BigJer
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November 8th, 2012 at 7:05:31 PM permalink
How rampant is it? Someone mentioned that you can tell a cheating dealer - on pitch games - is they keep their thumb on the deck.

Any comments?
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Buzzard
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November 8th, 2012 at 7:30:49 PM permalink
That a reason to not read other forums. Where would you suggest they place their thumb, up their nose ? If I win, I am great. If I lose, I was cheated. Same old story from losers !
Shed not for her the bitter tear Nor give the heart to vain regret Tis but the casket that lies here, The gem that filled it Sparkles yet
kewlj
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November 8th, 2012 at 7:45:25 PM permalink
Quote: BigJer

How rampant is it? Someone mentioned that you can tell a cheating dealer - on pitch games - is they keep their thumb on the deck.

Any comments?



The topic of cheating dealers comes up on other sites fairly often. Blackjack is game of great swings and fluctuation. Whenever some newer player, who hasn't yet realized that, hits one of these inevitable down period, their first though is that they are being cheated.

Truth is cheating by the casino is almost a thing of the past. In this day of corporate casinos, there is simply too much too lose by cheating. Plus they don't need to. They just bend the rules a little more in their favor giving themselves an even bigger house advantage, LEGALLY.

I would say the few remaining incidents of cheating are not company sponsored. Maybe a few rouge dealers still engage, probably at smaller type stores with less oversight. Maybe an occasional incident of such a rouge dealer cheating the general public, but then allowing his associate to win the extra take, so his table appears to come out just about right. I think this is a rarity. If you play enough you can spot or in the case of dealing seconds, hear anything that is out of the ordinary. Again, I wouldn't worry about cheating. It really is almost nonexistent. However, that being said, I do worry about places like Indian jurisdictions, cruise ship casinos and foreign casinos, that aren't as regulated.
BigJer
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November 8th, 2012 at 7:55:28 PM permalink
Quote: Buzzard

That a reason to not read other forums. Where would you suggest they place their thumb, up their nose ? If I win, I am great. If I lose, I was cheated. Same old story from losers !



They were mentioning this in terms of dealing seconds.
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Buzzard
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November 8th, 2012 at 8:28:35 PM permalink
Yeah , and they were right. About 50 years. John Scarne ( look him up ) actually was trying to convince gaming in Nevada to
make a shoe game mandatory. Not because of counters. this was 1961. Thorpe's book Beat the Dealer came out in 1962.
But because of cheating.

Ever hear of the Real Deal poker site? Ir had machines shuffling decks of cards, then running them over an optical reader. That web site attracted all the guys who knew random number generators were fixed. And what did they do after playing a few hundred hands theer ? Why, insist the game was rigged. LOL

Those guys on the other forum are idiots. Post the forum and thread here and I will be delighted to tell them so. I am sure they have moved on now. Probably talking about how Obama stole the election. Or about the millions of voters who were scared of the Black panthers and did not vote.
Shed not for her the bitter tear Nor give the heart to vain regret Tis but the casket that lies here, The gem that filled it Sparkles yet
brianparkes
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November 9th, 2012 at 12:35:34 AM permalink
I agree 100% with KewlJ's assessment. The risk of losing their license and their business far outweighs the potential profit from a few cheating incidents. The amount of effort it would take to keep cheating under wraps would be extensive. I wouldn't put it past tribes/cruises/foreign casinos like KewlJ said since the governing bodies for those places are not as proficient (or in some cases nonexistant).

If you are ever truly concerned that something happened, contact the gaming commission for whatever state you are in within the next day or two and they will almost always look into it.
AceTwo
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November 9th, 2012 at 5:14:55 AM permalink
There are 2 ways for a Dealer to Cheat: In Favour of the casino OR in Favour of the player.

Cheating in favour of the casino, I think is a very rare (almost non-existent issue) in the US or other jurisdictions with good regulation.
Outside the US in jurisdictions with little on no regulation, it is still rare but it does happen.
I have personally been cheated outside the US in such places 1 time for sure and suspected cheating in another 2-3 cases.
For those who have been there, one of these suspect places was the casino at the airport in Prague, Czech Republic. (no longer exists)

For a dealer to cheat, he must be very well trained in that form of cheating (ie dealing seconds). There is no incentive for a casino in the US to cheat via a dealer. The dealer must be well trained and well paid to agree to that and the dealer will always have something to expose the casino. That's a risk that no major corporation would take.


Cheating in favour of the player (ie colluding with player and sharing the profits) does happen though in the US. There have been a few stories in recent years for dealers (and pit-bosses) of been caught and sentenced and there probably more that the casino might have suspected but could not prove and just fired the dealers.
AceTwo
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November 9th, 2012 at 5:34:58 AM permalink
The way I got cheated was as follows (this I found out after the fact)
The 6 decks come (without been opened and shown) with all 312 cards existing But with segments (around 1/2 deck each) of clumped cards of cards Ace,2-6 (small cards and Ace) and other segments of Cards 7-10. Not all cards are clumped like that, just around 4 1/2 deck segments.
Playing Basic against such clumps is a complete disaster with huge HE.
Counting is even worse.

