My Baccarat System

I'm new to this forum and I just created a YouTube channel with some baccarat strategies. Was wondering if someone people can check it out and test out my systems to see if they are good or bad.

https://youtu.be/Owxb2_52Szw

https://youtu.be/6FHkGZFVTjs

Please let me know what you think even if you think they are terrible. I accept all criticism.

It wont let me post a link to my YouTube channel so just search for (No links without management approval ) on Youtube.

Quote: GreenZero

I'm new to this forum and I just created a YouTube channel with some baccarat strategies. Was wondering if someone people can check it out and test out my systems to see if they are good or bad.

(LINKS REMOVED BY MOD FOR NO PRIOR MANAGEMENT APPEOVAL FOR YOUTUBE BETTING SYSTEM)

Please let me know what you think even if you think they are terrible. I accept all criticism.

It wont let me post a link to my YouTube channel so just search for (TheDeplorableWinner) on Youtube.
link to original post

Explain your favorite strategy in ten or less steps. You'll get more responses than asking people to search out youtube videos.
You are in luck as this forum attracts some of the finest baccarat minds on the planet.

Quote: GreenZero

I'm new to this forum and I just created a YouTube channel with some baccarat strategies. Was wondering if someone people can check it out and test out my systems to see if they are good or bad.


Please let me know what you think even if you think they are terrible. I accept all criticism.

It wont let me post a link to my YouTube channel so just search for (TheDeplorableWinner) on Youtube.
link to original post

Baccarat is a mindless no skill game(unless you find an actual advantage that can be proven by math)

Merry Christmas.

Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: GreenZero

I'm new to this forum and I just created a YouTube channel with some baccarat strategies. Was wondering if someone people can check it out and test out my systems to see if they are good or bad.

Please let me know what you think even if you think they are terrible. I accept all criticism.

It wont let me post a link to my YouTube channel so just search for (TheDeplorableWinner) on Youtube.
link to original post

Baccarat is a mindless no skill game(unless you find an actual advantage that can be proven by math)

Merry Christmas.
link to original post

For a mindless no skill game, I’ve done pretty good at it.

Afforded me to have two beautiful bankrolls of all win money totaling $88,000.00 plus all kinds of additions to savings, 529 plans and tens of thousands in material and tangible purchases, again all from winnings, or should I say the mindless and no skill winnings of baccarat?

Quote: Marcusclark66

Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: GreenZero

I'm new to this forum and I just created a YouTube channel with some baccarat strategies. Was wondering if someone people can check it out and test out my systems to see if they are good or bad.


Please let me know what you think even if you think they are terrible. I accept all criticism.

It wont let me post a link to my YouTube channel so just search for (TheDeplorableWinner) on Youtube.
link to original post

Baccarat is a mindless no skill game(unless you find an actual advantage that can be proven by math)

Merry Christmas.
link to original post

Some people are simply blessed. What can we say?

For a mindless no skill game, I’ve done pretty good at it.

Afforded me to have two beautiful bankrolls of all win money totaling $88,000.00 plus all kinds of additions to savings, 529 plans and tens of thousands in material and tangible purchases, again all from winnings, or should I say the mindless and no skill winnings of baccarat?
link to original post

Quote: Marcusclark66

Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: GreenZero

I'm new to this forum and I just created a YouTube channel with some baccarat strategies. Was wondering if someone people can check it out and test out my systems to see if they are good or bad.

Please let me know what you think even if you think they are terrible. I accept all criticism.

It wont let me post a link to my YouTube channel so just search for (TheDeplorableWinner) on Youtube.
link to original post

Baccarat is a mindless no skill game(unless you find an actual advantage that can be proven by math)

Merry Christmas.
link to original post

For a mindless no skill game, I’ve done pretty good at it.

Afforded me to have two beautiful bankrolls of all win money totaling $88,000.00 plus all kinds of additions to savings, 529 plans and tens of thousands in material and tangible purchases, again all from winnings, or should I say the mindless and no skill winnings of baccarat?
link to original post

Impressive. What’s your technique to consistently generate bacarrat profits.?

Write it on the Internet and pretend that anyone believes his fairy tales.

Quote: PokerGrinder

Write it on the Internet and pretend that anyone believes his fairy tales.
link to original post

Some forum members actually believe it's less likely I make money off of comps from multiple players cards than Marcus makes money playing negative expectation Baccarat.

Quote: darkoz

Quote: PokerGrinder

Write it on the Internet and pretend that anyone believes his fairy tales.
link to original post

Some forum members actually believe it's less likely I make money off of comps from multiple players cards than Marcus makes money playing negative expectation Baccarat.
link to original post

Isn’t that scary?

Ok, Your looking at the bead road. Your looking for an L shaped pattern. for example:

BB
B
B
P
B
P

As you can see above you have 3 bankers in the first column and then that banker at the top of the 2nd column forming like an L shape

Now you bet against the banker in a rectangular pattern for example:

BBP
BB
BB
PB
BP
PP

1.) You would bet 1 unit on player on the first bet which is the second one down in the 2nd column which is a loss
2.) Bet 2 units on player again by doubling up or 'Martingale' on your second bet which is also a loss
3.) Since you lost the first 2 bets, wait until you reach the next column and bet 4 units on player which you win.

So basically you bet against a 3x4 rectangle being all one color or all banker or all player.

You bet an 8 step martingale or you can use the carsch system to be a little more safe.

It's kinda hard to explain it which is why the video makes it so much easier. Hope you understand.

