Dear AP's

Dear AP's,

I have a few questions, if any of you would be so kind as to indulge me:

1.) Do you wong-out?

If NO: Why not?

If YES:

A.) Let's assume a six-deck shoe. At what point(s) in the shoe do you gfenerally wong-out?

B.) If the count is negative, but you are ahead in the shoe, will you generally stay in longer and wait it out, or do you have a hard-and-fast wong-out point?

2.) Do you wong-in?

If NO AND casino allows mid-shoe entry: Why not?

3.) At what casino have you been backed off the fastest, and how long did it take?

4.) Is there a casino where you have played regularly and felt no heat whatsoever?

That's all for now, thank you in advance to those who answer.

1) Yes. I go to bathroom, self serve beverages, or check my phone.
a) I usually wait for a -3 TC, or a -1 or -2 count with less than 3 decks to go. If the penetration is really good, I'm more likely to not wong out, on the hope the count recovers

2) Not at my regular casino. There aren't enough tables with the rules & demoninations I like, and the tables can get crowded. I have to play a spot to make sure there is one for me when the count gets good.

3) never been backed off. yet.

4) All over NY state & Ontario

I got backed off in 5 minutes in Vegas. It was my fault as I made a stupid comment after the dealer told the pit "checks play" when I went from $400 to $800 and pit boss told dealer to shuffle. I was 1-8 spread. I told the Pit Boss that there were a lot of aces left as I was pissed by the shuffle!!!! So stupid of a comment by me!!! There were a lot of aces left in that rich deck. ha ha ha

I went back the next day and they would not deal to me.

Is bet spread a question that you want to add?

I have a general idea of bet spreads and how much a Maximum bet should relate to total bankroll and everything like that from other posts that I have read. Most of my questions were questions for which I have not been able to discern very many specifics from posts that have naturally occurred within the BJ Forums here at WOV.


If you would like to espouse upon your personal bet spreads, percentages of bankroll in relation to session and bet, I'd be most interested in reading about that. Thank you.

I also thank you both for your answers.

NEW QUESTION

3.) Have you ever intentionally made a bad play (if you have felt heat) or a more -EV decision to throw the heat off your scent?

If YES:

A.) Was it an overtly stupid play, a slight deviation from BS, or a play that would normally be correct according to BS (such as not taking insurance) but was incorrect pursuant to the count?

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Quote: Mission146

Dear AP's,

I have a few questions, if any of you would be so kind as to indulge me:

1.) Do you wong-out?

If NO: Why not?

If YES:

A.) Let's assume a six-deck shoe. At what point(s) in the shoe do you gfenerally wong-out?

B.) If the count is negative, but you are ahead in the shoe, will you generally stay in longer and wait it out, or do you have a hard-and-fast wong-out point?

2.) Do you wong-in?

If NO AND casino allows mid-shoe entry: Why not?

3.) At what casino have you been backed off the fastest, and how long did it take?

4.) Is there a casino where you have played regularly and felt no heat whatsoever?

That's all for now, thank you in advance to those who answer.

I do not play negative counts, poor rules or poor penetration. I wong in when possible and I wong out at -1 sometimes without leaving my chair. I have used a few index plays with my base bet up for various reasons including the ones pointed out by Ibeatyouraces. There are many things to consider when determining betting spread and it will vary from place to place and even game to game. I spread as much as I feel I can get away with.

I have been backed off rather quickly at places like the El Cortez in 15 minutes. Worse than that I have been backed off a few times just for showing up. Back offs can be looked at in different ways. Does a lot of back offs mean you're not good at disguising your play? Does very few mean you're not playing to your full potential? There's a happy medium there somewhere and one size does not fit all.

It's not uncommon with today's surveillance to feel no heat. That doesn't mean there isn't any simply because the pit boss isn't scowling at you.

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Quote: Ibeatyouraces

I wong out at TC -1 also unless playing heads up. This is why I prefer no more than two others at the table. When others are present, its much easier to leave and come back to a fresh shoe. Leave while heads up and the same negative shoe is waiting for you.

