Backcounting

Occasionally when I enter a game after backcounting a player asks that I wait until the end of the shoe. I want to play, so my technique is to appear oblivious to the other players objection:

Player: Would you mind waiting?

Backcounter: Thanks!

Player: No, I’m asking you NOT to play. You will mess up the order of the cards. Can’t you wait until the end?

Backcounter: Yeah, I know what you mean, sorry I didn’t jump in earlier. Thanks.

Comments? Alternate ideas?

Which begs the question, are you then stealing from the player who has built up the positive count ?

Just asking ? ? ?

Quote: Buzzard

Which begs the question, are you then stealing from the player who has built up the positive count ?

Just asking ? ? ?

If that guy's a counter as well, and the only guy at the table, I would at least consider it unsportsmanlike.

If they're an idiot genuinely concerned with "the order of the cards", forget about them.


@makingbook: How about "More players means less Blackjacks for the dealer. You'll win more if I play now." Or something similarly stupid.

Quote: MakingBook

Occasionally when I enter a game after backcounting a player asks that I wait until the end of the shoe. I want to play, so my technique is to appear oblivious to the other players objection:

Player: Would you mind waiting?

Backcounter: Thanks!

Player: No, I’m asking you NOT to play. You will mess up the order of the cards. Can’t you wait until the end?

Backcounter: Yeah, I know what you mean, sorry I didn’t jump in earlier. Thanks.

Comments? Alternate ideas?

Shouldn't the cards know that you will be playing the last few hands of the shoe? By not playing, you are messing with the sacred order of the cards. ;P

Quote: Canyonero

If that guy's a counter as well, and the only guy at the table, I would at least consider it unsportsmanlike.

If they're an idiot genuinely concerned with "the order of the cards", forget about them.

What's the difference? A civilian has an advantage with a sufficiently positive count, too.

My general rule is that I respect their decision if they are playing higher than I am. If I am going to be playing blacks and they are playing purples, fine, I'll wait. But if I'm playing blacks and they are playing green, forget it.

If the casino allows mid-shoe entry and the count is advantageous, then I'm playing.
I act oblivious to player objections to avoid a confrontation or cause a scene.
Maybe it would be better to not even acknowledge the objection; just put my
chips in the circle and play?

I would never jump into a game if another counter is present.

The few real counters that I know do not play at my table and I don't play at theirs. To avoid guilt by association we don't even talk to each other away from the tables.

My wonging in is mostly after I have wonged out so I'm not new to the table. They still ask me to wait and otherwise complain but I don't wait. Believe me I have been talked about in more languages than I can count especially when I spread to two hands. Every so often I'll convince players to sit out to change the cards or suggest two hands when it goes bad but if they leave me alone I leave them alone.

Quote: Buzzard

Which begs the question, are you then stealing from the player who has built up the positive count ?

Just asking ? ? ?

Other players don't build the count, the shoe does that on it's own. :-) People entering mid-shoe "steal" rounds from existing players regardless of whether they were backcounting or just looking for patterns of wins and losses. Just because someone starts a shoe does not mean that they are entitled to it. They could leave a negative shoe but will just continue to bang away, or worse (better for you) when you sit out they often spread to multiple hands to restore the flow of the cards. The same information is available to everyone and you can't help that they choose to ignore it.

Regarding table hopping, it's bad etiquette to jump into another counters game, but if you both work out an agreement to jump into each others game you can both work simultaneously as spotters and big players for each other. When you see the other guy betting big, move from your table to his game and have him relay the count to you (or know what his bet ramps are and extrapolate the count) and ride out the shoe with him, and he does the same thing when you're betting big. Both of your win rates will go way up. You don't get the benefits of shared bankroll but both of you will get more + counts to bet into because you're both working as spotters for each other. If you don't see the other guy betting big just play a regular count game (or whatever) at your own table. This assumes that mid-shoe entry is allowed, but you know often the existing player can ask to allow a new player to enter (to help change the flow of the cards).