Quote: GreenZero

You bet an 8 step martingale or you can use the carsch system to be a little more safe.
link to original post

Welcome.

Betting progressions don't negate the house edge.
Most let you win moderately much of the time while occasionally losing big.

Glad that you've had good luck so far, but it's just luck.

I know and your 100% correct but the question is can you accumulate enough winnings to absorb those hits when you lose. I'm trying to find out and im going to post a series on YouTube soon to see how it works out over time. I don't know the % or probability of losing with this strategy but I was hoping someone here could shed some light on that.

Quote: Ace2

Quote: Marcusclark66

Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: GreenZero

I'm new to this forum and I just created a YouTube channel with some baccarat strategies. Was wondering if someone people can check it out and test out my systems to see if they are good or bad.

Please let me know what you think even if you think they are terrible. I accept all criticism.

It wont let me post a link to my YouTube channel so just search for (TheDeplorableWinner) on Youtube.
link to original post

Baccarat is a mindless no skill game(unless you find an actual advantage that can be proven by math)

Merry Christmas.
link to original post

For a mindless no skill game, I’ve done pretty good at it.

Afforded me to have two beautiful bankrolls of all win money totaling $88,000.00 plus all kinds of additions to savings, 529 plans and tens of thousands in material and tangible purchases, again all from winnings, or should I say the mindless and no skill winnings of baccarat?
link to original post

Impressive. What’s your technique to consistently generate bacarrat profits.?
link to original post

He's not giving up the secret sauce Ace we're just supposed to believe him and why wouldn't we for gawd sake's
he's a security guard they are known to have the highest ethics and morality on the planet.

Quote: GreenZero

I know and your 100% correct but the question is can you accumulate enough winnings to absorb those hits when you lose. I'm trying to find out and im going to post a series on YouTube soon to see how it works out over time. I don't know the % or probability of losing with this strategy but I was hoping someone here could shed some light on that.
link to original post

NO progressive betting system or betting method or whatever changes the house edge. I'm not a baccarat player but that is a universal truth for any game of chance. If house rules say the house has a one percent edge, you can expect to lose one dollar for every hundred dollars you bet in the long run. Your short-term results can vary but that's luck and not the result of any betting pattern.

Thank you sir. I appreciate the input. I'm going to give it a trial to see how it goes.

Quote: GreenZero

I don't know the % or probability of losing with this strategy but I was hoping someone here could shed some light on that.
link to original post

I'm going to pose a few questions.

Does how much you bet change how the cards come out?

If you were offering a baccarat game and any of the mathematicians you employ thought that making notes at the table could help the players win, would you hand out scorecards and pencils?


Best of luck in your endeavours.

No and no. Thank you I will run a good simulation to prove you are correct. Good luck to you as well.

Quote: GreenZero

I know and your 100% correct but the question is can you accumulate enough winnings to absorb those hits when you lose. I'm trying to find out and im going to post a series on YouTube soon to see how it works out over time. I don't know the % or probability of losing with this strategy but I was hoping someone here could shed some light on that.

The percentage of losing with this strategy is 100% given a large enough number of trials or sample size.

And that is my problem with what has been occurred here over the past year. The math for which this forum and sister site WoO and the original owner is renowned for, is being completely discarded and long disproven voodoo theories proposed in place of, like short term winning (which can and does happen), repeated over and over (which can't and doesn't happen).

I have nothing against this poster or any of the other baccarat players, but to win long-term, you have to have something that is allowing you to play with an advantage and no betting system does that. And if these guys aren't challenged each and every time they head into this voodoo territory, it just encourages more of these voodoo type baccarat players and claims. At some point doesn't this forum that still uses Wizard's name, and picture in caricature form, HAVE to go back to being about the math?

Quote: kewlj

Quote: GreenZero

I know and your 100% correct but the question is can you accumulate enough winnings to absorb those hits when you lose. I'm trying to find out and im going to post a series on YouTube soon to see how it works out over time. I don't know the % or probability of losing with this strategy but I was hoping someone here could shed some light on that.

The percentage of losing with this strategy is 100% given a large enough number of trials or sample size.

And that is my problem with what has been occurred here over the past year. The math for which this forum and sister site WoO and the original owner is renowned for, is being completely discarded and long disproven voodoo theories proposed in place of, like short term winning (which can and does happen), repeated over and over (which can't and doesn't happen).

I have nothing against this poster or any of the other baccarat players, but to win long-term, you have to have something that is allowing you to play with an advantage and no betting system does that. And if these guys aren't challenged each and every time they head into this voodoo territory, it just encourages more of these voodoo type baccarat players and claims. At some point doesn't this forum that still uses Wizard's name, and picture in caricature form, HAVE to go back to being about the math?
link to original post

I not only agree with you, I think you haven't taken it far enough.

It's not just that winning against negative expectations is being touted but that AP like you and I are being maligned and accused of not having a realistic edge.

MDawg doesn't just claim to beat Baccarat but repeatedly states what I do is a lie and nearly impossible.

IMO they know they don't have a winning system so to maintain credibility they have to attack those that do.

To me, this is the most frustrating aspect.

Quote: Marcusclark66

I’ve done pretty good at it.

