Paigowdan
Paigowdan
Joined: Apr 28, 2010
  • Threads: 115
  • Posts: 5692
December 1st, 2012 at 4:52:37 PM permalink
Quote: Buzzard

" If you get away with it, then yes, indeed. " and what exactly an I getting away with, other than playing good enough to win ?


The point I'm trying to make is that if you get away with somethat that you know is against the house rules, then you can ALWAYS argue "I was just using my brains!!" and it would be hard to falsify, IF gotten away with. This applies to a million situations, regardless of ethics, legality, yada yada yada.

My point is that if you play by the rules, you are never in danger, and never in trouble, and are also using your brains. And if you doing something where:
1. You Have to break the rules to win, which is not an optimal situation, as
2. May indeed get caught and have some trouble.
3. you're in a negative EV sitation, too. especially because the house can tighten the tolerance or enforcement as needed, when rules are not followed.

in this regard, anyone walking into a casino to gamble at anything other than player-banked poker with NO house rake is facing SOME sort of a losing proposition - be it in negative EV, or in seldom positive EV with more of a chance of getting backed off, so that too is a negative EV.

Which is to say, if you're going to use that argument, the only ones "using their brains" are the ones never setting foot in a freaking casino,
---- IF "+EV" and "-EV" are the only reasons and criteria why you step into a casino.


Believe it or not, some people step into a casino, and win less than they lose, and are FINE with that, - but always had fun or "recreation" playing cards or rolling dice, have the shot at it - and they are winners. Hard to see.

For that matter, - I ALWAYS have a "-EV" - negative EV, that is to say - whenever I go to the movies or to a restaurant, AND I always leave with much less money, and I often don't like the film I saw, or meal I had. Totally a negative EV experience in dollars and cents, - screw having fun there, or as a reason to go there!

I guess if I were "using my brains," then I'd then never go to a movie house or restaurant - as they are always negative EV actions, AND I ALWAYS leave with less than I came with 100% of the time - and I don't always like the film or meal.

I so guess the only +EV action is to accept the admission price, and make damn sure you had fun, and didn't get backed off.

Now this makes sense to very few at this place.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
MakingBook
MakingBook
Joined: Sep 19, 2011
  • Threads: 24
  • Posts: 496
December 1st, 2012 at 4:54:02 PM permalink
Quote: Gor

Thanks for the clarification guys. The dealer also told me that surrender vs ace is not allowed. Is this standard in Las Vegas?



Never heard that one. Maybe the dealer is just clueless....many are.
"I am a man devoured by the passion for gambling." --Dostoevsky, 1871
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
Joined: Apr 28, 2010
  • Threads: 115
  • Posts: 5692
December 1st, 2012 at 4:57:16 PM permalink
Quote: MakingBook

Never heard that one. Maybe the dealer is just clueless....many are.



True, it's a hard rule to deal or play, as it is rare. When players are uncertain, they can ask and find out here.
Surrender is such a rare option, that its game play mechanisms are generally not known.

Surrender is usually not allowed against a dealer's Ace up card, as you can't surrender against a possible dealer's immediate blackjack.

A semi-popular Blackjack variant, SuperFun-21, shows surrender very well, but includes "late surrender," where you can surrender after hitting and getting a bad card, or on a dealer's ace after not showing a blackjack.
Early surrender is surrendering on your first two cards when it is your turn to hit or stand, and is more common, if offered.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
JimRockford
JimRockford
Joined: Apr 17, 2012
  • Threads: 12
  • Posts: 534
December 1st, 2012 at 5:03:35 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

Surrender is such a rare option, that its game play mechanisms are generally not known.

Surrender is usually not allowed against a dealer's Ace up card, as you can't surrender against a possible dealer's blackjack.

A semi-popular Blackjack variant, SuperFun-21, shows surrender very well, but includes "late surrender," where you can surrender after hitting and getting a bad card. Early surrender is surrendering on your first two cards when it is your turn to hit or stand.



You said you don't deal blackjack much, right?
"Truth is ever to be found in the simplicity, and not in the multiplicity and confusion of things." - Isaac Newton
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
Joined: Apr 28, 2010
  • Threads: 115
  • Posts: 5692
December 1st, 2012 at 5:06:11 PM permalink
Quote: JimRockford



You said you don't deal blackjack much, right?



I used to deal blackjack exclusively, before I learned and was assigned other games.

So, Not much Blackjack now, but I had dealt it for years, including Superfun-21, - which allowed late surrender, - and which was a Blackjack variant that was a staple at Station Casinos' properties.

Generally, I deal only dice, poker variants, and Pai Gow poker now, as the newer break-in dealers, and the dealers who only deal blackjack, are assigned to the blackjack tables. I deal it about once a week at most, and usually on a relief string.

What games do you deal?
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
Ibeatyouraces
Ibeatyouraces
Joined: Jan 12, 2010
  • Threads: 68
  • Posts: 11933
December 1st, 2012 at 6:54:54 PM permalink
deleted
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
Joined: Apr 28, 2010
  • Threads: 115
  • Posts: 5692
December 1st, 2012 at 7:26:42 PM permalink
"Late Late Surrender" is good.

What they used to call this late-late surrender on SuperFun-21 (which was the only surrender most dealers ever saw)
was "Surrender Anytime." I think this was also once used on Freebet Blackjack by Switch.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
Ibeatyouraces
Ibeatyouraces
Joined: Jan 12, 2010
  • Threads: 68
  • Posts: 11933
December 1st, 2012 at 7:48:37 PM permalink
deleted
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
Joined: Apr 28, 2010
  • Threads: 115
  • Posts: 5692
December 1st, 2012 at 8:13:14 PM permalink
Quote: Ibeatyouraces

The only place I ever got to play SF-21 was the old temporary MGM Detroit. Was the single deck version dealt from a shoe face up and was S17. One variant I actually liked.



Interesting story about Superfun-21, (and yes, it is kind of surrender-related):
The man who invented this Blackjack variant, the late Howard Grossman, was up against a self-imposed challenge: he asked himself, "Can I invent a successful new game, - a Blackjack variant, - and do it in a 24-hour period, starting now?"

He wanted a No-holds barred, unrestricted option version of blackjack, filled with the best player-advantaged options: double on any hand at any time, even on a 4-card 11; a player's blackjack ALWAYS wins and will never push, even against a dealer's surprise blackjack under a ten-card; a five card hand wins, a five card 21 wins double, AND a player can surrender at any time, and on any number of cards.

He made all these features possible by having a player's blackjack win even money, with one exception: a player's blackjack in diamonds pays 2:1.
The most player-favored rules are the "anytime surrender" and the "anytime double."

I believe The most exposure to surrender that the blackjack playing public has seen was from this game.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
AxiomOfChoice
AxiomOfChoice
Joined: Sep 12, 2012
  • Threads: 32
  • Posts: 5761
December 1st, 2012 at 11:39:30 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

T"late surrender," where you can surrender after hitting and getting a bad card, or on a dealer's ace after not showing a blackjack.
Early surrender is surrendering on your first two cards when it is your turn to hit or stand, and is more common, if offered.



That is not right.

"Early surrender" is rarely offered any more and and allows you to surrender before the dealer checks for blackjack.

"Late surrender" is the type usually offered -- the dealer checks for blackjack first, and, if he has a blackjack, you lose before you get the chance to surrender.

  • Jump to: