PaiGowDan has a twin?
"He doesn't create the advantage, he just recognizes the advantage," he said.
Casinos, of course, view it differently.
"We're in the business of providing entertainment. We make a profit. If something manipulates that in an ill-begotten way, that's not fair," Mr. Sullivan said.
Relevant article about card counters in Pennsylvania here.
Quote: IbeatyouracesQuote: teddysWhere the professional card counter has an edge is knowing when to wager larger amounts on certain hands. While card counting can give a player an advantage, Mr. Joseph doesn't consider it to be cheating.
"He doesn't create the advantage, he just recognizes the advantage," he said.
Casinos, of course, view it differently.
"We're in the business of providing entertainment. We make a profit. If something manipulates that in an ill-begotten way, that's not fair," Mr. Sullivan said.
Relevant article about card counters in Pennsylvania here.
So the casinos manipulate the payoff odds to make a profit. Now thats not fair.
If I want entertainment, I'll play the game on my computer for free.
I'm there to make a profit too.
Actually, gamblers are there to seek a win, and in the process experience entertaiment, and where one PAYS to play, - not to expect to make a profit, although they can at times. It's the chance to make a profit, not the guarantee, that is the juice of gambling.
1. Anyone who honestly expects personal entertainment or recreation to be a valid source of personal income or profitable is deluded, and will fail.
2. Anyone who doesn't play by the rules of the game is committing some form of cheating, whether technically legal, illegal, or grey area. Anyone who plays by the rules is fine. And casinos will let you know if you are out of bounds by backing you off, expelling you ("86'ed"), or even detaining someone for a casino fraud arrest. And they have a right to do this, as does any for-profit business who protects their business interests. Steal something from an electronics outlet and claim it was just an advantage play won't cut it either.
3. Casinos and game designers don't "manipulate" payouts, they incorporate a house edge of a small percentage to cover the expenses of operations; really now, who would deal to "delights" like you guys all night for freakin' free? Who would expect or demand this right? And pay for the lights and security for you guys? Expecting to have no house edge is akin to demanding that our restaurants, movie houses, and the like also provide free entertainment. Bullshit, Not happening. And trying to skirt this service fee by breaking the house rules is a valid no-no, period, end of story, doesn't matter what the business or service is. Follow the house rules, or stay out.
Trust me, if you want reliable income from gambling, get a job as a dealer, a casino manager, a successful game designer, or a casino executive. If you want to play with a chance - not a guarantee - of a winning, then do come on down.
I am in this business, and believe me, I have a lot of twins, some of whom are former advantage players ("APs").
Quote: PaigowdanActually, gamblers are there to seek a win,
Exactly. So, if you know that at the given point in time you have, say, a 2% advantage, but intentionally bet low, to avoid winning "too much" ... Is that "seeking a win" or is it just plain stupidity?
Basically, your position is that anyone, who refuses to be stupid and ignore the advantage they have is a cheater. In your world, the player is not there to "seek a win", they are there to subsidize the casino.
Quote: Paigowdan
2. Anyone who doesn't play by the rules of the game is committing some form of cheating, whether technically legal, illegal, or grey area. Anyone who plays by the rules is fine.
There is no "gray area". Violating rules of the game is illegal (yes, "technically"). If you do that, you are committing a crime.
Consequently (pure logic), if you are not doing anything illegal, you are playing by the rules, and are "fine".
Quote: Paigowdanreally now, who would deal to "delights" like you guys all night for freakin' free? Who would expect or demand this right? And pay for the lights and security for you guys?
Well ... perhaps, someone who feels it makes sense to them ... financially or otherwise. A casino can easily eliminate advantage play possibilities in black jack, if they wanted to. But they don't. Who would do that you ask? Well ... they would apparently.
Quote:Expecting to have no house edge is akin to demanding that our restaurants, movie houses, and the like also provide free entertainment.
Nobody expects or demands no house edge. But every now and then a situation arises (weather via a promotion, a certain state of a black jack deck or a payout table on a VP machine). When it does, and you know about it, it is stupid to ignore it. Just like it would be stupid to insist on paying for a dessert in a restaurant, when you have a coupon to get it free. Not "responsible" or "honorable" - just plain stupid.
Imagine a casino offering a tic-tac-toe game. The house makes moves at random. You are asked to do the same. Technically, you can put your cross wherever you want, but it is "a valid no-no" to consider the consequences of your move. If you see two zeroes in a row, and try to put a cross into the next cell to avoid losing, or if you see two crosses in the row, and put the third one to complete the line while there are other cells you could have used instead ... it's a valid play, but if you do it several times, it "raises flags", and you will get backed off and photographed.