Afforded me to have two beautiful bankrolls of all win money totaling $88,000.00 plus all kinds of additions to savings, 529 plans and tens of thousands in material and tangible purchases, again all from winnings,

_________


every single PhD Mathematician on the planet will tell you that a negative expectancy game cannot be beat by betting streaks, patterns or any version of the martingale or any other money management system

𝙗𝙪𝙩 𝙮𝙤𝙪 𝙝𝙖𝙫𝙚 𝙋𝙍𝙊𝙑𝙀𝙉 𝙩𝙝𝙚𝙢 𝙖𝙡𝙡 𝙩𝙤 𝙗𝙚 𝙬𝙧𝙤𝙣𝙜

it truly is amazing

𝙄 𝙙𝙤𝙣'𝙩 𝙪𝙣𝙙𝙚𝙧𝙨𝙩𝙖𝙣𝙙 𝙬𝙝𝙮 𝙩𝙝𝙚 𝙚𝙣𝙩𝙞𝙧𝙚 𝙬𝙤𝙧𝙡𝙙 𝙝𝙖𝙨 𝙣𝙤𝙩 𝙮𝙚𝙩 𝙧𝙚𝙘𝙤𝙜𝙣𝙞𝙯𝙚𝙙 𝙮𝙤𝙪𝙧 𝙛𝙖𝙣𝙩𝙖𝙨𝙩𝙞𝙘 𝙖𝙘𝙘𝙤𝙢𝙥𝙡𝙞𝙨𝙝𝙢𝙚𝙣𝙩𝙨

proving every mathematician wrong, as you have easily done, should put you in the running for a 𝙉𝙊𝘽𝙀𝙇 𝙋𝙍𝙄𝙕𝙀

just try to imagine how proud everyone here at WOV will be when that happens

again, 𝘾𝙊𝙉𝙂𝙍𝘼𝙏𝙐𝙇𝘼𝙏𝙄𝙊𝙉𝙎 𝙏𝙊 𝙔𝙊𝙐 𝙎𝙄𝙍


.

I believe the original philosophizer, Jesus Nazario, said that a great prophet is recognized everywhere but in his hometown.

Quote: kewlj

Quote: GreenZero

I know and your 100% correct but the question is can you accumulate enough winnings to absorb those hits when you lose. I'm trying to find out and im going to post a series on YouTube soon to see how it works out over time. I don't know the % or probability of losing with this strategy but I was hoping someone here could shed some light on that.

The percentage of losing with this strategy is 100% given a large enough number of trials or sample size.

And that is my problem with what has been occurred here over the past year. The math for which this forum and sister site WoO and the original owner is renowned for, is being completely discarded and long disproven voodoo theories proposed in place of, like short term winning (which can and does happen), repeated over and over (which can't and doesn't happen).

I have nothing against this poster or any of the other baccarat players, but to win long-term, you have to have something that is allowing you to play with an advantage and no betting system does that. And if these guys aren't challenged each and every time they head into this voodoo territory, it just encourages more of these voodoo type baccarat players and claims. At some point doesn't this forum that still uses Wizard's name, and picture in caricature form, HAVE to go back to being about the math?
link to original post

I totally agree with you KJ. When I came to this site almost 7 years ago although there was still the occasional dice setter or system bettor thread, the majority of the site was math based from both Ap's and recreational players. Sadly in the last few years this ideology has gone down the drain and with it a lot of the biggest contributors to the site have also left which in turn allows the fairy tale posters more leeway to spin their stories unopposed. I owe a lot to Mike and WoV for where I am today as without it I wouldn't have met the AP's that I have and would be in much worse financial position, as well I wouldn't have made so many good friends.

I guess what I am trying to say is I am sad as to the current state of WoV as it is nowhere near the site that I first joined. I don't know if we could ever get back to what it was but I wish we would try, Certain posters have ruined what the site stood for which was to gamble better and smarter.

Quote: PokerGrinder

Quote: kewlj

Quote: GreenZero

I know and your 100% correct but the question is can you accumulate enough winnings to absorb those hits when you lose. I'm trying to find out and im going to post a series on YouTube soon to see how it works out over time. I don't know the % or probability of losing with this strategy but I was hoping someone here could shed some light on that.

The percentage of losing with this strategy is 100% given a large enough number of trials or sample size.

And that is my problem with what has been occurred here over the past year. The math for which this forum and sister site WoO and the original owner is renowned for, is being completely discarded and long disproven voodoo theories proposed in place of, like short term winning (which can and does happen), repeated over and over (which can't and doesn't happen).

I have nothing against this poster or any of the other baccarat players, but to win long-term, you have to have something that is allowing you to play with an advantage and no betting system does that. And if these guys aren't challenged each and every time they head into this voodoo territory, it just encourages more of these voodoo type baccarat players and claims. At some point doesn't this forum that still uses Wizard's name, and picture in caricature form, HAVE to go back to being about the math?
link to original post

Whenever I get sad over the fate of this forum, I find comfort in the many Rolex photos that have been so generously posted on a certain thread.
I always sucked at math and it's good to know that it is useless and unreliable.

I totally agree with you KJ. When I came to this site almost 7 years ago although there was still the occasional dice setter or system bettor thread, the majority of the site was math based from both Ap's and recreational players. Sadly in the last few years this ideology has gone down the drain and with it a lot of the biggest contributors to the site have also left which in turn allows the fairy tale posters more leeway to spin their stories unopposed. I owe a lot to Mike and WoV for where I am today as without it I wouldn't have met the AP's that I have and would be in much worse financial position, as well I wouldn't have made so many good friends.

I guess what I am trying to say is I am sad as to the current state of WoV as it is nowhere near the site that I first joined. I don't know if we could ever get back to what it was but I wish we would try, Certain posters have ruined what the site stood for which was to gamble better and smarter.
link to original post

I hate math and think it sucks. Personally, I am thrilled that the forum has gotten away from being strictly math and fact-based and is drifting into fantasy. I'm hoping we expand into cosplay but that might be too soon. Viva La Forum!!!!!!

Quote: billryan

I hate math and think it sucks. Personally, I am thrilled that the forum has gotten away from being strictly math and fact-based and is drifting into fantasy. I'm hoping we expand into cosplay but that might be too soon. Viva La Forum!!!!!!
link to original post

Math doesn't care.

Trolling, 7 days.

edit: amended to time served after review. The statement could be defended as sarcasm.

Quote: GreenZero

I know and your 100% correct but the question is can you accumulate enough winnings to absorb those hits when you lose. I'm trying to find out and im going to post a series on YouTube soon to see how it works out over time. I don't know the % or probability of losing with this strategy but I was hoping someone here could shed some light on that.
link to original post

I have produced quite a few videos already on this topic. You should watch a few of them to see how worthless "systems" are. Telling people you have an easy way to beat a game will get you a lot of followers. The downside is you will have to live with the guilt.

Here, I'll get you started with two:

I’m 100% certain my “selling water bottles on the strip system” will yield better results than your baccarat “system”.

As always…long term.

Quote: darkoz

Quote: PokerGrinder

Write it on the Internet and pretend that anyone believes his fairy tales.
link to original post

Some forum members actually believe it's less likely I make money off of comps from multiple players cards than Marcus makes money playing negative expectation Baccarat.
link to original post

darkoz to be fair what you say you do makes sense to a degree, it's just I think most of us thought casinos would track that sort of thing and ban you from using other people's cards. I used my wife's comps a while back when she couldn't come with me, but it was a pain in the ass(Caesar property) and I was worried the entire time so I broke up when I got her comp money out and then my own, so if I got caught I could plead accidental/innocent.

Quote: ChallengedMilly

Quote: darkoz

Quote: PokerGrinder

Write it on the Internet and pretend that anyone believes his fairy tales.
link to original post

Some forum members actually believe it's less likely I make money off of comps from multiple players cards than Marcus makes money playing negative expectation Baccarat.
link to original post

darkoz to be fair what you say you do makes sense to a degree, it's just I think most of us thought casinos would track that sort of thing and ban you from using other people's cards. I used my wife's comps a while back when she couldn't come with me, but it was a pain in the ass(Caesar property) and I was worried the entire time so I broke up when I got her comp money out and then my own, so if I got caught I could plead accidental/innocent.
link to original post

This is true.

Many casinos "track" comp abuse which is what they usually designate it.

But the casinos have thousands if not tens of thousands of patrons receiving comps at any one time so usually they try to automate their tracking.

It's part of what I do to "test the waters" of any tracking system to determine what I need to do to outsmart it.

It's a cat and mouse game. Sometimes when they have installed roadblocks to my using cards that's the best time to strike. Because they are so certain their roadblocks work they can't imagine I have already circumvented their new software.

Sometimes. And sometimes I get creamed because I underestimated the casinos zeal.

All part of the territory.

Quote: darkoz

This is true.

Many casinos "track" comp abuse which is what they usually designate it.

But the casinos have thousands if not tens of thousands of patrons receiving comps at any one time so usually they try to automate their tracking.

It's part of what I do to "test the waters" of any tracking system to determine what I need to do to outsmart it.

It's a cat and mouse game. Sometimes when they have installed roadblocks to my using cards that's the best time to strike. Because they are so certain their roadblocks work they can't imagine I have already circumvented their new software.

Sometimes. And sometimes I get creamed because I underestimated the casinos zeal.

you go farther (based on my understanding of how you operate) than I was ever willing to go as an AP - of course, I was only part time

I would not reveal my identity (when I operated as a BJ AP) but I was not and would not be willing to feign false identities

that is my understanding of what you do with your multiple players cards

to me that is straying outside of my personal ethical guidelines

not really meant as a criticism - just an observation - each to his own


.

Quote: lilredrooster

Quote: darkoz

This is true.

Many casinos "track" comp abuse which is what they usually designate it.

But the casinos have thousands if not tens of thousands of patrons receiving comps at any one time so usually they try to automate their tracking.

It's part of what I do to "test the waters" of any tracking system to determine what I need to do to outsmart it.

It's a cat and mouse game. Sometimes when they have installed roadblocks to my using cards that's the best time to strike. Because they are so certain their roadblocks work they can't imagine I have already circumvented their new software.

Sometimes. And sometimes I get creamed because I underestimated the casinos zeal.

you go farther (based on my understanding of how you operate) than I was ever willing to go as an AP - of course, I was only part time

I would not reveal my identity (when I operated as a BJ AP) but I was not and would not be willing to feign false identities

that is my understanding of what you do with your multiple players cards

to me that is straying outside of my personal ethical guidelines

not really meant as a criticism - just an observation - each to his own


.
link to original post

Let's not forget someone who's willing you give permission to another to use of their player's cards is likely being compensated. Oftentimes, this can be very beneficial to the person supplying their cards with ongoing food, rooms, shows, etc in some cases an ongoing stream of some much-needed money they greatly appreciate. That's enough to quell any ethical reservation I might have. Considering the highly predatory nature of casinos, It's hard to feel bad when people take advantage of their system. Just something to think about.

Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: lilredrooster

Quote: darkoz

This is true.

Many casinos "track" comp abuse which is what they usually designate it.

