forums do as well, but this is one of the primary ones that some surveillance folks look to for AP-related information. I used to be confused when I would meet well-known or well-respected APs and they would tell me that they never visited forums. I understand now. I enjoy reading and contributing to these forums, but a lot of people don't know where to draw the line, unfortunately. I've been guilty of this myself in the past.
This doesn't necessarily mean that someone was looking for AP information but I have seen this site pulled up in the pit more than once. It was usually about strategy which is not something that I would discuss at the table.
Quote: SOOPOO
A similar analogy in medicine would be aspirin. The number of side effects/complications/risks is high enough that if it were a brand new drug it might not get FDA approval.
My doc has me taking an aspirin every day. Should
I sue him before Obamacare kicks in, while he's
still worth something? He told me last month to
brush up on understanding doctors from India,
cause in 10 years 8 out 10 doctors in the US will
be from there.
Don't worry, chances are you won't be around.Quote: EvenBobMy doc has me taking an aspirin every day. Should
I sue him before Obamacare kicks in, while he's
still worth something? He told me last month to
brush up on understanding doctors from India,
cause in 10 years 8 out 10 doctors in the US will
be from there.
Quote: TheNightflyDon't worry, chances are you won't be around.
With Obamacare, you're probably right. I'm over
60, the death panel has already crossed my name
off. Just give him a pill and send him home, that
was Obama's advice.
Quote: SOOPOOI can assure you that if blackjack did not exist, and someone proposed it now, it would NEVER get past Dan to the floor unless a CSM was being used. The only reason it exists in the shoe or hand dealt form is that it existed that way before casinos were smart enough to realize it was beatable.
Maybe Dan might "propose" bringing back some of the original rules from Napoleon's day, described in "The Big Book Of Blackjack," such as:
* No exposed Dealer up card.
* Dealer can "double down" against everyone's bet, forcing you to either ante up or surrender.