Quote: weaselmanQuote: PaigowdanActually, gamblers are there to seek a win,
Exactly. So, if you know that at the given point in time you have, say, a 2% advantage, but intentionally bet low, to avoid winning "too much" ... Is that "seeking a win" or is it just plain stupidity?
Basically, your position is that anyone, who refuses to be stupid and ignore the advantage they have is a cheater. In your world, the player is not there to "seek a win", they are there to subsidize the casino.
No: there are advantages to be taken of with the rules of play, and advantages that are out of bounds of the rule of play. It's not if something is of smart advantage, - it is if it within the house rules of play or not: Legit play, or illegitmate play, not clever or smart.
Quote: weaselmanThere is no "gray area".
Yes there are gray areas, and this area involves an area known as 'claiming', - where a supervisor makes a call on a questionable bet resolution, for your information. For example, if a crap shooter throws in four green ($100) after the dice are out to the shooter, and says "Red", - if a seven hits:
He may get paid $500 and down, if he is known to make green or black action bets on the any-7.
He won't get paid if he is not known for these bets, and would otherwise claim, "I was just asking for change to a stack of red chips" if a 7 was not rolled, but if a 7 was rolled, he will demand to be paid $400 plus still up. This is unquestionably a gray area that is often utilized by shot-takers, and is an area that is resolved by a supervisor call. [Oh, I see...]
Quote: weaselmanViolating rules of the game is illegal (yes, "technically"). If you do that, you are committing a crime.
Consequently (pure logic), if you are not doing anything illegal, you are playing by the rules, and are "fine".
No.
You may be obeying the law perfectly fine when breaking the rules or convention of a game (no one gets arrested for late betting in craps, or making obvious false claims to see if they can get away with this crap, or cheating at monopoly, although that is still cheating), but if you are not obeying house rules of game play, you are NOT fine, and can be backed off and thrown out on your ass, in which case you are "not fine," but also "not in jail." There is actually a difference between what is acceptable by state law, and what is acceptable by a casino house for play at the premises, and the law WILL back up the casino house up under the right to refuse service. In other words, you can be shown the door of a casino out to the street, without being shown the door of a jail cell, - and still be "not fine" to play.
But they don't. Who would do that you ask? Well ... they would apparently.Quote: weaselmanA casino can easily eliminate advantage play possibilities in black jack, if they wanted to.
Quote: weaselmanNobody expects or demands no house edge.
Utter Bullshit. Not only do people complain, whine, bitch and moan about the house edge [this forum site is but one prime example], they often try to defeat the house edge through actions that are against the house play rules, and sometimes against the law.
Quote: weaselmanBut every now and then a situation arises (weather via a promotion, a certain state of a black jack deck or a payout table on a VP machine). When it does, and you know about it, it is stupid to ignore it.
Sure. Take full advantage of it within the rules of the promotion, in fact play your ass off. This is a known and allowed "player advantage" promotion in which the expected losses are charged against marketing and promotion, we do it all the time.
Quote: weaselmanJust like it would be stupid to insist on paying for a dessert in a restaurant, when you have a coupon to get it free. Not "responsible" or "honorable" - just plain stupid.
I agree with you, you'd be foolish not to use your comps, your free bet tickets, to play during great promotions, and the like. I do so all the time. This is perfectly legit advantage play that reduces your costs and the house edge, and I am fine with it. In fact, I do it myself all the time: comps, player-advantge promotions, free bet tickets, etc. What is NOT fine is considering such things as card-counting when against the house rules, hole-carding, making false claims, capping and pinching bets, as considered somehow legitimate or fair play by lumping that in legitimate offers or strategy.
Quote: weaselmanImagine a casino offering a tic-tac-toe game. The house makes moves at random. You are asked to do the same. Technically, you can put your cross wherever you want, but it is "a valid no-no" to consider the consequences of your move. If you see two zeroes in a row, and try to put a cross into the next cell to avoid losing, or if you see two crosses in the row, and put the third one to complete the line while there are other cells you could have used instead ... it's a valid play, but if you do it several times, it "raises flags", and you will get backed off and photographed.
Bad analogy. Your claim here is to say that ANY process stemming from "thinking is an allowed process," when then processes or maneovers fall into separate catagories after "thought of": allowed and not allowed processes. You can devise a method of marking cards that cannot be detected by the casino, and it would be illegal or against the rules if caught, and also justify THAT by saying, "thinking is not against the rules, because I thought of using that method, so therefore this process is legal..."