But the casinos have thousands if not tens of thousands of patrons receiving comps at any one time so usually they try to automate their tracking.

It's part of what I do to "test the waters" of any tracking system to determine what I need to do to outsmart it.

It's a cat and mouse game. Sometimes when they have installed roadblocks to my using cards that's the best time to strike. Because they are so certain their roadblocks work they can't imagine I have already circumvented their new software.

Sometimes. And sometimes I get creamed because I underestimated the casinos zeal.

you go farther (based on my understanding of how you operate) than I was ever willing to go as an AP - of course, I was only part time

I would not reveal my identity (when I operated as a BJ AP) but I was not and would not be willing to feign false identities

that is my understanding of what you do with your multiple players cards

to me that is straying outside of my personal ethical guidelines

not really meant as a criticism - just an observation - each to his own


.
link to original post

Let's not forget someone who's willing you give permission to another to use of their player's cards is likely being compensated. Oftentimes, this can be very beneficial to the person supplying their cards with ongoing food, rooms, shows, etc in some cases an ongoing stream of some much-needed money they greatly appreciate. That's enough to quell any ethical reservation I might have. Considering the highly predatory nature of casinos, It's hard to feel bad when people take advantage of their system. Just something to think about.
link to original post

I wonder if getting Comps, which have a monetary value, using a false identity, is technically illegal
don't really know but I think it's possible
something to consider

.

Quote: lilredrooster

Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: lilredrooster

Quote: darkoz

This is true.

Many casinos "track" comp abuse which is what they usually designate it.

But the casinos have thousands if not tens of thousands of patrons receiving comps at any one time so usually they try to automate their tracking.

It's part of what I do to "test the waters" of any tracking system to determine what I need to do to outsmart it.

It's a cat and mouse game. Sometimes when they have installed roadblocks to my using cards that's the best time to strike. Because they are so certain their roadblocks work they can't imagine I have already circumvented their new software.

Sometimes. And sometimes I get creamed because I underestimated the casinos zeal.

you go farther (based on my understanding of how you operate) than I was ever willing to go as an AP - of course, I was only part time

I would not reveal my identity (when I operated as a BJ AP) but I was not and would not be willing to feign false identities

that is my understanding of what you do with your multiple players cards

to me that is straying outside of my personal ethical guidelines

not really meant as a criticism - just an observation - each to his own


.
link to original post

Let's not forget someone who's willing you give permission to another to use of their player's cards is likely being compensated. Oftentimes, this can be very beneficial to the person supplying their cards with ongoing food, rooms, shows, etc in some cases an ongoing stream of some much-needed money they greatly appreciate. That's enough to quell any ethical reservation I might have. Considering the highly predatory nature of casinos, It's hard to feel bad when people take advantage of their system. Just something to think about.
link to original post

I wonder if getting Comps, which have a monetary value, using a false identity, is technically illegal
don't really know but I think it's possible
something to consider

.
link to original post

There is no false identity involved.

I am using other people's cards with those people permission. I am not claiming to be those people. I am picking up their offers with their permission.

If casino security was to surround me with proof I used someone else card, I would say that's correct and hand it over. I would not claim to be that person.

That individual is a real person with real address and authorized me to use their offers.

Casinos like to believe only they have that right but they don't. The offers belong to the card holder (their mail even has their name on it) and they can do whatever they like with the offers, pick them up and give them away or not even bother to pick them up and let me go down for them. That's the law! That's all I care about.

BTW, we all agree that BJ card counting is also against casino rules? Isn't that why they do back off and reshuffle? Because they claim you are violating their rules of gameplay? (Remember they used to arrest people until courts asked how just thinking could be illegal).

So I don't care what the casino thinks is wrong. Only the law.

(BTW - card counters are notorious for trying to play under false identity. To my knowledge no card counters have been arrested for disguises and fake names. Correct?)

__________


with certain Comps - such as a free night in a luxury hotel - and maybe others________

isn't a person required to show ID?

.

Quote: lilredrooster

__________


with certain Comps - such as a free night in a luxury hotel - and maybe others________

isn't a person required to show ID?

.
link to original post

As Axel said the page before, those would be claimed by the actual person who is named on the card.

Give me your card, I get freeplay, you get hotels and free food and shopping.

Nice deal?

Quote: lilredrooster

Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: lilredrooster

Quote: darkoz

This is true.

Many casinos "track" comp abuse which is what they usually designate it.

But the casinos have thousands if not tens of thousands of patrons receiving comps at any one time so usually they try to automate their tracking.

It's part of what I do to "test the waters" of any tracking system to determine what I need to do to outsmart it.

It's a cat and mouse game. Sometimes when they have installed roadblocks to my using cards that's the best time to strike. Because they are so certain their roadblocks work they can't imagine I have already circumvented their new software.

Sometimes. And sometimes I get creamed because I underestimated the casinos zeal.

you go farther (based on my understanding of how you operate) than I was ever willing to go as an AP - of course, I was only part time

I would not reveal my identity (when I operated as a BJ AP) but I was not and would not be willing to feign false identities

that is my understanding of what you do with your multiple players cards

to me that is straying outside of my personal ethical guidelines

not really meant as a criticism - just an observation - each to his own


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Let's not forget someone who's willing you give permission to another to use of their player's cards is likely being compensated. Oftentimes, this can be very beneficial to the person supplying their cards with ongoing food, rooms, shows, etc in some cases an ongoing stream of some much-needed money they greatly appreciate. That's enough to quell any ethical reservation I might have. Considering the highly predatory nature of casinos, It's hard to feel bad when people take advantage of their system. Just something to think about.
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I wonder if getting Comps, which have a monetary value, using a false identity, is technically illegal
don't really know but I think it's possible
something to consider

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I'm not talking about using fake ID or pretending to be that person. People use their own cards and ID to get rooms, food, and other things. An AP might play on their card to earn such things and get free-play, but I see nothing unethical about that.

