AC weekend

Quote: aceofspades

Buzz - up until this past month - it was a glorious year for winning (anywhere but at Revel)
THis last month brought me back to even.

Resolve to take the year past and benefit from it in the future.

“Live as if you were to die tomorrow. Learn as if you were to live forever.” - Gandhi

Quote: aceofspades

Buzz - up until this past month - it was a glorious year for winning (anywhere but at Revel)
THis last month brought me back to even.

Stop Going To Revel;-)

Quote: Buzzard

I know that ACES, not busting your chops. SHIT happens that's all. Put 2012 down as a learning experience. 2013 is right around the corner !

Buzz I did not take it as anything but busting my chops :)

Revel is not the problem. That's like blaming the dealer.

Quote: rdw4potus

Quote: aceofspades

Buzz - up until this past month - it was a glorious year for winning (anywhere but at Revel)
THis last month brought me back to even.

Stop Going To Revel;-)

From all the AP forum posts and reading on the internet about blackjack - I was always under the impression that true BJ players did not believe in superstition and that there is no 'sacred order' to the cards...yet, everyone here advocates my stopping play at Revel
I am not saying I disagree, I am just very surprised by AP players holding these beliefs

Quote: 1BB

Revel is not the problem. That's like blaming the dealer.

I disagree. But I guess I could restate to avoid singling out Revel:

Every $100 hand played in PA is $0.20 better for the player on average than a hand played in NJ. For the love of God, stop playing in NJ.

Quote: aceofspades

yet, everyone here advocates my stopping play at Revel
I am not saying I disagree, I am just very surprised by AP players holding these beliefs

They have inferior rules, and they've been rude to you. It's not some superstition that's causing me to tell you to look at other options...:-)

Quote: rdw4potus

They have inferior rules, and they've been rude to you. It's not some superstition that's causing me to tell you to look at other options...:-)

Does the $.20 per hand difference account for the fact that I would have to pay for my own hotel stays in PA?

Quote: aceofspades

The only rule that differs is the surrender rule. Does the $.20 per hand difference account for the fact that I would have to pay for my own hotel stays in PA?

You might have to pay for the first stay, if it couldn't be comped by the end of the weekend. It's hard to think that the Sands or Mount Airy or Valley Forge wouldn't comp you in their hotel on future stays based on your relatively heavy black action.

Is surrender really the only rule difference? All of PA is S17 - Revel has S17 tables on the floor?

Quote: rdw4potus

You might have to pay for the first stay, if it couldn't be comped by the end of the weekend. It's hard to think that the Sands or Mount Airy or Valley Forge wouldn't comp you in their hotel on future stays based on your relatively heavy black action.

Is surrender really the only rule difference? All of PA is S17 - Revel has S17 tables on the floor?

Yes in Pit 1, Pit 2 and the Ultralounge - all S17

Quote: aceofspades

Yes in Pit 1, Pit 2 and the Ultralounge - all S17

OK, then the benefit of playing in PA is $.08/hand. Plus, they won't treat you like crap and then try to justify that decision instead of apologizing for it.

Quote: rdw4potus

OK, then the benefit of playing in PA is $.08/hand. Plus, they won't treat you like crap and then try to justify that decision instead of apologizing for it.

What is the proximity of other casinos in PA to one another?

Quote: aceofspades

What is the proximity of other casinos in PA to one another?

Parx, Valley Forge, and Harrah's are all about 20 miles from each other, Sugar house is more or less in the middle of that triangle. The Sands is about 50 miles north of Parx and Valley Forge. Mount Airy is another 30 miles north from Sands. So, they're pretty far apart. But if you're just going to play in one place anyway...

I have a better idea Ace...switch over to "Go Fish" :p

Quote: TIMSPEED

I have a better idea Ace...switch over to "Go Fish" :p

sarcasm?

Back to REVEL. No superstition involved, but there is a home court advantage in all games. Pure physiological for the most part.

There is no difference, for the most part, in pool tables, bowling alleys, dart boards in pubs, etc. But that home advantage exists.

It can not be denied. If a joint is beating your brains in, why go back ?

Especially when the same or better games can be found in that same area ? Are Revel comps beyond compare ?

Are Revel rules, penetration, more favorable than any other AC casino's. ?

In a past life, were you the Captain of the Pequod ? ? ? ?

Quote: aceofspades

sarcasm?

Perhaps Not. At one time Go Fish was the big money game in New England states.

Quote: aceofspades

sarcasm?