With Blackjack, blackjack was initial thought to be uncountable, until Edward O. Thorpe showed us otherwise; by then, Blackjack was too entrenched to be removable from casinos, so a subsequent house rule of "counting is not allowed" was implimented, to keep the game available to non-counters, and to counters who apparently do not get caught. The fact that you disagree with the later implemented house rule by saying "using your brain is not illegal," that's immaterial, as you can also use your brain to embezzle, or rob a bank, or to defraud your investors, etc. So, while using your brain is not illigal or against the rules, it is not the issue. It is the actions and processes that are either in accordance with house rules, or that disobey house rules, regardless of the fact that thought or consideration may have actually been used prior to committing these actions. Basic strategy is using your brain, as is card counting or clever hole-carding, but it is the action of applying either an acceptable process or procedure, or applying an unapproved process or procedure, is the issue at hand. Make this distinction.
Quote: IbeatyouracesI'm not going to quote everythig but I can tell you that for a fact, card counting is NOT against the house rules in every casino. Maybe in Fiesta Henderson, but not everywhere.
In Nevada it is, it is not in Atlantic City. But in places where you can count, you don't go in with a countable situation, I guarantee you that. If you can give us a list where you are openly ALLOWED to count, AND where the games are "countable" (providing stats on cut-card penetration and games rules to substantiate this), we'd be real interested.
Quote: IbeatyouracesSome places just aren't worried about it.
We're not worried about it either. It's just against the rules.
Quote: IbeatyouracesAnd I will state this quite clear one more time, for me, gambling is not fun.
That is you. Casinos and Gambling outlets are officially entertainment/hospitality outlets, period, end of story, your experience is your own feelings, the industry's status is what it is: entertainment/hospitality.
Also - then why do you do it? What IS gambling to you? Work? A job? An addiction? If it isn't a rewarding or positive experience, don't do it.
Quote: IbeatyouracesBetting money is not entertainmemt. If anyone falls for these lies, thats your own fault when you lose.
Betting money, or gambling, is done as entertainment, a recreation. If it is not done for this reason, something is pathologically wrong.
There is no medical or professional reason to gamble at all.
Quote: Paigowdan
No: there are advantages to be taken of with the rules of play, and advantages that are out of bounds of the rule of play.
We are only talking about the former. The latter is illegal and should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.
Quote:Yes there are gray areas, and this area involves an area known as 'claiming', - where a supervisor makes a call on a questionable bet resolution, for your information.
They are not gray at all. Just because you have a question about something, it does not mean the area is gray.
It is a felony to cheat in a casino, there is nothing "gray" about it. If you are a cheater, you should be prosecuted. If you cannot be prosecuted, you are not a cheater.
Quote:For example, if a crap shooter throws in four green ($100) after the dice are out to the shooter, and says "Red", - if a seven hits:
Nope. Not gray. You have to make a bet before a certain point. If you don't, the casino is not obligated to honor it. It may still choose to, if the dealer likes you, but it does not have to. Nothing "gray" about it, clear as day.
Quote:You may be obeying the law perfectly fine when breaking the rules or convention of a game (no one gets arrested for late betting in craps
Late betting is not breaking the rules as long as you don't do it purposefully with an intention to cheat, and kowingly lie about it, insisting on getting paid. If you try that and get caught, you will get arrested.
Quote:or making obvious false claims to see if they can get away with this crap
People rarely get arrested for shoplifting too. It does not make it legal.
Both police officers and DA office have discretion when it comes to decision of who should be arrested and/or prosecuted. If you don't get arrested, it does not mean, that what you are doing is legal.
If you cannot be prosecuted, that does.
Quote:or cheating at monopoly, although that is still cheating)
Cheating is not illegal. Cheating against a casino is.
Quote:, but if you are not obeying house rules of game play, you are NOT fine, and can be backed off
Yes, you can. You are still fine though.
Quote:and thrown out on your ass, in which case you are "not fine," but also "not in jail."
Well, that would be assault, and it would land the casino moron that decides to do that in jail, not me.
Quote:There is actually a difference between what is acceptable by state law, and what is acceptable by a casino house for play at the premises, and the law WILL back up the casino house up under the right to refuse service.
Yes. I don't dispute their right to refuse service to me or to anyone else.
My position is that I have the right to play within the official rules of the game as long as they let me. They have a right to stop me whenever they want.
Quote:they often try to defeat the house edge through actions that are against the house play rules, and sometimes against the law.
No. We are not talking about criminals.
Quote:Sure. Take full advantage of it within the rules of the promotion, in fact play your ass off.
That's exactly what I do.
You asked who would do that, I answered your question, that's all.
Quote:I agree with you, you'd be foolish not to use your comps, your free bet tickets, to play during great promotions, and the like. I do so all the time.
But to play with your eyes closed in order to not win too much ... that is not foolish? Actually, I agree with you.
It's not foolish. It is just plain stupid.
Quote:Bad analogy. Your claim here is to say that ANY process stemming from "thinking is an allowed process," when then processes or maneovers fall into separate catagories after "thought of": allowed and not allowed processes.
Huh?
Quote:You can devise a method of marking cards that cannot be detected by the casino, and it would be illegal or against the rules if caught, and also justify THAT by saying, "thinking is not against the rules, because I thought of using that method, so therefore this process is legal..."
Come on. You are clearly smarter than this.
Thinking is not against the rules. Marking cards is. What do you not understand? If you tamper with the cards, and get caught, you'll be arrested, even if you are an imbecile, incapable of thinking. It has nothing to do with thinking whatsoever.
The rules of the game can forbid the player to mark cards, to use electronic devices, to talk, to drink, to stand, to place hands on the table ...
But you can't forbid the player to use their brain. The idea is asinine.
Quote:With Blackjack, blackjack was initial thought to be uncountable,
So? They made a mistake ... and now I have to have a lobotomy?
If you think this is the problem with my analogy, let me fix it. Consider the tic-tac-toe game as before, but imagine that they "initially" thought, that the first player always wins.
Quote:by then, Blackjack was too entrenched to be removable from casinos,
You are not being honest. There is no need to remove BJ from casinos, and you know it. Just install as CSM, or cap the maximum bet, or require flat betting or do implement combination of these and a number of other available measures.
Any casino that would really want to get rid of the counters is perfectly able to do that tomorrow. The bottom line is - they don't really want to.
Quote:The fact that you disagree with the later implemented house rule by saying "using your brain is not illegal,"
That's not what I am saying. I am saying that attempting to forbid a person to use their brain is idiotic.
Quote: Paigowdan2. Anyone who doesn't play by the rules of the game is committing some form of cheating, whether technically legal, illegal, or grey area. Anyone who plays by the rules is fine. And casinos will let you know if you are out of bounds by backing you off, expelling you ("86'ed"), or even detaining someone for a casino fraud arrest. And they have a right to do this, as does any for-profit business who protects their business interests. Steal something from an electronics outlet and claim it was just an advantage play won't cut it either.
Dan, no matter how many times you repeat yourself, card counting isn't cheating. Detecting and preventing card counting may be part of a casino operator's policy, but that's a policy decision, not a legal one: casinos are free to allow card counters to play if they determine it's best for business. Casinos are *not* free to allow actual cheating to occur or they risk losing their licenses. Counting is not a crime the way cheating, stealing chips or stealing electronics are crimes.
In fact, if you got your casino's permission, you (as a dealer) could actually announce the count before each hand of blackjack and even suggest to players how much to bet. This could actually be a great promotion: "don't worry about card counting, we'll do it for you". Most players will flat bet anyway so you won't lose any EV, and even if some of the players play with +1% EV, that's a trivial cost at a $5 table compared to the value of getting more people in the door. (FYI, if you run this promotion at the Fiesta, I get the credit - and a meeting with your GM. Email me if you think it has legs and I'll go over the marketing/ROI numbers with you.)
But marketing aside, you wouldn't be able to pull this off if card counting were cheating. Cheating is illegal and you'd lose your license.
Quote: MathExtremistDan, no matter how many times you repeat yourself, card counting isn't cheating.
Card counting certainly does not violate the statute on criminal cheating, on this much we all agree. But come on guys, the casinos get to determine the rules of the games. They are entitled to make any rule they want, you are keep walking if you don't like it. If they make it clear that one of the rules is that you are not allowed to count cards, then you are breaking the rules if you do it. In a gambling game, we call it 'cheating' when you break the rules to your own benefit. What is so crazy about this?
Quote: MathExtremistThis could actually be a great promotion: "don't worry about card counting, we'll do it for you".
It could be better than you think. Many players distrust basic strategy cards, because they believe the claim they're a casino-backed device to take your money. These same people may come to think the same of card counting. I can imagine superstitious and conspiracy-minded (to eb charitable) players raising their bets when the count is agaisnt them.
He's right, guys. My hands start to tremble if I haven't crushed any games in the past 72 hours or so. Fortunately, my hands are very steady right now.Quote: PaigowdanBetting money, or gambling, is done as entertainment, a recreation. If it is not done for this reason, something is pathologically wrong.
Quote: MathExtremist
But marketing aside, you wouldn't be able to pull this off if card counting were cheating. Cheating is illegal and you'd lose your license.
I find this hard to believe. Are you saying a promotion like "the dealer will show his holecard every third hand" would be illegal? If so, how come "first card is an ace" coupon isn't in the same category? I mean, if I pulled an ace from my sleeve, and pretended it was my first card, that would be cheating, wouldn't it?
I would think, cheating is only cheating while it is done under covers (Dan, for you specifically, I'd like to clarify: this does not mean that everything done under covers is cheating) and false pretenses.
You make an interesting point. My reply will clear things up, as well as punch a great big hole in M.E.'s argument.
The promo of a dealer playing face up, or a free ace coupon is not "cheating" but the casino giving you an exemption to play under different rules.
If a casino decides that at one table, the dealer will count for you, but at another table says player counting is not allowed, the two tables are playing under different rules, and a card counter found at Table B could be 86'd as fast as a player pulling an ace from his sleeve. (Well, maybe playing an ace up a sleeve would be handled differently since that's a felony.)
M.E. -
I love the concept, but aren't you the same math person that recently blew a hole in my concept that a casino using a roulette wheel that had no zeroes would still make money? Seems like the same argument could be used for your idea.
Quote: weaselmanI find this hard to believe. Are you saying a promotion like "the dealer will show his holecard every third hand" would be illegal? If so, how come "first card is an ace" coupon isn't in the same category? I mean, if I pulled an ace from my sleeve, and pretended it was my first card, that would be cheating, wouldn't it?
I would think, cheating is only cheating while it is done under covers (Dan, for you specifically, I'd like to clarify: this does not mean that everything done under covers is cheating) and false pretenses.
I'm not sure what you're saying -- did you misread my post? I said "you (a casino) wouldn't be able to count cards for the players *if* it were cheating." It's not cheating so there's no problem. A promotion like showing the dealer's hole card, or giving a free ace coupon aren't cheating either, they're promotional rule changes. Cheating has a very clear statutory definition, and the relevant piece here is the part about altering the result of the game. If the rules include a free ace, that becomes part of the results and nothing is changing. If the rules don't include a free ace and you pull one out of your sleeve, that does alter the results.
Quote: DJTeddyBearI love the concept, but aren't you the same math person that recently blew a hole in my concept that a casino using a roulette wheel that had no zeroes would still make money? Seems like the same argument could be used for your idea.
I'm not suggesting that the BJ game would be profitable in terms of EV, though it might still be due to poor strategy; I'm suggesting that it would be an acceptable loss leader. That's what promotions usually are: marketing spends money to get players in the door. The premise is that the marketing investment will yield +ROI overall, but it's still an investment. The investment with the BJ promotion "don't count, we'll do it for you" would be the theoretical loss from counting.
So no, a roulette wheel with no zeros won't be profitable. It might form the basis of a profitable promotion, however. Given that, I don't think playing at a roulette wheel with no zeroes would be as enticing as playing at a blackjack table where the dealer announces the count.
Quote: MathExtremistI'm not suggesting that the BJ game would be profitable in terms of EV, though it might still be due to poor strategy; I'm suggesting that it would be an acceptable loss leader. That's what promotions usually are: marketing spends money to get players in the door. The premise is that the marketing investment will yield +ROI overall, but it's still an investment. The investment with the BJ promotion "don't count, we'll do it for you" would be the theoretical loss from counting.
So no, a roulette wheel with no zeros won't be profitable. It might form the basis of a profitable promotion, however. Given that, I don't think playing at a roulette wheel with no zeroes would be as enticing as playing at a blackjack table where the dealer announces the count.
I think "don't count, we'll do it for you" is brilliant. You could vary the count method also to alter the edge. I think the casino could still make money since most people will flat bet anyhow. For those who do increase their bets, the casino may be enticing them to overbet their bankroll as well. Once a player starts doing that, variance will be his doom.
On roulette, you could offer a push on all zeroes at a certain bet and a push on zero/double zero at an even higher bet, but maybe at only the single number bets for the highest volatility. This might have the same effect and could still be profitable.
So I walk up to a SD bj game and bet the first 3 spots. It is a newly shuffled beck. My first hand is 2,5. I see the dealer has an Ace.
The dealers offers insurance. Then he adds that I can look at my other hands to decide if I want to insure them. My other 2 hands
are 3,5 and 2,4. If I buy insurance, am I cheating ??????
Buzz Paff
Quote: buzzpaffPaigowdan : " as using your brains that are within the rules of the game are a-okay-doakey."
So I walk up to a SD bj game and bet the first 3 spots. It is a newly shuffled beck. My first hand is 2,5. I see the dealer has an Ace.
The dealers offers insurance. Then he adds that I can look at my other hands to decide if I want to insure them. My other 2 hands
are 3,5 and 2,4. If I buy insurance, am I cheating ??????
Buzz Paff
It means you are wise.
Quote: buzzpaffStill waiting for the ultimate decider of truth to answer !
You know what he'll say. Doesn't seem worth the hassle to spam taunt, in light of EB's absence.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/general/10126-dream-dealer/4/
I remember this link and thoght it needed to be reposted. Paigowdan has strong beliefs and convictions. At the end of the day no one wins.
Can't we all just get along? As AcesAndEights says WHATS THE POINT?
CAN'T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sONfxPCTU0
Dan your no innocent bystander either, you continually feed into this. I think you enjoy it.
Quote: Gabes22... no matter how crass it might sound we really don't care how he feels on the issue because his goal is in opposition to ours.
When I met Wiz, I asked him specifically whether he was bothered by my presence on the forum (I am in game protection, "the Sheriff", as buzz would say ;)). Seeing as this is mostly a pro-gambler site, I was worried if he felt a certain way about me and those like myself being here. We talked for a bit, and nailed on the head what I think are most peoples opinions on the matter (at least they're mine and Wiz's). AP vs Protection is a lot like the old Looney Toons cartoons featuring George and Ralph. You know, the sheepdog and the coyote. They come to work at the same place, can share small talk, and be civil. Once they punch the clock, though, their jobs are completely opposed to each other. In the cartoon, the dog flogs the coyote for a bit, the coyote drops a piano on the dog's head. In real life, we engage in a battle of wits. Sometimes I win and you get id'ed and booted, sometimes you win and walk out with a few grand. In the end, who cares? You're no more a scoundrel than I am a failure. We are what we are, that's life, it's FUN. What's the big deal?
I just thought I'd share that. It amazes me, the sheer number of "Dan vs AP" arguements this site holds. It's very "mayo vs Miracle Whip" ;)
I know he enjoys it. LOL But that does not make him right.
I guess I just don't see the issue. The casino purposely leaves itself vulnerable, so some people obviously take advantage. We try to catch them, they try to stay uncaught. That's it. I don't know why there's name calling, and I don't know why some people take such offense from someone calling them a name on the internet. It's all rather silly.
The boogey man lives.
OP here. You are right on. The reason I posted the quote and the article was because the journalist's quotes were an EXACT REFLECTION of the dialogue that goes on here between PaiGowDan and the gambler/AP crew. That's not an aberration.Quote: Gabes22As a former car dealer, I understand dan's points. Everyone here entering a casino is looking to win, just like when people were buying a car, everyone was looking for a great deal, however I had to feed myself and my wife and so must dan. Dan's mistake is not understanding that his interests conflict with our interests, and no matter how crass it might sound we really don't care how he feels on the issue because his goal is in opposition to ours.
98 out of 100 casino employees will say card counting is unfair, cheating, and evil, and the house should do all they can to protect themselves from it.(*)
98 out of 100 gamblers will say card counting is fine, a legitimate playing technique, and not illegal or immoral.
That's just the way the cookie crumbles.
(* I say 98 because I can only think of two casino employees off the top of my head who are okay with card counting. One is Bill Zender, who declared open season for card counters while he was casino manager at the Aladdin, and the other who's name is at the bottom right of this page :))
Quote: FaceME, I've posed this to the Powers That Be a number of times. Forget even partially, possibly, maybe kinda sorta considering it, they looked at me like I had two heads. "Count?! FOR THEM?!"
The boogey man lives.
Which powers -- casino operations or marketing? Marketing is supposed to spend money, and there's a lot you can do with creative accounting if you use marketing budget to subsidize the casino numbers. I still think it'd be a net winner as long as you kept the limits low. Obviously don't do this with black chips. But I'm gratified that you think it's a good idea, and if you want to work on putting together an ROI package for your bosses, I'm game. Let me know.
What??Quote: teddys98 out of 100 gamblers will say card counting is fine, a legitimate playing technique, and not illegal or immoral.
Really?
Not from the many BJ players I have asked.
Maybe you only ask the card counters, they are in the very small minority.
Here is my take on how BJ players see card counting.
I say at least 99 out of 100 Blackjack players, and there are many of them, say card counting is a crime,
it is illegal and the players that do it should be arrested and thrown in jail.
They are cheating and stealing from the casino and ruining the game for the players that do not count.
Where did they get this misinformation??
The casinos!
The average BJ player is a non-counter that does not follow basic strategy and does not believe in the math of basic strategy.