I play as much heads up as I can. The policy where I am is to spread the cards when everyone leaves the table. If they see you hiding around the corner they may choose to ignore that policy and let the negative shoe sit there. It's best to save your spot and leave the immediate area.

If I walk by a table and see many small cards on the felt, and the table is not too full, I will wong in, but generally I don't do a lot of wonging in for 2 reasons. I think it would look suspicious for me to stand behind the table for 5 minutes and then jump in. Yes, you see players do that all the time, looking to see if the dealer is hot or cold, etc, but I play the same stores over and over. I have a good rotation of about 30 games, but I do see the same pit folks regularly and I don't want to give them something like that to remember me by. My choice of playing style is playing off the top but wonging out aggressively. Besides reducing the number of negative counts, this style almost assures that you will play short sessions, which is the key to longevity. I don't like cover plays. I don't believe they buy you much extra time to begin with and a counter has a very slim edge, we can't afford to give back any. Short sessions provides cover in the fact that there just isn't enough info to make any kind of determination at almost zero cost. (Yes, there is the cost of time in switching to different games. This short session style works best when you have a decent number of games and casinos in reasonably close proximity)

Being ahead or behind in the shoe has no influence on my decision to exit. I exit at a predetermined negative count (wong out) or at the first shuffle after showing my spread (rather than retreat back to a small wager). In the event that neither of these circumstances occur, I will exit after about 30 minutes, just so as not to give too much info about my play. Even if the count hasn't gone up enough to seriously jump your wager, you play hands differently at different counts and I don't want to show too much of that info.

Occasionally you will receive a quick backoff, or notice heat even before you really show anything. The chances are pretty good that previous play triggered that.

One piece of advice about seemingly receiving no heat. If you notice all the floor people and pit folks disappear, seemingly busying themselves in other areas of the pit, this may not be a green light that no one is watching. You may be being evaluated from above and they are doing so intentionally, to make you feel comfortable. They can be sneaky in that way.

I don't use cover plays. In general, it seems the dealers and floor have at best a decent grasp of BS, but not a good one. Index plays actually look like gambling cover plays.

I have spent more time at Spanish recently, as no one has any idea how to play that bloody game. You can do exactly what you want and you just look like a crazy person. Despite me seeing on the internet that the casinos know it can be beat, I have felt 0 heat at spanish tables.

Great responses from everyone!

It seems that index plays can be used if one is feeling direct heat, but just because one does not feel it does not mean it isn't there, and quite possibly means that it IS there. It also seems that people will generally wong-out when necessary, and that it is good to play with other players, just not too many, just enough so that they can finish the bad shoe for you.

However, if they spread cards when nobody is at the table, as 1BB points out, it is best to play alone as long as you are willing to get out of sight so that you can come back to a new shoe.

KewlJ seems to like to wong-in, but carefully. It seems like something that he would be likely to do at a casino that he did not intend to return to for awhile. At, "Home," casinos, Kewlj also believes in wonging-out.

KewlJ also mentioned that he doesn't like cover plays because they don't buy that much time, necessarily, and he plays short sessions. I would ask KewlJ, if there were not thirty-some casinos in your nearby vicinity, would you then throw out a base-bet cover play if the pit boss was paying you any special attention?

KewlJ also seems to believe in not showing anybody anything, and leaving at a set point in the shoe (while ahead) rather than seeing if the count turns around.

However, it seems that KewlJ is the only one necessarily playing short sessions, but that could be because there are so many nearby stores.

Also, from KewlJ's posts, I gather that he has possibly felt more heat than anyone to post prior to him. I'd like to ask everyone if anyone thinks this could be because, rather than in spite of, his aggressive wonging-out and short sessions, or do pit bosses not really have that kind of memory?

DWheatley believes that cover plays further expose the AP rather than buy him time, how would the cover-players who have posted respond to this suggestion?

I've never even seen a Spanish 21 table, unfortunately. I like to play every game I can at least once. I tried some kind of funny Texas Hold 'Em variation where you bet the Ante, and either before the Flop, Turn and River...or it may have just been Turn and River. I flopped a Straight, raised all the way (of course) just to have a dealer suck out with a Flush on the River.