I'm on my phone, or I'd post a pic of a good casino you should try out... :P

In a past life, were you the Captain of the Pequod ? ? ? ?


I love a good literary reference.

Seriously though in Ace's defense. I live in MD and drive past PA and DE casinos to get to AC...for lots of reasons. Mostly there is stuff to do beyond the casino itself..and there are 11 casino's within walking distance or a short cab ride. To me (and to Ace I suspect) that's worth .08 a hand.

Quote: vendman1

In a past life, were you the Captain of the Pequod ? ? ? ?


I love a good literary reference.

Seriously though in Ace's defense. I live in MD and drive past PA and DE casinos to get to AC...for lots of reasons. Mostly there is stuff to do beyond the casino itself..and there are 11 casino's within walking distance or a short cab ride. To me (and to Ace I suspect) that's worth .08 a hand.

The nail on the head is what you just hit

" there are 11 casino's within walking distance or a short cab ride." Can I assume not all are named REVEL ?

Ace, are you playing or attempting to play with an advantage? Are you counting and using a big enough spread to be playing a pos EV game and disciplined enough to keep throwing out the proper bets despite losses? Disciplined enough to exit some of the negative counts? I ask, because from your reports it is kind of hard to tell what you are doing? Playing with an advantage or just having a good time. I am not going to go back and read all your reports, but aren't you playing other games besides BJ?

I mean the thing is if you are there to gamble and have a good time and you are breaking even for the year that's not so bad. That's a pretty good result. But if you are seriously trying to play with an advantage and make some money, I feel like you have some discipline problems. Not trying to put you down here, Ace. Just trying to understand what you are up to. For the kind of money you are throwing around, you should be playing at an advantage and seriously trying to make some money. For starters, I would cut down the trips to AC. The place is a dump. Bad BJ rules. They dug their own grave. Let them rot away and drift out to sea. Airfare is pretty cheap right now, you should turn some of those 4 day weekends into Vegas 4 day weekends, where you can make some real money.

Someone mentioned Valley Forge in this thread. Valley forge, like most of Pa has real good games, but they tolerate zilch. Don't play Valley forge if you are counting. I am not sure who is running the show over there, but they must have gone to the El Cortez school of casino management as they are very sweaty and VERY quick to backoff anyone they think is moving money with the count. I was backed off there 3 times in 2012 out of only 6 times in the building. That is 37% of my BJ backoffs for the year (3 of 8) occurred in this building where about .4% of my yearly play has taken place. They are the El Cortez of the east. lol As a matter of fact I have a better record at the real El Cortez. I also have 3 backoffs there for the year but have played almost 3000 rounds.

Quote: rdw4potus

Quote: aceofspades

Buzz - up until this past month - it was a glorious year for winning (anywhere but at Revel)
THis last month brought me back to even.

Stop Going To Revel;-)

START GOING TO PENNSYLVANIA! ;-)

Quote: Buzzard

" there are 11 casino's within walking distance or a short cab ride." Can I assume not all are named REVEL ?

Yeah, and many of them are bed bug infested homeless shelters, and many serve food from their roach infested soup kitchens.

I said he could play BJ there, not wine and dine!

Quote: kewlj

Ace, are you playing or attempting to play with an advantage? Are you counting and using a big enough spread to be playing a pos EV game and disciplined enough to keep throwing out the proper bets despite losses? Disciplined enough to exit some of the negative counts? I ask, because from your reports it is kind of hard to tell what you are doing? Playing with an advantage or just having a good time. I am not going to go back and read all your reports, but aren't you playing other games besides BJ?

I mean the thing is if you are there to gamble and have a good time and you are breaking even for the year that's not so bad. That's a pretty good result. But if you are seriously trying to play with an advantage and make some money, I feel like you have some discipline problems. Not trying to put you down here, Ace. Just trying to understand what you are up to. For the kind of money you are throwing around, you should be playing at an advantage and seriously trying to make some money. For starters, I would cut down the trips to AC. The place is a dump. Bad BJ rules. They dug their own grave. Let them rot away and drift out to sea. Airfare is pretty cheap right now, you should turn some of those 4 day weekends into Vegas 4 day weekends, where you can make some real money.

