Dear Wizard, I have a question for you.

Dear Wizard,

Here in California card rooms, we have 21st century blackjack. In this blackjack let me list the rules:

Dealer Hits Soft 17
6 Deck
No Insurance Allowed
No Surrender Allowed
Double/Split Allowed All Cards
Splitting Up to Two Times
Aces Split one card only
Blackjack pays 6/5
Double allowed after splitting
Bonus "Buster Bet"
Player Hand Buster Pushes if dealer busts with higher number. If same number, player losses bet.

Let me make it clear for the last rule.

You get a hand of Hard 14 and dealer shows a 10. You hit to get 24 and bust, and the dealer plays out their hand, and shows a 10 and 6, and hits one more to get 26. Your bet pushes because the dealer has higher bust number than you. But if the dealer shows a 10 and a 4 and hits to get 24, you still lose.



So, here is my question Wizard,

If these rules are true, is it better to double on a hard 12 versus as 4-6 dealer up card. What about the basic strategy?



Thanks,
Alex

I think this game is covered on the WoO page on California Blackjack I believe that there is also a collection taken on each hand that adds to the house edge.

Quote: Ayecarumba

I think this game is covered on the WoO page on California Blackjack I believe that there is also a collection taken on each hand that adds to the house edge.

I'm sorry, but I feel you are questioning my integrity. If you took 60 seconds to glance at the rules I posted, you will know this is not California blackjack as played in many north bay casinos. South bay casinos tend to play 21st century blackjack, as I stated in the first line of the post. I have been a wizardofodd fan for too long to know this game has not been covered, hence I'm asking the wizard on some guidance. But none the less, thanks for your bump on this post.

Yes, there is a 1 dollar collection fee paid to the casino for each hand you play. Each hand has a maximum of 100 dollars as a bet. If you want to play 200, you can, but you pay 2 dollars as collection, 3 for 300, and so fourth.

Someone takes the time to respond to your post and you say they're questioning your integrity? Come on, we've already got too many overly sensitive people on this forum. You won't get a lot of responses if that's how you feel. Welcome.

I remember playing a few hands, in Los Angeles many years ago, an old version of California Blackjack. However I think it was single deck where AA was the best hand and it had similar busting rules. Accordingly the strategy was to hit higher hard and soft hands.

Notwithstanding that I'm guessing if you had (say) 60% of standoff with 22, then it is just worth doubling 12 - essentially you were going to hit it and have greater than 50% chance of winning.

Quote: 1BB

Someone takes the time to respond to your post and you say they're questioning your integrity? Come on, we've already got too many overly sensitive people on this forum. You won't get a lot of responses if that's how you feel. Welcome.

If a post is not constructive, then yes, the only reason I can think of is that they want an extra post count on their membership or they are questioning my integrity. Thank you for adding drama to this thread.

Quote: tearbleu

If a post is not constructive, then yes, the only reason I can think of is that they want an extra post count on their membership or they are questioning my integrity. Thank you for adding drama to this thread.

I think Ayecarumba was trying to steer you in the right direction,and I do not think he was questioning your integrity.You are way to sensitive,you should come out of your Mommys basement more often and see the real world.

Artichoke Joes pays 3:2 and allows surrender.

Quote: tearbleu

If a post is not constructive, then yes, the only reason I can think of is that they want an extra post count on their membership or they are questioning my integrity. Thank you for adding drama to this thread.

You bring up a good point. Post count seems to be very important to some members. It's definitely quantity over quality for a few and if we eliminated the childish "class clown" posts there wouldn't be much left for these people.

I would like to see as an added feature to this site, the average posts per day of our members. I think it would be interesting.

Limit troll activity? Take down the post count for openers. Limit subject matter to Gambling and Vegas. You hate God? We get that but it doesn't belong here and I don't want to learn Spanish.

Quote: DeMango

... and I don't want to learn Spanish.

Then do what I do and ignore that thread.

You should also take note of who is involved in that thread before you make such disparaging comments.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Then do what I do and ignore that thread.

You should also take note of who is involved in that thread before you make such disparaging comments.

I do ignore the thread, thank you, but it and many others take up space that may make us players miss more important gaming topics.
I cannot note who is involved in a thread I choose to ignore.

how is it taking up space?
have you run into some sort of bandwidth problem?
considering this is a free site and the owner of the site has a very liberal policy about what is discussed here,
i don't think it is too much to have to do a little work to find the topics that interest you.

deleted

Hey Alex,

Which casino has those rules without insurance or surrender? It's been a while since I played out there, but those rules are pretty standard to help cut back into the effect of the rake. Are you sure they're not offered?

Either way, the answer to your question is no. It's not better to double a hard 12. You still get stuck with a 13-16 (or 22) too often when the dealer does not bust, and it's a losing proposition.

Cheers,
RDW

Quote: DeMango

I cannot note who is involved in a thread I choose to ignore.

Sure you can.

The name of the original poster is listed right under the thread topic. The name of the author of the most recent post is to the right. For that thread, the most recent author is usually one of three names, one of which is the original poster.

And in this case, the original poster deserves a lot more respect than you're giving him.

"I'm sorry, but I feel you are questioning my integrity."

I am questioning yours. I think we have seen the last of you. No great loss !

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Sure you can.

The name of the original poster is listed right under the thread topic. The name of the author of the most recent post is to the right. For that thread, the most recent author is usually one of three names, one of which is the original poster.

And in this case, the original poster deserves a lot more respect than you're giving him.

Actually, the ability to ignore a thread or even a complete forum would be useful, rather than individual posters.

As the forum has a "Most recent" posts section, that tends to be what drives people to what they want to read when browsing the site. Being able to switich off an entire section, would be helpful in driving eyeballs to various areas.

