Of course it can lose. They all can lose. That said, with 2 different craps apps, and WOO's own craps simulator... I have had 0 sessions of 10 or more shooters end in a loss. I have had 100 sessions as of this morning. All have finished up 12+ units after 10 or more shooters.

Now, its no secret playing the Don't is the best statistical edge. Add odds, and you have one of the best bets in a casino.

So, what about doing it my way?

$10 DP

Point is 4/5/9/10 you place full odds of $60

Point is 6/8 no odds

Place $12 on 6 and 8, unless one is the point, then just place the other.

Don't Come bet for $5 every roll

Every DC that is 4/5/9/10 you place full odds of $30

You continue until a 7 out.

So DC with full odds unless its 6/8

Only place 6/8 once

If hit, it has been hit with a DC and you pull down your place and $14 winnings

Ok, throw me to the wolves.....

(Disclaimer: I know all systems are long term losers. I am just looking for feedback as to how the odds may creep further into a player's favor with the single place bet on 6/8 and never putting odds on DP and DC 6/8)

hundreds of rolls are next to meaningless

the 6 and 8 rightside or darkside either one, placing or laying them that is, [edit] will perform worse instead of better due to the principle that hedging one negative expectation bet with another -EV bet, while perhaps lowering variance, adds to expected loss.

I think that's what my non math brain can't get past. Lowering variance vs expected loss. I see the variance diminish, but fail to understand that expected loss will always win out.

That said, anything can win short term, we all understand that as well.

I guess my 100 sessions aren't the infinite rolls that odds are based on, true.

Quote:GamecoxJaxJust an opportunity to create value from the 2nd most likely outcome of a roll while playing DC and DP.

it's probably a better move than "taking no action" on those numbers, though I haven't crunched the numbers

p.s. The more -EV bets you make the more you're going to lose. So yes, the system as a whole is a loser, and to boot a better system would be to just play 1 DP number with odds. Then again, not playing the game at all has the best return =P. It's not bad, but the place 6 & 8 are kinda hedging since if you 7 out you win all the other bets but still LOSE these. Winning and losing at the same time is essentially hedging.

you have had a few 'my ways' in the past tooQuote:GamecoxJaxSo, what about doing it my way?

good luck!

that never putting odds on the 6&8 hurts.Quote:GamecoxJaxOk, throw me to the wolves.....

It wins the most when it wins over the outside odds

but of course no dark side player really likes to lose

it does that more ways

*****

Here are the 1st 100 shooters in the Zumma dice rolls (actual casino dice rolls)

I used WinCraps Classic...

was doing well until a 'hot shooter' showed up.

what will you do about that.

lots of repeating box numbers hit B4 the 7out.

shooter # | gain / loss | cumulative |
---|---|---|

1 | 84 | 84 |

2 | 11 | 95 |

3 | 38 | 133 |

4 | -92 | 41 |

5 | 54 | 95 |

6 | -4 | 91 |

7 | 21 | 112 |

8 | 18 | 130 |

9 | -56 | 74 |

10 | -7 | 67 |

11 | -76 | -9 |

12 | -616 | -625 |

13 | 89 | -536 |

14 | -111 | -647 |

15 | -106 | -753 |

16 | 39 | -714 |

17 | -6 | -720 |

18 | -216 | -936 |

19 | 31 | -905 |

20 | -156 | -1061 |

21 | 31 | -1030 |

22 | 129 | -901 |

23 | -26 | -927 |

24 | -101 | -1028 |

25 | 79 | -949 |

26 | -51 | -1000 |

27 | 13 | -987 |

28 | -146 | -1133 |

29 | 89 | -1044 |

30 | -181 | -1225 |

31 | 23 | -1202 |

32 | 61 | -1141 |

33 | -77 | -1218 |

34 | -7 | -1225 |

35 | -5 | -1230 |

36 | -2 | -1232 |

37 | 19 | -1213 |

38 | 38 | -1175 |

39 | 50 | -1125 |

40 | 11 | -1114 |

41 | -116 | -1230 |

42 | 13 | -1217 |

43 | 21 | -1196 |

44 | 18 | -1178 |

45 | 66 | -1112 |

46 | 109 | -1003 |

47 | 46 | -957 |

48 | -114 | -1071 |

49 | 19 | -1052 |

50 | -11 | -1063 |

51 | 29 | -1034 |

52 | 84 | -950 |

53 | 53 | -897 |

54 | 21 | -876 |

55 | 48 | -828 |

56 | -21 | -849 |

57 | -52 | -901 |

58 | 50 | -851 |

59 | -57 | -908 |

60 | 19 | -889 |

61 | 84 | -805 |

62 | -141 | -946 |

63 | 36 | -910 |

64 | 24 | -886 |

65 | 9 | -877 |

66 | 11 | -866 |

67 | -17 | -883 |

68 | 59 | -824 |

69 | 78 | -746 |

70 | -22 | -768 |

71 | 11 | -757 |

72 | -126 | -883 |

73 | 79 | -804 |

74 | 21 | -783 |

75 | 99 | -684 |

76 | -17 | -701 |

77 | -156 | -857 |

78 | -71 | -928 |

79 | -76 | -1004 |

80 | 49 | -955 |

81 | 21 | -934 |

82 | 54 | -880 |

83 | -7 | -887 |

84 | -11 | -898 |

85 | 79 | -819 |

86 | 6 | -813 |

87 | -14 | -827 |

88 | 11 | -816 |

89 | -221 | -1037 |

90 | -96 | -1133 |

91 | 109 | -1024 |

92 | 104 | -920 |

93 | 18 | -902 |

94 | -656 | -1558 |

95 | -21 | -1579 |

96 | 46 | -1533 |

97 | -211 | -1744 |

98 | 74 | -1670 |

99 | 94 | -1576 |

100 | 31 | -1545 |

total >> | -1545 | . |

thanks for sharing

one or two shooters can really do a lot of session damage to the dpass and dcome bets

Sally

Quote:RomesWhy wouldn't you take odds on the 6 and 8 for your DP or DC? Mathematically they pay out the exact same in the long run as the 4, 10, 5, and 9... If I ever play craps I play the DP/DC and I love taking max odds on the 6/8 because you can make really good money there ($60 to win $50 instead of $60 to win $30). It's all relative...

Lay odds.

There was this guy on a cruise ship who made close to 20 k making a big don't pass bet with full odds and placing the 6 and 8. He would set the dice with 7s showing. I don't believe in dice control but, when he'd 7-out, I'd always pass the dice back. Eventually, I started doing the MustangSally (laying the 4 and 10). It stayed cold for soooo long.

Quote:RomesWhy wouldn't you take odds on the 6 and 8 for your DP or DC? Mathematically they pay out the exact same in the long run as the 4, 10, 5, and 9... If I ever play craps I play the DP/DC and I love taking max odds on the 6/8 because you can make really good money there ($60 to win $50 instead of $60 to win $30). It's all relative..

Yes , it is all relative... so why would you rather lay odds on 6,8 vs 4,10 (eg..$60 to win $50 instead of $60 to win $30) when the probabilities of them winning all correlate respectively to their payout odds. You would imply that you can make more money by laying 6 and 8 vs laying 4 and 10 and a risk/reward basis ? Flawed.

I know, each dice throw is independent............. No such thing as hot shooter......