They scream at you for hitting a 12 or 13 against a dealer's 2 or 3 up card.
999 out of 1000 will tell you that is the worst kind of play and you should leave the table or play by yourself.
That it is a crime against all the players at the table because it now changes how the remaining cards will be played out in the current and future rounds..
This is the perception that the vast majority of BJ players have, card counting is a crime based from their misunderstanding of the truth and the facts.
Probably why I do not enjoy playing BJ with others, except my friends.
Too much drama.
Sally
Quote: MathExtremistI'm not sure what you're saying -- did you misread my post? I said "you (a casino) wouldn't be able to count cards for the players *if* it were cheating." It's not cheating so there's no problem. A promotion like showing the dealer's hole card, or giving a free ace coupon aren't cheating either, they're promotional rule changes.
Right, if casino does it. But if I was secretly looking at the hole card without the dealer knowing, that would be cheating.
What I am saying is that the fact that the casino can count cards for you does not mean that it is not cheating (even though it really isn't). The casino can do whatever it wants (within certain boundaries), and many of those things would be cheating if you did them.
Quote: IbeatyouracesQuote: weaselmanRight, if casino does it. But if I was secretly looking at the hole card without the dealer knowing, that would be cheating.
No it is not unless the dealer was doing it intentionally.
Or if you somehow manipulate the dealer into doing it. Otherwise, like card counting, simply observing a hole card is not cheating. Cheating requires one to "alter" something, not just observe it.
Quote: teddysOP here. You are right on. The reason I posted the quote and the article was because the journalist's quotes were an EXACT REFLECTION of the dialogue that goes on here between PaiGowDan and the gambler/AP crew. That's not an aberration.
98 out of 100 casino employees will say card counting is unfair, cheating, and evil, and the house should do all they can to protect themselves from it.(*)
98 out of 100 gamblers will say card counting is fine, a legitimate playing technique, and not illegal or immoral.
That's just the way the cookie crumbles.
(* I say 98 because I can only think of two casino employees off the top of my head who are okay with card counting. One is Bill Zender, who declared open season for card counters while he was casino manager at the Aladdin, and the other who's name is at the bottom right of this page :))
I would hope you're incorrect, teddys, and feel free to add my name to that list. Counting, to me, is merely an activity I am trained and paid to recognize, "prove" to the best of my abilities, and prevent. When I see a possible counter, I have one of only two thoughts. Either "Yes! Time to play the game" or "Damn, I don't feel like doing this today." Thoughts on the persons ethical or moral standards have never once crossed my mind, nor has it anytime a counter regales his experience on the forum. I don't see what the big deal is, neither why you should be ashamed for doing it, nor why you must defend your honor if you do.
Quote: MathExtremistWhich powers -- casino operations or marketing? Marketing is supposed to spend money, and there's a lot you can do with creative accounting if you use marketing budget to subsidize the casino numbers. I still think it'd be a net winner as long as you kept the limits low. Obviously don't do this with black chips. But I'm gratified that you think it's a good idea, and if you want to work on putting together an ROI package for your bosses, I'm game. Let me know.
Neither, I'm afraid. I have to follow that pesky chain of command, and I could never get past the first 2 steps. It was completely shot down as hard as a thing could be shot down. I thought it was a great idea, and I'm somewhat honored that you feel the same. I'm sure your math is far an above anything I could do, but it seems the risk or cost isn't out of the realm of any of the other promo's they do, and it could really put a place on the map. The sharps could tell it wouldn't be a big deal, but your average non-WoV gambler (aka the vast majority of people) might be intrigued and come in to check it out. It's a POSSIBLE loss of ~1% HA vs a guaranteed loss of their current promos, but no, they won't even pretend to entertain the idea.
Quote: bigfoot66Card counting certainly does not violate the statute on criminal cheating, on this much we all agree. But come on guys, the casinos get to determine the rules of the games. They are entitled to make any rule they want, you are keep walking if you don't like it. If they make it clear that one of the rules is that you are not allowed to count cards, then you are breaking the rules if you do it. In a gambling game, we call it 'cheating' when you break the rules to your own benefit. What is so crazy about this?
As you said, card count is not criminal cheating in the legal sense. I assume your point is: card counting is still "cheating" socially if not legally. That is your personal opinion. My opinion is that it is not cheating even in the social sense.
Dan gave examples of cheating socially, such as cheating on your wife or cheating candy out of kids. On the same token, you can say card counter is cheating casino out of their money. I would consider the relationship between card counter and the casino as to - opposing sides of a real war. When a general out smarts the opposing side, you do not call that cheating? Do you?