Quote: rdw4potus

Hey Alex,

Which casino has those rules without insurance or surrender? It's been a while since I played out there, but those rules are pretty standard to help cut back into the effect of the rake. Are you sure they're not offered?

Either way, the answer to your question is no. It's not better to double a hard 12. You still get stuck with a 13-16 (or 22) too often when the dealer does not bust, and it's a losing proposition.

Cheers,
RDW

Both are not offered and accepted. I'm talking about a card room down in southbay. I understand that doubling on 12 is not a good idea but the rule that is a game changer is that dealer busts higher than you will have your busting hand refunded

Quote: tearbleu

the rule that is a game changer is that dealer busts higher than you will have your busting hand refunded

That rule is the same in 21st Century BJ and California BJ. As was previously pointed out, the Wizard already analyzed California BJ, and already showed that doubling on 12 is a bad idea, even with that rule factored in. You seem unwilling to accept that. Go ahead and double your 12s, then...

Quote: rdw4potus

That rule is the same in 21st Century BJ and California BJ. As was previously pointed out, the Wizard already analyzed California BJ, and already showed that doubling on 12 is a bad idea, even with that rule factored in. You seem unwilling to accept that. Go ahead and double your 12s, then...

There is no joker in 21st century blackjack. I really wish people will stop questioning my integrity to provide a simple question that has not been answered. For god sakes, what is happening to this country? Will people learn to read?

Quote: tearbleu

There is no joker in 21st century blackjack. I really wish people will stop questioning my integrity to provide a simple question that has not been answered. For god sakes, what is happening to this country? Will people learn to read?

The joker doesn't change the odds enough to result in a different play decision. At this point, it's safe to say that it's not your integrity that people are questioning...

" I really wish people will stop questioning my integrity " People will as soon as you show you actually have some !

Quote: tearbleu

I really wish people will stop questioning my integrity...

I feel a Princess Bride quote coming on. :)

Quote: MonkeyMonkey

I feel a Princess Bride quote coming on. :)

Inconceivable!!

Quote: rdw4potus

The joker doesn't change the odds enough to result in a different play decision. At this point, it's safe to say that it's not your integrity that people are questioning...

the joker does not change the odds? lol. there you are.

Quote: tearbleu

the joker does not change the odds? lol. there you are.

Not enough to change this decision. Not NEARLY enough to change this decision. But you're obviously not going to believe what anyone tells you. So just (shut up and) do whatever you want.

Quote: thecesspit

Actually, the ability to ignore a thread or even a complete forum would be useful, rather than individual posters.

As the forum has a "Most recent" posts section, that tends to be what drives people to what they want to read when browsing the site. Being able to switich off an entire section, would be helpful in driving eyeballs to various areas.

Bingo!

This might shock some folks, but I'm here for gaming information, and I'll wager I'm not the only one.

Quote: DeMango

Bingo!

This might shock some folks, but I'm here for gaming information, and I'll wager I'm not the only one.

You may be on the wrong forum. I have never seen a thread for advantage play at Bingo. I may be wrong , but
I bet my dauber I am not.

Quote: buzzpaff

You may be on the wrong forum. I have never seen a thread for advantage play at Bingo. I may be wrong , but
I bet my dauber I am not.

You owe me one dauber :

Bingo AP thread

California No Bust BJ v 21st Century BJ
If you look at California No Bust BJ described and analysed by the Wizzard you will see that it is similar BUT not the same with 21st Century BJ as you describe it.
BUT, you can use the elements of the 2 games that are the same to have some insight as to Basic Strategy.

NO BUST
The no Bust rules are the same in both games. (see point 14 and 15 in Wizzard analysis).
That means that any decision relating to the no Bust will be similar. These are primarily the Hit v Stand decisions.
So in the Wizzard game, you HIT all 12s, 13s and 14s.
BUT, in that game there is also a Joker which means that there is a small difference between the 2 games in th Hit v Stand decision (you get the Joker 1/53 of the time when you draw which results in a 21 a most probable win)

MY ANALYSIS FOR 21st CENTURY bj
I have done a quick analysis for the game you describe.
I have used S17 probabilities of delear getting 22-26 instead of the H17 as I do not have in my database those. This should not make any difference in most cases except in marginal calculations.

My results show that:
HIT 12 always
HIT 13 always
Regarding 14 I found no Hit decisioons favourable for 2-6.

One example of calculations
13 v 6
Stand Ev = -15.4%
Normal game Hit Ev = -23.7%

When you Hit you get
22 = 1/13 of the times
23 = 4/13 of the times

Dealer probs of Busting for Upcard 6 are:
22= 8.5%
23= 8.2%
24-26= 25.6%

Probability of Busting with lower than Dealer Busting = 1/13 x (8.2%+25.6%) + 4/13 x 25.6% = 10.5%
That means that 10.5% of the time you will Bust with lower than the dealer Bust.
So in those case you save 1 Bet
Extra Ev = 10.5%
Hit Ev for this game= -23.7% + 10.5% = -13.2% which is BETTER than the Stand Ev of -15.4%
So decision is to Hit.


TOTAL EV
It needs a lot of work to calculate the Ev of the game.
I estimate that the No Bust rules has at least 1.5% positive effect just taking into account first 2 card decisions for Hard Hands from 12-16.
But the rule also jas positive effect on Soft Hands, on Hands from 11 and below becasue of subsequent Hits etc.
The total effect of the rule could be around 2.5% (very rough estimate)

But you also have BJ paying 6:5 which is -1.4%
And the -1% on Commission for $100 bets.
So I expect these more ot less cancell out leaving the game a usual Ev of BJ or around -0.5%.