Simply put, impersonation would involve using a legally recognized financial instrument (particularly without permission) in another person's name, or alternatively, some legally recognized form of identification belonging to another person. A casino players club card is neither of those things.

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okay, I accept that - there is nothing illegal or untoward about it

but I wonder this

if you are a highly skilled player won't the casino's computers catch the fact - since you stuck the card in the machine - that they have paid out in cash and comps much more than you have put in?

and won't they then take countermeasures to plug the leak?


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Quote: lilredrooster

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okay, I accept that - there is nothing illegal or untoward about it

but I wonder this

if you are a highly skilled player won't the casino's computers catch the fact - since you stuck the card in the machine - that they have paid out in cash and comps much more than you have put in?

and won't they then take countermeasures to plug the leak?


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link to original post

It's hard for them to know who's who until after the fact and the money has all been mined, then they shut you down, thus the need for multiple player's cards.

The casinos do take countermeasures to plug leaks all the time. It's like a never-ending cycle, the casinos catch on to what advantage players are doing so then they take countermeasures. Advantage Players oftentimes figure out a way around the countermeasures. Some casinos might just stop giving out good stuff, shut off offers, etc. If the casino stops giving out the good stuff and they make things difficult, the customers may stop coming. If that happens, the casino often times comes up with something different/new. Now the Advantage players come back and figure out how to exploit it, oftentimes it's even better than before, it's just different.

Quote: lilredrooster

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okay, I accept that - there is nothing illegal or untoward about it

but I wonder this

if you are a highly skilled player won't the casino's computers catch the fact - since you stuck the card in the machine - that they have paid out in cash and comps much more than you have put in?

and won't they then take countermeasures to plug the leak?

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The problem with talking about these things at all (DarkOz) is that these sorts of questions are bound to be asked, and in order to successfully defend your claims, you then have to answer in further detail.

Quite simply, there is no evidence necessarily even being given that a person is a, "Highly skilled player."

When it comes to multi-carding, the question is simply one of whether or not the anticipated offers that will come in (i.e. Free Play) is going to exceed the expected loss on the action.

In many cases, people will do the initial play on these cards entirely on slots for a wide variety of reasons:

1.) Because the casino's marketing department will sometimes (not always) treat slots differently than Video Poker and will send slot players substantially better offers such that the expected final outcome (after collecting the free play) is better with slots.

2.) Because the casino's marketing department will sometimes (not always) treat slots differently than Video Poker to the extent that the offer tiers are the same, but the offers can be reached more efficiently on slots due to the fact that slots will require less coin-in (most likely because the offers are ADT based) to reach certain tiers of offers.

3.) Because slots can occasionally be played in +EV situations, or situations in which the perceived EV of the slot play is good enough (such as must-hits, other Progressives, games with progressive Free Games---such as Buffalo Diamond---or games such as the one with the kitty cats) that playing the slots is seen as viable, if not the best thing to do.***

In any event, in many of these cases, there is nothing going on such that the casino would be able to, "Identify a skilled player," prior to extending to the player in question the Free Play offers.

Cash and Comp Value

When someone who intends to multi-card a particular location is deciding whether or not to do that there, this is something that gets, "Tested."

The first thing that someone who intends to multi-card will want is to know that the free play offers, specifically, are going to significantly exceed the expected loss on, "Running the card," which refers to the initial day of play, whether that be slots or Video Poker.

Of course, you can sometimes get a general idea of this prior to even testing a card yourself. If you know (or can speak to) anyone who has played in that casino, get an idea of what they play and what their ADT might be, then that could give you a general idea of whether a casino's free play offers are, 'Good,' or, "Bad.'

Now, you might think that with so many casinos being corporate-owned that this would be pretty easily known depending on the corporation---but that's not true. When it comes to Free Play, individual casinos owned by companies such as Penn National Gaming and CET pretty much have their own marketing departments for direct offers (despite shared national systems for rooms and such, sometimes) and can pretty much market to their own players however they wish.

Your final question referring to, "Countermeasures," also varies from casino to casino and is something that gets, "Tested." Many casinos will, "Kill the card," which either means canceling all offers or requiring the PIN to be reset without killing offers (which usually means offers are going to eventually get killed) if people come in and pick up free play without giving any additional play.

However, even for those casinos that require additional play when, "Picking up," free play, the amount of additional coin-in required just to not have offers already extended be cancelled is often pretty low such that the overall expected value of the entire proposition remains very positive.

One of the casinos that I used to multi-card, for example, had a system by which a player only had to play about $2,000 first day coin-in on a Video Poker game (since downgraded) that the casino might not have even known they had. In exchange, at that time, a player would receive almost the same amount back in Free Play over the next six months. Obviously, this well-exceeded the expected loss on the initial 2k coin-in. In fact, you could have blindly picked a slot machine anywhere on the floor and the Free Play you would get back would well more than exceed the expected loss.

Anyway, my experience with that casino was that you just wanted to make sure to earn one point, which was only $5 coin-in, every time that you picked up Free Play on a given card...and I'm not even sure that was absolutely necessary. I only had one card, "Get killed," and then I started to make sure to earn one full point anytime I picked up Free Play and I never had a card, "Get killed," again after that----but the one that was killed may have been killed for some other reason that I'm not aware of.