Someone mentioned Valley Forge in this thread. Valley forge, like most of Pa has real good games, but they tolerate zilch. Don't play Valley forge if you are counting. I am not sure who is running the show over there, but they must have gone to the El Cortez school of casino management as they are very sweaty and VERY quick to backoff anyone they think is moving money with the count. I was backed off there 3 times in 2012 out of only 6 times in the building. That is 37% of my BJ backoffs for the year (3 of 8) occurred in this building where about .4% of my yearly play has taken place. They are the El Cortez of the east. lol As a matter of fact I have a better record at the real El Cortez. I also have 3 backoffs there for the year but have played almost 3000 rounds.

I only play BJ. (The only time I sit at a slot machine is when I have a free slot play coupon and I only use the coupon).
I suppose my advantage is not all that much of an advantage using the "speed count".

deleted

deleted

Quote: aceofspades

I only play BJ. (The only time I sit at a slot machine is when I have a free slot play coupon and I only use the coupon).
I suppose my advantage is not all that much of an advantage using the "speed count".

Oh that's right. Sorry, I forgot about the speed count. lol Speed count is certainly not my favorite. I personally think you are giving away too much of the advantage from even the level one counts, but if you are spreading enough, even with speed count, you should be able to play at an advantage, even the crappy Jersey Shore games. Since you seem like you want to really play at an advantage and are willing to play some serious money, why not take the time to learn a level one count like hi-lo or K-O. I am not a proponent of learning higher level counts, especially if your main focus is on shoe games, but on the other hand, I don't want to give up any of the advantage you can get with a level one. If I remember correctly speed counts gives up like 20% or more of that advantage. Hi-lo or K-O isn't much harder to learn than speed count.

My mistake about about playing other games. I must have you confused with one of the 'other' trip reports.

Quote: Buzzard

I said he could play BJ there, not wine and dine!

Then who is going to give him freebies?

Quote: rdw4potus

I disagree. But I guess I could restate to avoid singling out Revel:

Every $100 hand played in PA is $0.20 better for the player on average than a hand played in NJ. For the love of God, stop playing in NJ.

Blackjack at Revel is no worse than anywhere else in town. That's what I meant by don't blame the casino. Ace is well aware of Pennsylvania but enjoys AC. He's using the Speed Count so I don't know how much difference a trip across the border would make.

I don't know where he lives but I have mentioned Connecticut a couple of times. He can get the same game he's playing at Revel with surrender and with 80% penetration. With his playing style I don't think heat would be a concern as long as he doesn't win a huge amount and I believe he would be treated well there.

The bottom line is that he is treated well for the most part at Revel, he brings others with him who I assume also enjoy Revel and everyone is happy there. He knows his weaknesses and he knows his options so it's all good.

Quote: rdw4potus

As a WAG of the theo here: 8 hours of play per weekend, 80 hands/hour, $300 average bet/hand, standard AC rules with a .64% HE... about $1225/weekend in theoretical gain to the casino. I suppose a penny slot player could get there at max bet, but that's not exactly likely.

fwiw, a penny slot player could get that theo with max bets on many machines. Many machines max bets are 3 to 5 bucks a pull now. If the player pulls 500x/hr: $3x500x0.12x8hrs = $1440 theo

And BJ HE is 0.64% for S17 in AC? He is playing S17 right?

deleted

I will vouch that Ace's notion that the variance in AC is insane, regardless the count.

I was there today, and although I did come out ahead, I had 3 big hands that left me baffled at Ballys.


A) A-A vs Dealer 3, split my hand for $150 each to get Q and 10h. Dealer flips a J and catches an 8! (Count was +12)


B) 6-4 vs Dealer 8, Double for a 10s... dealer flips a 4, gets 4 and 5 (Count was +7)


C) 8-3 vs Dealer 4, Double for a 9... dealer turns over 6, gets 5 and then a 6! (Count was +9)


I left Ballys, ahead $175. But would've had an extra $450 had those doubles/splits held up and not got destroyed.


So I'm going back to Sands and Ace you're more than welcome to join me!

Quote: BedWetterBetter

I will vouch that Ace's notion that the variance in AC is insane, regardless the count.

I was there today, and although I did come out ahead, I had 3 big hands that left me baffled at Ballys.


A) A-A vs Dealer 3, split my hand for $150 each to get Q and 10h. Dealer flips a J and catches an 8! (Count was +12)


B) 6-4 vs Dealer 8, Double for a 10s... dealer flips a 4, gets 4 and 5 (Count was +7)


C) 8-3 vs Dealer 4, Double for a 9... dealer turns over 6, gets 5 and then a 6! (Count was +9)


I left Ballys, ahead $175. But would've had an extra $450 had those doubles/splits held up and not got destroyed.