Regard your comment about the rules. I keep walking until I find a casino whose legal rules are good enough for me to play, then I play. I am not bind by any other rules the casino to choose to make up.
Quote: FaceNeither, I'm afraid. I have to follow that pesky chain of command,
But I don't. Your intuition is correct on the numbers, but in order to sell it to marketing as a true promo you need to put it in dollar terms rather than percentages. If you can find a dealer or (better) a floor supervisor who thinks it's a cool idea, that will help too. You can mitigate the initial risk by offering it on only one table at low limits ($5-$50, etc). I'd strongly suspect that such a table will have higher drop *and* win than the $5 table next to it.
PM me if you want me to help you take another run at it. Pro bono.
Quote: mustangsallyI say at least 99 out of 100 Blackjack players, and there are many of them, say card counting is a crime,
it is illegal and the players that do it should be arrested and thrown in jail.
Wow. So every time they ask another player "are you counting", they do it because they think he belongs in jail?
Quote: mustangsallyThe average BJ player is a non-counter that does not follow basic strategy and does not believe in the math of basic strategy.
Yes, but he believes in counting.
I occassionally play blackjack and try to follow BS. I do not know how to count though I understand the principles.
I understand that the casino has the right to provide service to whomever they wish and disallow whomever they wish.
As I understand it movies like "21" show the counting teams getting huge bags of money after sitting at the table for 30 minutes when I assume most counters have to slug it out over 8 hour periods to make any real profit.
What I don't understand is why a casino wouldn't address this situation head on? Look at the amount of energy spent on just this forum with no money at stake arguing over the right or wrong of counting. Why not lower their headaches and costs of surviellance by embracing the Counter within "rules" that lower their exposure to loss. Wouldn't it make sense to simply let it be known that counters can play from x:00 to x:00 with these rules - after that time we have a 0 tolerance policy - if we think you're counting the pit will ask you to play another game. Maybe it would become an advertising point...
I'm not naive enough to think that people wouldn't stop counting other times but it may reduce the amount of surviellance time if instead of tracking suspected counters the pit simply starts backing them off the game earlier in the process. If they're not counting they'll probably just get up and go play another game or slots if the pit handles the situation smoothly. If they are counting you want them moving toward the door or another part of the casino anyway.
There's no point, no profit in this for casinos.
I believe there is at least long-term profit to be made in a "We count for you" style promotion. It won't attract pro counters, because they don't need you to count for them and because you'd keep the max bet low. Perhaps also limited penetration, so less profit than in a deep-dealt higher-stake game. So the table will be jammed with adventurous rec players, most of who don't quite know what to do with the count.
Emphasis on keeping it attractive to rec players, but not enough to pros.
BTW, as to Dan's position:
I'd like to bring up the topic of online casinos here. Since they can't comp you drinks, they give you bonus points on first deposit. You can play through that bonus with less -EV than the bonus size and withdraw. I guess you also consider it cheating, right?
Some online casinos, however, will then call you a bonus abuser (despite meeting their requirements) and seize your whole account. Do you support them in doing this?
Yeah, many "counters" can keep a running count. From that group, subtract the "counters" that CANNOT perform an accurate true count conversion, play optimally, and bet optimally.
How many of the remaining "counters" have the bankroll, and the discipline to make money?
Quote: WupperHow many "counters" are a real threat to the casino? It's gotta be a small percentage of those that consider themselves "counters."
Yeah, many "counters" can keep a running count. From that group, subtract the "counters" that CANNOT perform an accurate true count conversion, play optimally, and bet optimally.
How many of the remaining "counters" have the bankroll, and the discipline to make money?
With the casino counter measure in place, very few are a real threat. If the counter measure is good, then there is no threat.
Without the counter measures, the casino will be swamped by real threats from the globe. CC will own the casino within 12 months.
Without the counter measures, a lone wolf CC can easily double their hourly win rate every 3 month. $5/hr CC will be $80/hr in one year, and $1300/hr in two years.
Quote: WupperHow many "counters" are a real threat to the casino? It's gotta be a small percentage of those that consider themselves "counters."
Yeah, many "counters" can keep a running count. From that group, subtract the "counters" that CANNOT perform an accurate true count conversion, play optimally, and bet optimally.
How many of the remaining "counters" have the bankroll, and the discipline to make money?
This is exactly my point... if the "many" outweigh the loss you take on the "few" why not welcome it under your conditions?
I also really like the idea of the "we count for you" promotion...I think that would have people reading about 1/2 a chapter in a counting instuctional book - or maybe a magazine article on the plane and then running to the table to make wild bet size changes and splitting 10's because the count is in their favor.