Thus, the short answer is that everything about the operation varies from casino to casino and the specifics are usually determined by, "Testing," usually multiple cards (play levels) are tested to find the best points.

Some casinos do not bear fruit, usually because the Free Play totally sucks---or that it doesn't totally suck, but that the EV is not such to be worth the time. That said, the casinos that do bear fruit (typically located in highly competitive markets, but sometimes markets with not much competition) more than make up for the ones that don't.

***If you see someone playing a known machine of these types lower than you would be inclined to play it, there is often a reasonably good chance they are playing it before it is +EV on its own to run coin-in on a card.

Quote: AxelWolf

It's hard for them to know who's who until after the fact and the money has all been mined, then they shut you down, thus the need for multiple player's cards.

The casinos do take countermeasures to plug leaks all the time. It's like a never-ending cycle, the casinos catch on to what advantage players are doing so then they take countermeasures. Advantage Players oftentimes figure out a way around the countermeasures. Some casinos might just stop giving out good stuff, shut off offers, etc. If the casino stops giving out the good stuff and they make things difficult, the customers may stop coming. If that happens, the casino often times comes up with something different/new. Now the Advantage players come back and figure out how to exploit it, oftentimes it's even better than before, it's just different.
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I'm surprised you posted that.

This is a much shorter version of what I said with only slightly less detail. Good post, of course.

Well as you guys can see I slipped some truth serum into Mission and Axel drinks last night and they started blabbing.

Darkozonarcitol!

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okay, just one last question - and then I'll stop bothering you guys

and it's going to be a hard one - if you don't want to answer - it's okay - I understand

but here's the question

what if you have a big hit on a machine - say $25K________or even $75K______________?

surely you have to present ID before you cash out sums like that_______________________________correct?

and also, of course, there's the W2G thing when it's over $1200


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Quote: lilredrooster

________________


okay, just one last question - and then I'll stop bothering you guys

and it's going to be a hard one - if you don't want to answer - it's okay - I understand

but here's the question

what if you have a big hit on a machine - say $25K________or even $75K______________?

surely you have to present ID before you cash out sums like that_______________________________correct?

and also, of course, there's the W2G thing when it's over $1200


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link to original post

Hard question? That's easier than cooking a pancake.

Pull the players card out and show your ID. Then get paid!

If the casino asks who's card was in the machine you say you sat down and someone before you left a card in IF you are playing cash.

If it's on freeplay, you say you were just playing with your friend who told you to finish the freeplay because he had to run to work.

Different casinos handle the situation differently. Some won't notice, some won't care and some will turn off future offers.

But ALL must pay the person who pushed the button. I will always get paid! (Only once did a casino refuse to pay and I called gaming which forced them. Because guess who was breaking the law at that moment? It wasn't me!)

Certainly if I won $75,000 on a player's card and they then turned off the offers, I wouldn't care. Hell, I I just got a lot more than I expected from the offers alone.

Has this actually happened to you DarkOz, you've been sitting at the machine playing with someone else's Player Card when you hit a $25K - $75K jackpot, and then you pulled this stunt that you propose, or are you just - like so many others here - spouting theory?

I try to post only about that with which I have personal experience.

So, if you're not just spouting theory, if what's good for the goose is good for the gander, how about posting a redacted casino check for the $25K - $75K slots win, or the redacted W2-G? that you won (were paid) off someone else's Player Card, in fact, since we all know your real name and you've posted it before via your book that you wrote, why redact much at all?

Quote: darkoz

.

Hard question? That's easier than cooking a pancake.

Pull the players card out and show your ID. Then get paid!

If the casino asks who's card was in the machine you say you sat down and someone before you left a card in IF you are playing cash.

If it's on freeplay, you say you were just playing with your friend who told you to finish the freeplay because he had to run to work.

Ok, Darkoz, I have some questions based on your above response. I am not challenging you or what you do, just trying to understand. My machine play in Vegas for 10 years supplementing my BJ play also involved playing on multiple cards, although a much, much smaller scale that what you do. I am talking 3-4 cards of family and friends.

Pulling the card, saying it was someone else's card left in the machine, saying your friend told you to finish up your freeplay, all can be verified very easily in about 30 seconds by surveillance. I had this same discussion with the guy former member here who did the interview with Wizard last year, claiming he discovered the double up bug. I said surveillance could easily and would go back and look at what you did. he said they are too busy. Well that is their freaking job and for a jackpot of 25k, 75k, if they don't check to see that everything is kosher, they aren't going to last long. That should be top priority.

Now, I understand your point that even if caught, the casino would be forced by gaming to pay up and you would just move on to new cards. But aren't there still consequences for the player "caught?" Don't they put entries, pictures descriptions, descriptions of possible associates in the different Databases just as they do card counters?

AND every time I mention this, I get a PM from somebody telling me not to, but you say playing on other people's cards isn't illegal. Are you sure of this? I know of two case brought for this action in Pa and Colorado, one against a team of players. (Perhaps you know more of it, or were "closer" to the case than I).

My point is, it would seem to me casinos are going to start really cracking down on this, especially as far as team players. Do you not have concerns of this?

Quote: MDawg

Has this actually happened to you DarkOz, you've been sitting at the machine playing with someone else's Player Card when you hit a $25K - $75K jackpot, and then you pulled this stunt that you propose, or are you just - like so many others here - spouting theory?