The trick was that these clumps remained in subsequent shuffles by false shuffle techniques by experienced dealer (using a certain method to identify these clumps which I will not mention here).

Note:
What I describe above has nothing to do with Clumping Theories which are complete Voodoo.
I am talking where the clumps are delibarate put in place by cheating casino and dealer.
FleaStiff
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November 9th, 2012 at 8:17:14 AM permalink
Quote: Buzzard

If I win, I am great. If I lose, I was cheated.

Yep. Same here. That multi-million dollar casino brought in a "cooler" to shuffle the cards and cheat me out of my five dollar bet.
Buzzard
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November 9th, 2012 at 8:21:17 AM permalink
Quote: FleaStiff

Yep. Same here. That multi-million dollar casino brought in a "cooler" to shuffle the cards and cheat me out of my five dollar bet.




Damn, you too ?
Shed not for her the bitter tear Nor give the heart to vain regret Tis but the casket that lies here, The gem that filled it Sparkles yet
98Clubs
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November 9th, 2012 at 9:33:00 AM permalink
The only instance of suspected cheating takes me back to 1995 in Foxwoods at a $5 table. Early in the Morning about 9:30-10AM as the busses were arriving. A YL dealing from a shoe had on 2 or three occasions a card tumble out of the shoe. Fast forward to 2005 over at H or S forums where this topic was brought up, but having to do with a shoe game. At least 3 posters there stated that if you try a 2-finger slide to deal the 2nd card from front of shoe that the first card tumbles out anyway. I bought a 4-deck shoe and tried it... yup, a card tumbles out (presumed to be top card).
Some people need to reimagine their thinking.
Buzzard
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November 9th, 2012 at 9:36:52 AM permalink
Yeah, that proves it for me. A skilled dealer is always dropping cards while dealing seconds.

And of course he knew the second card was better for the house.

Especially at a $5 table.

ROFLMAO

I have known a few card mechanics in the past. And you would have no idea you were being cheated. And I do mean NONE.
Shed not for her the bitter tear Nor give the heart to vain regret Tis but the casket that lies here, The gem that filled it Sparkles yet
98Clubs
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November 9th, 2012 at 9:50:01 AM permalink
Umm... buzzard, you need to try this. A dealer that did this using a shoe VERY QUICKLY discovered this is NOT the way to cheat. In my case the floor monkey got a phone call, and subbed the dealer.
Some people need to reimagine their thinking.
Buzzard
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November 9th, 2012 at 9:51:40 AM permalink
What part of " ROFLMAO" did you not understand ?
Shed not for her the bitter tear Nor give the heart to vain regret Tis but the casket that lies here, The gem that filled it Sparkles yet
98Clubs
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November 9th, 2012 at 9:54:22 AM permalink
I guess the the ROTF part!!! Wasn't sure how you took it. Obvious Stupid dealer trick anyway. ;o)
Some people need to reimagine their thinking.
Buzzard
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November 9th, 2012 at 10:26:05 AM permalink
Just focus on making a good bet. Screw the whiners on most forums.
Shed not for her the bitter tear Nor give the heart to vain regret Tis but the casket that lies here, The gem that filled it Sparkles yet
BigJer
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November 9th, 2012 at 10:55:20 AM permalink
Quote: Buzzard

Just focus on making a good bet. Screw the whiners on most forums.



Yeah. Maybe some of it is they got on a losing streak. BTW as for me I've been on one for the past few months but am quite sure it's just negative variance. Also, reason for posting was that the cheating issue just caught my eye and not due to any variance.
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Stefan
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August 18th, 2018 at 8:31:43 AM permalink
Need info ... please help!
BigJer
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August 18th, 2018 at 9:00:13 AM permalink
Quote: Stefan

Need info ... please help!



Go for it.
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GWAE
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August 18th, 2018 at 9:10:24 AM permalink
I would say bet 23
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Stefan
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August 18th, 2018 at 9:38:56 AM permalink
How these shoes are set up?? I mean the " cooler "shoe?one theory i heard is that aces and small cards are same size and 10s and neutral are lilttle smaller so when the dealers shuffles he clumps the small one wirh aces and 10s with neutral ... can this be possibale?thanks 4 your answers
Zcore13
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August 18th, 2018 at 9:44:47 AM permalink
Quote: Stefan

How these shoes are set up?? I mean the " cooler "shoe?one theory i heard is that aces and small cards are same size and 10s and neutral are lilttle smaller so when the dealers shuffles he clumps the small one wirh aces and 10s with neutral ... can this be possibale?thanks 4 your answers



Yes. When the dealer shuffles, you will see him turn over the cards and take out certain ones. He does this 4 or 5 times and then when he's done, he clumps them together. This happens all across the Country. The problem is, the dealer usually trains for this for a year or two. So even though he is turning over the cards, picking some out and clumping them, you never even see it.


ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
BigJer
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August 18th, 2018 at 9:50:07 AM permalink
Quote: Stefan

How these shoes are set up?? I mean the " cooler "shoe?one theory i heard is that aces and small cards are same size and 10s and neutral are lilttle smaller so when the dealers shuffles he clumps the small one wirh aces and 10s with neutral ... can this be possibale?thanks 4 your answers



The only thing I can say to that is I have decks that were used in real play. I've gotten them straight from the PB as they were just repacked. Some of them were from 6D, DD, and SD. I've never noticed anything "odd" about them.
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Stefan
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August 18th, 2018 at 10:25:26 AM permalink
Me too also i always take used decks from casino in my country that i play to practice on deck estimation at home and its looks normal.but in local casinos the game -loss win are inside sd nothing ubnormal mathematic.here in split in 3 days of game and what i say is true dealers all of them bust 20 % of the time .other 80 are making a hand.and strange thing is that they repeat the same comp of their hands even after 6 hours of ke after each shuffle the decks stay in the same order
Lovecomps
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August 18th, 2018 at 8:44:40 PM permalink
The only time that I've ever suspected that there was cheating going on was when I was on a cruise ship. I wasn't counting cards but, deck after deck over several days, it just didn't seem like there were the right number of 10's, pictures, and aces coming up. The game was auto shuffled so I never once got to see an actual deck being shuffled. I lost, but nothing critical, but it just didn't feel right.

That's the beauty, to the cruise line, of running the game in international waters-they can do what they want with a captive audience.
The best things in life are not free.
gordonm888
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August 18th, 2018 at 9:40:53 PM permalink
Traditional wisdom is that there are four categories of casinos for which cheating by the house cannot be totally ruled out

- foreign casinos (particularly in less-developed nations)
- cruise ships (in international waters, no regulatory authority has jurisdiction)
- Indian casinos that are self-regulated, specifically those Indian casinos that have no meaningful state regulation (example: North Carolina)
- online casinos

Segments of the cruise ship industry are under substantial financial pressure. If there is literally no right or wrong way to run a casino in international waters, and there is a requirement to increase revenues what do you think happens?
- slots and video games are adjusted to yield lower return to players
- electronic poker games are jiggered for larger rakes
- table minimums are raised and rules are revised (BJ pays 6:5, payout tables reduced) to increase house edge
- who knows if card decks/shoes are modified?
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Stefan
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August 19th, 2018 at 9:31:24 AM permalink
While i was in skopje doiran the hit casino hotel had a short shoe 1000%.i didnt tell them anything and the other day the table was opening 7 o clock so i was there 6.45 to see the decks and the shoe was allready load with the decks.when i ask the manager why the shoe was ready he ansewred me that 2 minites before i come another player played .he was not telling the truth
Lovecomps
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August 19th, 2018 at 11:47:04 AM permalink
Quote: gordonm888

Traditional wisdom is that there are four categories of casinos for which cheating by the house cannot be totally ruled out


Segments of the cruise ship industry are under substantial financial pressure. If there is literally no right or wrong way to run a casino in international waters, and there is a requirement to increase revenues what do you think happens?
- slots and video games are adjusted to yield lower return to players
- electronic poker games are jiggered for larger rakes
- table minimums are raised and rules are revised (BJ pays 6:5, payout tables reduced) to increase house edge
- who knows if card decks/shoes are modified?



When I was on the cruise, 6/5 hadn't been introduced to the world yet. While I did lose at BJ, it was not a losing trip because the one game that you can win at (a lot) is live poker. They make their money with higher than normal rakes but a few of the other players are always drunk (not outright, but they've had a few). A lot of them aren't that good to begin with but are part of the ship's 4000+ persons captive audience who are looking to kill an hour or two. It's an easy game to crack.
Last edited by: Lovecomps on Aug 19, 2018
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BlackjackGuy123
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August 19th, 2018 at 10:46:13 PM permalink
It's tough to say, because presumably an expert card cheat can do so without you noticing. One method to countering cheating is employ a strict loss limit. If you lose more than 6 or 7 max bets just quit a particular dealer; you can always find another table to play at. It's good to take a break after experiencing sharp negative variance anyway.

I also seek out young, attractive, female dealers. Not only are they more enjoyable to play against, I figure this is the least likely demographic to possess the skills or the inclination to cheat at cards.
Zcore13
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August 19th, 2018 at 11:35:28 PM permalink
Quote: BlackjackGuy123

It's tough to say, because presumably an expert card cheat can do so without you noticing. One method to countering cheating is employ a strict loss limit. If you lose more than 6 or 7 max bets just quit a particular dealer; you can always find another table to play at. It's good to take a break after experiencing sharp negative variance anyway.

I also seek out young, attractive, female dealers. Not only are they more enjoyable to play against, I figure this is the least likely demographic to possess the skills or the inclination to cheat at cards.



There is no demographic of dealers that purposely cheat players while dealing.


ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
TigerWu
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August 20th, 2018 at 8:21:01 AM permalink
Quote: BlackjackGuy123

I also seek out young, attractive, female dealers. Not only are they more enjoyable to play against, I figure this is the least likely demographic to possess the skills or the inclination to cheat at cards.



That's exactly what they want you think....!
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