I've seen plenty of times where a guy playing somewhat big (mid green to light black) will give a player a chip (usually green) to wait until the end of the shoe, so as not to mess with the "flow of the cards". I'd take this every time. If there is an open spot I'm going to play, but if somebody wants to pay me my hourly wage to wait 5 minutes I'm going to take it.

Quote: winmonkeyspit3

I've seen plenty of times where a guy playing somewhat big (mid green to light black) will give a player a chip (usually green) to wait until the end of the shoe, so as not to mess with the "flow of the cards". I'd take this every time. If there is an open spot I'm going to play, but if somebody wants to pay me my hourly wage to wait 5 minutes I'm going to take it.

That's more than my hourly wage :0

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Quote: Ibeatyouraces

I say no and jump in.

Have you had any big arguments? How did you handle it?
Like you, I jump in even if someone objects. But I haven't done this
long enough to have any stories.

There is counter etiquette which says the second counter to the table should exit. Some follow it, some don't. I do, but mostly because it is to my benefit to not play with another counter. Nothing worse than 2 counters raising their bets in unison. If I have backcounted from the beginning of the shoe and know that this player has raised his bet with the count, I will honor that unwritten rule and find another opportunity. But I personally don't backcount from the beginning of a shoe. If I am entering mid shoe, it is because I walked by and saw many small cards on the felt for a round or two. In this case I wouldn't know if the other players were counters and had raised their bets or not, so I enter.

Unless the game is NMSE, I have a right to enter. The player can ask me not to, but I don't have to honor that request. I usually reply, "Yes I do mind waiting. I only have a few minutes". You won't make any friends, but when I play BJ, I am not there to make friends, I am there to make money. If the player comes back with any kind of response, I simply add, "you should have requested a private table".

Quote: MakingBook

Have you had any big arguments? How did you handle it?
Like you, I jump in even if someone objects. But I haven't done this
long enough to have any stories.

I just pretend no hablo Ingles.

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I have a story. a weekday with 3 BJ tables open at Isle in Blackhawk. One is Multiplay and full. 2 straight BJ tables with Streak Side Bet. One has several people waiting, then a closed table next to it. Then a table with a guy playing and gf watching. He is playing all 7 spots. This was 20001 and Colorado limit is $5. Have seen Asians play Multiplay 7 spots x 3 =$105 a pop.

But this white dude is playing $35 total, no streak bets. I walk over to get a seat and before I get there, he drops down to 5 spots. I
plop down at third base and put $40 cash on the felt. He goes all ballistic, WTF am I doing, etc. I say, "playing Bj, jerk " Always like the word " jerk" . People get as mad as if you call them " asshole" but you look better in court LOL

The dealer does not know what to do and the pit boss, who knows me as a regular, is in a tight spot. The jerk starts whining and I was gonna give the pit boss a break, when suddenly Barney Fife appears and takes the jerk's side. Now, I ain't going nowhere !


Barney reaches to touch my shoulder, then thinks better of it. The dealer gives me all red, I bet 2 hands and play resumes. On my last hand I have 18 against a 6 so I hit it, hoping the BJ gods are watching. Sure enough I bust with a 10 and the dealers makes 20.

Best $5 I ever spent. Decide I am gonna have to pop this guy if he does not stop whining, and well, I was a regular. So I took my chips and walked away. Later I told the pit boss he owed me a buffet comp. Waited a week before emailing corporate and complaining about me and wife not able to play there anymore as people would be playing multiple hands at BJ and we could never get a seat. Got a nice reply that that situaution was wrong and steps would be taken to ensure we could play in the future.

Hey, it was over 10 years ago, but I mean a $35 whale ROFLMAO.

I tell them it's a free country and play.

Can some one tell me odds of a Barney fife reference followed up by a post from Barney? Anyone?

Plus it is his only post other than the question he asked on his thread. LOL

The odds are 50/50 it will either happen or it won't.

:D Nice