So I'm going back to Sands and Ace you're more than welcome to join me!

I know all of those hands all too well. It seems the gods of variance skipped town when the hurricane blew in.

Quote: aceofspades

It seems the gods of variance skipped town when the hurricane blew in.

Ace, you dropped $17K in your last 2 casino visits? Are
you still deep in depression or are you coming out of it?
Do you feel like the Grinch was with you last weekend,
stealing your Christmas? I bet that bitchy host is being
nice to you now. Real nice..

Gee, Santa Claus came early this year. Welcome Back Evenbob

Quote: EvenBob

Ace, you dropped $17K in your last 2 casino visits? Are
you still deep in depression or are you coming out of it?
Do you feel like the Grinch was with you last weekend,
stealing your Christmas? I bet that bitchy host is being
nice to you now. Real nice..

It was over 3 of 4 visits...
What it felt like was getting kicked in the you know whats
It felt as if every time the dealer took a card, I could see it coming out to make 21 even before it was revealed
It just felt, in a word, nauseating

Actually, have not heard one word from my host at all this whole time...

" It felt as if every time the dealer took a card, I could see it coming "

"Feets, don't fail me now!"

Quote: rdw4potus

Even after all that, the value of a room in a half-full hotel is the cost of the housekeeping in the morning. So, about $3. The value of a free meal in a half-full restaurant is the cost of the food, so about $3. You can only claim the retail markups on those items if you're actually depriving a revenue-generating customer of service by giving them away to a casino player...

I disagree. The value to me of a comped hotel room or comped meal is the cost I'd have to otherwise pay to get it, not the casino's cost for giving it to me. A $150 hotel room and a $50 meal are worth $200 to me since that's what I'd have to pay myself to get them without the comp. The fact that it only costs the casino a small fraction of that to provide those to me is irrelevant.

Quote: Toes14

I disagree. The value to me of a comped hotel room or comped meal is the cost I'd have to otherwise pay to get it, not the casino's cost for giving it to me. A $150 hotel room and a $50 meal are worth $200 to me since that's what I'd have to pay myself to get them without the comp. The fact that it only costs the casino a small fraction of that to provide those to me is irrelevant.

I always end up thinking that the room and food cost me the amount I lost for the trip

Quote: Toes14

I disagree. The value to me of a comped hotel room or comped meal is the cost I'd have to otherwise pay to get it, not the casino's cost for giving it to me. A $150 hotel room and a $50 meal are worth $200 to me since that's what I'd have to pay myself to get them without the comp. The fact that it only costs the casino a small fraction of that to provide those to me is irrelevant.

sheesh Toes14......You make perfect sense, but unless you have a MBA diploma (even from a mail order outfit) hanging, you aren't allowed to put $ cost on anything.

Quote: aceofspades

I always end up thinking that the room and food cost me the amount I lost for the trip

What about the days you had winnning trips?

Quote: Toes14

I disagree...A $150 hotel room and a $50 meal are worth $200 to me since that's what I'd have to pay myself to get them without the comp. The fact that it only costs the casino a small fraction of that to provide those to me is irrelevant.

I do realize that I over-simplified. I was trying to prove a point, perhaps a bit too assishly for my own good. I think it's appropriate for the player to value the comped room and meal at whatever value they would have paid were the comp not given. I'm not sure it's fair to say that's necessarily the full listed price of the room or food that was actually given, though. This evening, I had a "$22" comped meal of spring rolls and shrimp fried rice at Valley Forge. Prices on the menu at VF are inflated because most people are either paying with comps or specifically buying $10 in food to get "free" casino entry, so I'd rather consider my meal to have the value - about $13 - that I'd have paid at another local Chinese restaurant if a free meal hadn't been offered by VF. Similarly, I stayed for free at Harrah's NKC two weeks ago. That room was "worth" $199 at full price, but if it weren't comped I'd have stayed in a similarly appointed room at a Comfort Suites or Fairfield for $110/night before I paid the $199 rate at the casino. So I think it's fair to say that Harrah's NKC saved me $110, not $199, with the comped room.

