Opinions of the Red 7 Count

I have been playing for about 5 months, put in about 150 hrs of casino playing time, and at least three times that many hrs practicing. I have basic strategy down cold. I typically play double or single deck games and am able to keep the count while talking with the dealer and other players while not looking interested in everyone elses cards. My question is in regards to anyone elses opinion of the red 7 count. This is the count that i have been using. I first read Snyders "the big book of blackjack." In there he mentions that it takes advantage of 80 % of all oppurtunities because you will make less errors by not having to memorize indexes or having to convert to true count, therefore you will play you hands more accurately. I have had success using it, my main issues have revolved around having and insufficient bankroll and therefore overbetting my bankroll.What are your opinions of this count system? Is it better to use a simpler system correctly 99% of the time than using a more complicated system while making more errors? Thank you everyone for your feedback.

There are lots of debates in the BJ community about counting systems and in particular just how much gain a player really gets with a higher level count. I am a believer in keeping it simple. A level 1 count (red 7 is a level 1 count) is more than adequate for most players, recreational and pro alike, IMO. The exception might be solo professional player that play very high stakes, that might not be able to get the spread down that they would like, might benefit from playing a higher level count and squeezing out every bit he can. But for the rest of us, level 1 counts are fine.

I personally, am finishing my ninth year of supporting myself from solely from AP opportunities and the majority of that play is simple blackjack card counting. I started with the 'standard', level one, hi-lo count. After 4 years, I switched to a level 2 count, Revere Point Count, which I played for 18 months before switching back to hi-lo. I truly believe that much more important than what count you play is that you play it well, seek out and play good games and are properly bankrolled.

So while, Red seven is fine if you are comfortable with it, it would not be my choice for a couple reasons. First it is an unbalanced count. Unbalanced counts were created to eliminate the need to convert the running count to a true count for the number of decks in play. In doing so, it does give up a little bit of accuracy. I have never felt that true count conversion to be that difficult or bothersome, so I don't want to give up that accuracy for no reason. The second thing I don't like about unbalanced counts is the way you start counting with a negative number. I find counting negatives slightly more burdensome. But that is me personally, if you are comfortable with it and after 150 hrs of play and 450 hours of practice you should be, so no need to change. It will work fine.

What concerns me more than your choice of count, is your statement about "insufficient funds" and "overbetting your bankroll". You are playing to a high 'risk of ruin' which if you are not familiar with RoR (and you should be), it is exactly what it sounds like. Playing to a high RoR is a disaster waiting to happen. Many players do so, especially early on when they are underfunded and get away with it. I myself did. But, doing so means that you could get wiped out, despite the fact that you are doing everything else correctly.

I'll try to keep it simple. What you can play perfectly is what you should play. Going above level 2 systems, the return is too small to justify the added complexity. Some would even argue that level 2 systems are not that advanced over familiar and popular level 1 systems. However, Hi-Opt II is probably the best overall system.

Its not so great playing Red-7 on single/double deck games, its much better at shoe games (54/69 for Play Eff.{1-2 Decks} and 98/100 Bet Corr.{4+ Decks}). When you're ready to move up, try Hi-Opt II (no side-count of Aces). A second reason to move up is for gains when taking Insurance. R7 scores 78/100 and HO-II is 91/100. Essentially a top insurance Index like HO-II does not count 9's and Aces.

Cheers

Quote: kewlj

The second thing I don't like about unbalanced counts is the way you start counting with a negative number. I find counting negatives slightly more burdensome. But that is me personally...

It's easy enough to eliminate the negative counts by just tweaking the IRC to your taste. KISS III uses a default IRC that is positive and rarely dips into the negative (and if it does, you should probably be taking a cell phone call). I don't remember what the "default" IRC is for KO but in any case, all of these counts are easy enough to modify to taste.

Quote: 98Clubs

I'll try to keep it simple. What you can play perfectly is what you should play.

Good advice. I might replace "perfectly" with "well." Personally, I've used the plus-minus for 25 years. It isn't going to get much better than that with me.

Quote: Wizard

Good advice. I might replace "perfectly" with "well." Personally, I've used the plus-minus for 25 years. It isn't going to get much better than that with me.

Wizard, I have a question for you. Everyone knows who you are. Your picture is on your website. How can you sit down at a casino and play blackjack without severe heat?

AxiomOfChoice good point ! (I am very curious about that aspect too) And I too have a question which I think fits well in this thread:

Say I use a spread of 1 to 5 and play in a 8 (or 6) deck game with no surrender and with 50% penetration where the house edge is exactly 0.5% from rules. What will be my edge using a Red7 count + IL18 compared with a Hi-Lo count but with only basic strategy?

Quote: PlayHunter

AxiomOfChoice good point ! (I am very curious about that aspect too) And I too have a question which I think fits well in this thread:

Say I use a spread of 1 to 5 and play in a 8 (or 6) deck game with no surrender and with 50% penetration where the house edge is exactly 0.5% from rules. What will be my edge using a Red7 count + IL18 compared with a Hi-Lo count but with only basic strategy?

Your edge will be about 0 with that spread and those rules, regardless of system! A 1-5 spread is not enough to beat a shoe game. 1-10 is the bare minimum to have a decent edge. Add in really bad penetration at 50%, and I would not surprised if you would be playing with a net disadvantage under these conditions.

Now if we alter the above to be a 1 to 10 spread, 6 decks, 0.5% HE off the top, and 75% penetration, then you will have a workable edge - with either system. The difference would almost be a roundoff error.

Also, one note is that the "stock" Red 7 as presented by Snyder in the literature doesn't have full index numbers for the I18, so you would have to generate those on your own, or find an additional resource.