I was officially done forever with that game!

1BB,

I did have a question for you that I forgot:

When you Wong-Out to get the cards spread out, do you do something like go to the bathroom and get a drink then go back, or do you do something along the lines of what a casual BJ player might do and play penny slots or something along those lines? There are machines, of course, where you can spin for literally $0.01, and I doubt anyone would pay enough attention to that to notice. Depending on where the cameras are, they might not be able to see denominations bet anyway, especially if you keep your hands in the right spots.

Quote: kewlj

One piece of advice about seemingly receiving no heat. If you notice all the floor people and pit folks disappear, seemingly busying themselves in other areas of the pit, this may not be a green light that no one is watching. You may be being evaluated from above and they are doing so intentionally, to make you feel comfortable. They can be sneaky in that way.

Hey. Shush up, you. ;)

Quote: Mission146

1BB,

I did have a question for you that I forgot:

When you Wong-Out to get the cards spread out, do you do something like go to the bathroom and get a drink then go back, or do you do something along the lines of what a casual BJ player might do and play penny slots or something along those lines? There are machines, of course, where you can spin for literally $0.01, and I doubt anyone would pay enough attention to that to notice. Depending on where the cameras are, they might not be able to see denominations bet anyway, especially if you keep your hands in the right spots.

No slots! Ever! A short walk or bathroom break will do it. It almost always stays at the dealer level. Once in a great while a dealer will get sick of shuffling and complain to the floor who may start to watch. They don't get too concerned unless you throw it in their face. More common is the dealer suggesting that the players get up to get a fresh shoe.

Surveillance has enough to do without following players around by camera for that reason. They could simply have one person do it on foot. I would be shocked if either were to happen and I don't shock easily.

Quote: 1BB

No slots! Ever! A short walk or bathroom break will do it. It almost always stays at the dealer level. Once in a great while a dealer will get sick of shuffling and complain to the floor who may start to watch. They don't get too concerned unless you throw it in their face. More common is the dealer suggesting that the players get up to get a fresh shoe.

Surveillance has enough to do without following players around by camera for that reason. They could simply have one person do it on foot. I would be shocked if either were to happen and I don't shock easily.

Why no slots? I understand the -ER, but literally at a $0.01 a spin?

The dealers will actually suggest that you get up so you can get some new cards? I bet surveillance loves that! I know AP's generally try to be conservative about tipping, but do you tip such dealers?

Quote: Mission146

Why no slots? I understand the -ER, but literally at a $0.01 a spin?

The dealers will actually suggest that you get up so you can get some new cards? I bet surveillance loves that! I know AP's generally try to be conservative about tipping, but do you tip such dealers?

If I don't have the advantage I don't play. Yes, a dealer will suggest that but I don't always know what the motive is. Could it be the end of their shift, an upcoming break or genuine concern for the player?

I do not tip dealers.

Does AP mean A professional? I'm sorry if this is a stupid question.

Quote: MalcomD

Does AP mean A professional? I'm sorry if this is a stupid question.

AP=Advantage player

Quote: MalcomD

Does AP mean A professional? I'm sorry if this is a stupid question.

Dan says it means 'A Pinhead'. But he's biased.

Quote: EvenBob

Dan says it means 'A Pinhead'. But he's biased.

That one made me blow soda out my nose.

Quote: MalcomD

Does AP mean A professional? I'm sorry if this is a stupid question.

"Advantage Player."

Quote: MalcomD

Does AP mean A professional? I'm sorry if this is a stupid question.

"Advantage Player."

Quote: MalcomD

Does AP mean A professional? I'm sorry if this is a stupid question.

To the casino it stands for 'A Parasite'.

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Quote: Mission146

Dear AP's,

I have a few questions, if any of you would be so kind as to indulge me:

1.) Do you wong-out?

If NO: Why not?

If YES:

A.) Let's assume a six-deck shoe. At what point(s) in the shoe do you gfenerally wong-out?

B.) If the count is negative, but you are ahead in the shoe, will you generally stay in longer and wait it out, or do you have a hard-and-fast wong-out point?