The opposite side of these points also holds true. The half-full casino hotel isn't giving me a $199 room for free. $199 isn't a price they were ever going to get for my room - and if they were, they wouldn't give it to a flea like me for free. The casino gave me $4 worth of toiletries, about $2 worth of utilities and cable, and $3-$5 worth of housekeeping services for free; and for that they got about 10 hours of $25 Texas Shootout play. And VF didn't give me $22 worth of food. they gave me much less in terms of cost. Maybe they'd have given me $22 worth of value if that really was the opportunity cost of the meal, like if it was a Saturday night and my presence would cause them to miss or delay service to a revenue generating customer. But 20 minutes before closing on a Tuesday evening, my order simply activated idle staff to prepare perishable items. The only part of my order that wasn't destined for the scrap heap was the rice, so I'd argue that they gave me about $.25 and got 5 solid hours of $10 UTH play out of it. I do realize that this is an extreme example, and that it was my choice to "pay" $15 for a plate of rice at a 500% markup from cost. I could have opted for a cheeseburger with a more reasonable margin instead; but the point holds.

For what it's worth, the delta between the casino's actual cost to provide these comps and the player's perceived benefit from the comps is the entire reason that comps are so powerful in the first place. Instead of giving me $22 cash, VF gave me $3 worth of food and labor, called it "$22", and I'm mostly happy with that. VF saves $18 in cost in this exchange. Same with Harrah's - $10ish dollars in cost translates to a "$199" comped room, and I'm almost as happy to take that as I would have been to take $199 cash.

rd4potus you make no sense. Stop making assumptions. The university who gave you that MBA might recall that piece of paper.

Quote: Bhappy

rd4potus you make no sense. Stop making assumptions. The university who gave you that MBA might recall that piece of paper.

I'm truly sorry that this is over your head. That probably goes a long way to explaining why your employer is failing so incredibly badly.

The personal attacks in this thread are slightly over the top, the value involved is inherently a wholly subjective interpretation, thus neither case is right or wrong.

I tend to agree with RDW4Potus' perspective that the true, "Value," in my opinion, is based on what similar appointments would cost elsewhere. This is particularly true where RDW mentions going to hotels/restaurants where he believes the quality of the product/service is substantially similar to what he is getting comped at an otherwise greater retail price.

If you really wanted to get into it from this perspective, though, then you would have to look at the cost of those similar appointments + the transportation costs required to get to those locations (you're already at the casino) + the $$$ value you would place upon your time to get to those appointments.

I don't think that you look at it from the standpoint of the businesses actual expense to provide you the comps, however, so I disagree with RDW in this regard pursuant to the fact that the player is not the business, so I consider what it actually costs the business to be irrelevant to the player.

Yeah, the only way to value comps is fair market value of similar items. That doesn't mean the cheapest thing even resembling it anywhere and it also doesn't mean list price at the casino.

Quote: Bhappy

rd4potus you make no sense. Stop making assumptions. The university who gave you that MBA might recall that piece of paper.

sorry Bhappy, but rdw4potus is making a lot of sense. And I also have to agree that this whole topic might explain how Revel seems to have gone into financial trouble at warp speed. At most of the SUCCESSFUL casino operations, the hotel is nothing more than a convenience used to get players into the casino. And the 'published' rate I bet is almost never charged. The casino uses it to make the player believe the comps they are receiving are worth more than they really are.
As rdw4potus stated, the food prices are greatly inflated too. I eat at BR Prime at Beau Rivage. It is probably the best meat and seafood I ever eat, but the $280 I spend is so over inflated. I do it because the casino is giving me comp dollars that I need to spend. But I know these are not REAL dollars.

Just as there are ploppies who will sit down and play 6:5 BJ, there are ploppies who will pay the full fare for a casino hotel room, and pay real dollars to eat in the casino restaurant. They just don't understand how it works, or perhaps they don't care to know.

Quote: Mission146

...
I don't think that you look at it from the standpoint of the businesses actual expense to provide you the comps, however, so I disagree with RDW in this regard pursuant to the fact that the player is not the business, so I consider what it actually costs the business to be irrelevant to the player.

I have to disagree with you on this point Mission. As a player who is being led to believe the casino is giving me something of value, I want to know exactly what I am getting. And there are 2 things that need to be considered.

1. What is the perceived value to me?
2. What is the actual cost to the casino of giving me that perk?

The casino knows what they are getting from the player. They track our bets, they know their edge on the game, they calculate our Theo. They do not need to track the actual win/loss because they know that in the long haul, for ALL of their players, the Theo will be the casino actual. Some players will win, most will lose, but in the end, the casino actual will be close to the theo. In return for our action, the casino offers us incentives to stay, or return.
In order for me to evaluate how generous the casino is being to me, I need to know what it is really costing them to give me that perk. The value the casino assigns (the published room rate, or the inflated food costs) are just white noise. They do not help me answer either question 1 or 2.