I try to post only about that with which I have personal experience.

So, if you're not just spouting theory, if what's good for the goose is good for the gander, how about posting a redacted casino check for the $25K - $75K slots win, or the redacted W2-G? that you won (were paid) off someone else's Player Card, in fact, since we all know your real name and you've posted it before via your book that you wrote, why redact much at all?
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Yes I have numerous times including once for $25,000 on another person's players card.

Theory? LMFFFFAO!!! I live this!!!!!

You sound so so jealous too btw!

As for W2g, one I am offended you ask me to post W2G personal info and

2). The W2G just says my name. It doesn't say "paid in lieu of someone else's card". For you to ask to see a W2G as proof I won on someone else's card tells me you probably never stepped foot inside a casino after all.

Again, the way your mind works. 🥴 Odd, to say the least. Why would I expect a W-2G or check with anything other than your name on it? pursuant to my challenge above.

Post it. Your name on it will suffice to prove that you've done something like this. I assume you don't play under your own identity much if at all because you've by now burned down all the freeplay or casinos under your own identity. So if you have a RECENT check or W2-G for $25K - $75K that would tend to prove that you have experienced something like what you described above.

I object to the post above. No one is required to provide proof. Darkoz is NOT on trial here. If there is such a requirement, then no AP will ever participate on this forum and that would be a great loss.

Furthermore, people don't need proof to decide who they find credible or not. The test is 1.) does the math work, 2) does the person know what they are talking about or are they generally just talking. Part of the deal is to figure that out.....to figure out who is credible and who isn't. It isn't hard to do.

Quote: kewlj

Quote: darkoz

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Hard question? That's easier than cooking a pancake.

Pull the players card out and show your ID. Then get paid!

If the casino asks who's card was in the machine you say you sat down and someone before you left a card in IF you are playing cash.

If it's on freeplay, you say you were just playing with your friend who told you to finish the freeplay because he had to run to work.

Ok, Darkoz, I have some questions based on your above response. I am not challenging you or what you do, just trying to understand. My machine play in Vegas for 10 years supplementing my BJ play also involved playing on multiple cards, although a much, much smaller scale that what you do. I am talking 3-4 cards of family and friends.

Pulling the card, saying it was someone else's card left in the machine, saying your friend told you to finish up your freeplay, all can be verified very easily in about 30 seconds by surveillance. I had this same discussion with the guy former member here who did the interview with Wizard last year, claiming he discovered the double up bug. I said surveillance could easily and would go back and look at what you did. he said they are too busy. Well that is their freaking job and for a jackpot of 25k, 75k, if they don't check to see that everything is kosher, they aren't going to last long. That should be top priority.

Now, I understand your point that even if caught, the casino would be forced by gaming to pay up and you would just move on to new cards. But aren't there still consequences for the player "caught?" Don't they put entries, pictures descriptions, descriptions of possible associates in the different Databases just as they do card counters?

AND every time I mention this, I get a PM from somebody telling me not to, but you say playing on other people's cards isn't illegal. Are you sure of this? I know of two case brought for this action in Pa and Colorado, one against a team of players. (Perhaps you know more of it, or were "closer" to the case than I).

My point is, it would seem to me casinos are going to start really cracking down on this, especially as far as team players. Do you not have concerns of this?
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Lots of questions so here goes.

For the most part I find they don't back check cameras unless they see something questionable. As pointed out if they see the jackpot was won on Freeplay they did that in the computer.

Backtracking the camera will show I pushed the button. So they still have to pay me. At best it will also show I was the one who used the card. Okay, so now they still have to pay me.

Yes, I lost one entire operation when that happened in 2019. Within one day all my cards were shut off. I even sent in the legit players and they said the comps were no longer available for them

This is a risk I take. Same as you when you get caught counting and have lost money and they say they don't care win or lose, get out, you count cards.

As for the Pennsylvania case. I have heard there was a team being prosecuted but from what little I know of it they were not just using other players cards but doing so without players permission.

I WAS CAUGHT in a Pennsylvania casino TWICE (including in a mask the 2nd time) with a total of 28 players cards in my possession. This was half a decade ago and ABSOLUTELY NO CHARGES were ever filed. I did have to prove every single one of the 28 people had given me permission. And once I did that, no charges.

Because it's not illegal.

Just like it's not illegal to use your significant others card. Or your mom's card. With their permission.

Or even their credit card with their permission.

I have been doing this since 2012. Either me or my crew have been apprehended with players cards in:
NYS
NJ
Massachusetts
Pennsylvania
Mississippi

Zero charges anywhere.

And I have looked up the law in these states as well.

It's simply not illegal.

I am certain you have told someone how you card count and get frustrated when they ignorantly say, "card counting is illegal. You will get busted at some point" and then you have to explain how wrong they are?

Same situation here.

Quote: lilredrooster

________________


okay, just one last question - and then I'll stop bothering you guys

and it's going to be a hard one - if you don't want to answer - it's okay - I understand

but here's the question

what if you have a big hit on a machine - say $25K________or even $75K______________?

surely you have to present ID before you cash out sums like that_______________________________correct?

and also, of course, there's the W2G thing when it's over $1200


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link to original post

Speaking only for myself, I didn’t play off free play on games where a taxable was even possible. Personally, unless someone just wants to play it off really fast, I see no reason to ever do so.

As far as running the initial coin in, only rarely did I play on a game where a handpay was even possible, and even then, it wasn’t particularly likely.