2.) Do you wong-in?

If NO AND casino allows mid-shoe entry: Why not?

3.) At what casino have you been backed off the fastest, and how long did it take?

4.) Is there a casino where you have played regularly and felt no heat whatsoever?

That's all for now, thank you in advance to those who answer.

1) Sometimes but not as much as I should. My home casinos are mostly small with 1 or maybe 2 blackjack tables, and they follow the "leave the cards in the shoe" policy if no one is playing. Plus I worry too much about heat from Wonging out. When I'm in Vegas I do a lot more of it given the variety of games.
A) Using KISS III I don't remember what the advised wong-out point is (Renzey does have advised counts). Again, I should be better at this. I'll definitely wong out if the count goes below 0 (which is waaay negative in KISS III). If it's later in the shoe (running count will trend positive due to the unbalanced-ness), I'll wong out sooner
B) Your results leading up to a wong-out point should really have no bearing in the decision. As with all things AP, base your decisions on the EV going forward, not on what has happened in the past.

2) Nope, I need to work on my back-count game. It's really bad, but I'm not a pro.

3) Fastest was after 3 sessions, first about an hour, second about 30 minutes a week later. On the third session, about two weeks later, I was flat-bet after one big bet cycle. No clue if they had recognized me or just evaluated my play from that one session (seems likely they had pinned me from the first 2 sessions).

4) Yes. It's confusing some times when it seems blatantly obvious what you are doing. Oh well, count your blessings and keep the sessions short!

AcesandEights also seems to concur with Wonging-Out, but as I had suspected, it's tougher when you only have a handful of nearby casinos to play your best AP game, because if you get backed-off at one casino, then that's one less you have to spread your action and the faster you will theoretically get backed off at others.

AcesandEights also concurs that you Wong-Out when the count is bad, regardless of how the cards have treated you.

***I know that may have seemed like a naive question, but the reason why I asked it is because my theory was that you might not hurt yourself too badly to stick around if you are ahead for the shoe, and I also thought that it might draw some heat to you to Wong-Out and come back later at a time your average BJ player would usually tend to stay in, i.e. when he is ahead.

It seems that the answers are mixed when it comes to Wonging-In, generally. It's probably one of the most obvious things a player could do.

"t's probably one of the most obvious things a player could do. "

And so obvious even Barney Fife might back you off. And don't forget while his gun is unloaded, Andy does allow
Barney to keep one pullet in his shirt pocket !

Quote: Mission146

AcesandEights also seems to concur with Wonging-Out, but as I had suspected, it's tougher when you only have a handful of nearby casinos to play your best AP game, because if you get backed-off at one casino, then that's one less you have to spread your action and the faster you will theoretically get backed off at others.

AcesandEights also concurs that you Wong-Out when the count is bad, regardless of how the cards have treated you.

***I know that may have seemed like a naive question, but the reason why I asked it is because my theory was that you might not hurt yourself too badly to stick around if you are ahead for the shoe, and I also thought that it might draw some heat to you to Wong-Out and come back later at a time your average BJ player would usually tend to stay in, i.e. when he is ahead.

It seems that the answers are mixed when it comes to Wonging-In, generally. It's probably one of the most obvious things a player could do.

One trait that the best blackjack players share is the ability to think on their feet, to be able to instantly analyze conditions and adapt to them. This brings us to "card eating."

There will be times in negative shoes when the pro or AP may determine that the best coarse of action is to play more than one hand to get to the shuffle more quickly. Two hands of $25 for example will use more cards than one at $50. The player could drop well below his base bet and play multiple spots to force an even sooner shuffle.

I would proceed with extreme caution on the last one because it will make your spread appear much larger.

Time to pull your cell phone out and step away from the table. LOL

Quote: buzzpaff

Time to pull your cell phone out and step away from the table. LOL

Just make sure it doesn't ring during the fake phone call.

Quote: 1BB

I do not tip dealers.

Do you tip your waiter?

I mean that sincerely, btw.

Quote: midwestgb

Do you tip your waiter?

I mean that sincerely, btw.

I tip everyone but dealers.

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