Gambling
Thanks for your time and am hopeful to get responses that are not just bashing me for asking an honest question!
Simply put, it's someone that plays with an advantage. There are diffrent degrees of advantage players: Full time, part time, weekend warriors etc. There are many diffrent type of advantage players: Blackjack card counters, hole carders on various diffrent table games, Slots AP's, video poker APs, sports etc etc. There are AP's that play anything and everything possible, as long as they have a +EV situation.Quote: CasinoRickWhat is the definition of an Advantage Player?
You are correct, nothing will beat a negative EV situation. I think what you are basically referring to are betting systems. A betting system usually consists of some crazy money management system that ties in with gambler's fallacy. There are legitimate METHODS that DO work. BUT THAT IS ONLY IF YOU HAVE A +EV SITUATION.Quote: CasinoRickI mean, if no betting system, strategy, method, or progression will ever "win in the long run" against a negative expectation game, then how is anyone considered an AP?
Most games are -EV off the top, but not all SITUATIONS are -EV. Not all games are either, sometimes casinos make mistakes.
Yes, but when you get a blackjack you get paid more. When you are counting you know when to take insurance. If you think about that more, you should understand quickly. I think Romes gave a good example regarding if there were only 10's and aces left in the deck. If you both got BJ an = amount of time YOU would be way ahead.Quote: CasinoRickYou can count cards in BJ, I understand, vary your bet sizes based on that, but in reality, the dealer has just as much chance to get 20 or 21 (face cards) as you are, right?
That's not true, read up on full pay Video poker, VP Progressives, VP bonus games (Ultimate X) VP that's 99%+ while adding slot clubs in.Quote: CasinoRickEvery game that the casino offers is a negative expectation game.
There are some good casino promotions. When you add a promotion in while playing a -EV game, that adds EV to whatever game you are playing. The right promotion can give you a +EV situation. It doesn't change the odds on the game itself. The +EV is coming from the extra money the casino is giving away to the players.
If you understood what I wrote you know know this is not true.Quote: CasinoRickIf everything everyone is saying is true, then you have to be 'cheating' in the casino to gain that edge?
I dont think anyone wants to hand feed you the information. There is tons of information on this site and all over google.
Here are some simple easy to understand AP suggestions for you to research.
Advantage play bonus slots as well. Anything by Mickey Crimm is laid out well and easy to understand.
Slot progressives, Must Hits.
Research slot/VP loss rebates
Research Edge sorting.
Research Match plays.
With AxelWolf's commentary, I think you are off to a good start. When you are ready to dig in for even MORE detailed explanations, I recommend you read all 3 of these articles by Romes:Quote: CasinoRickYou can count cards in BJ, I understand, vary your bet sizes based on that, but in reality, the dealer has just as much chance to get 20 or 21 (face cards) as you are, right?
https://wizardofvegas.com/articles/A-to-Z-Counting-Cards-in-Blackjack/
https://wizardofvegas.com/articles/A-to-Z-Counting-Cards-In-Blackjack-2/q
https://wizardofvegas.com/article/A-to-Z-Counting-Cards-In-Blackjack-3/
Don't be afraid of getting bashed for asking honest questions . . . be more afraid of the feedback you might be missing unless you provide a question with as much detail as possible (the details give those experienced players a good foundation to "address"). For example, when you play BJ, do you know
1 . . . the house edge?
2. . . . your bet spread?
3. . . . your session bankroll?
4. . . . your hourly EV (expected value) of the game you’re going to play? and
5. . . . the PEN? Don't play if < 60%, because you'll rarely get a TC to merit raising your bet.
Happy asking!
One thing to realize is that the House usually makes a practice of returning losses back to players in various forms, in order to entice them to keep gambling. Since you call yourself CasinoRick you must have experienced some of that. When they do that, they are putting themselves at slight risk, as the intention is to return a small fraction; those that do as much as 30% returned are rare. Some of this can have an inflated or false value too, fooling a player into thinking he's making out quite well when he's not. Yet it is possible to be ahead of the game, it has happened to me, this thing of being over-comped. There was a casino giving me enough freeplay including free Ace coupons that just exceeded in cash value what my expected losses were. To be sure, there was a limit to this, it didn't just keep coming, more like a once a month thing. I had to drive too far to really be making out as it covered my gas cost plus some, but I think not the true cost in car mileage. I'll say I was not deluded to think this was cheap entertainment sure enough, though.
I'm not sure how it happened, I seem to have gotten on the wrong list. Perhaps it would have come to an end; as it was, it continued until I moved even further away, then I just had to quit going.
Comps were mentioned by others, but I just wanted to emphasize this. Note that if you are the kind of gambler that runs up big expected losses, you are very likely to be comped well but probably at 30% returned at best, if more not in real cash value.
Rick please disregard anything Nathan has to say about AP(sorry Nathan, but I'm not the only one thinking that). From his posts he's proven to know almost nothing about Advantage Play. Listening to him would be -EV.Quote: NathanWelcome to WOV Rick! :) A true AP knows when to manage his money and wins. If you put in a $50 in the slot machine and it wins you $500, put $400 in the portable piggy bank that only allows you to deposit winnings and not withdraw and play with your extra $100. Let's say that extra $100 earns you $300 more. Put another $200 in there and play with yet another $100. Let's say that the machine goes cold and quickly eats the extra money putting you in the red. You thank your lucky stars that you have $600 in the portable piggy bank and go home happy to be up $550. That is a true AP. Putting most of your winnings in a PPB. :)
His piggy bank theory is pig sh*t / piggy bunk. His system might help HIM lose less money temporarily and in between gambling sessions, but that's only because it puts people in a situation where they are playing less on -EV games.
The first thing you need to learn about AP is how to tell fact from fiction. Read up on gamblers fallacy. If you or someone can't prove you have an advantage using MATH calculations (it must add up to over a 100%), there is no way you have an advantage.
Money management systems do not work. AP's should use bankroll management to keep from going broke.
I think one way in which Kentry got himself banished was evidence that he was under age 21. Should moderators also factor in something like "totally ignorant posting = de facto trolling"
case in point: a contribution to a thread that will result in hijacking the thread
When 27 is the number on a roulette spin, it's not removed from the wheel and has the same chance of coming up the next spin.
Contrast that to Blackjack, the cards played in the last hand are gone and can't be used again until the next shuffle.
The casino has a slight edge on a new deck, but after cards are removed, that edge can swing either way.
Many people exploit promotions and player clubs.
Others exploit dealer mistakes.
Quote: NathanOdious, how is telling people to put their winnings in a Winners Bank and only play with a little money a bad thing?
An advantage player is playing with an advantage and thus wants to put his money in play, not a piggy bank.
If your advice was directed to a novice slot player , it actually isn't bad, as they got lucky and shouldn't expect to keep getting lucky.
An AP doesn't count on luck.
Quote: NathanOdious, how is telling people to put their winnings in a Winners Bank and only play with a little money a bad thing?
Because the OP started a thread about whether Advantage Play is a real thing.
Oh, sure, a minor sin, and sometimes we all realize we have helped hijack a thread. It's that pattern thing that Mission was talking about when he suspended you, hoping you might learn something from it.
Quote: NathanOdious, how is telling people to put their winnings in a Winners Bank and only play with a little money a bad thing?
The way you describe it is illogical. If it was a good bet before you won, explain why it is now a bad bet after you've lost
Quote: CasinoRickI mean, if no betting system, strategy, method, or progression will ever "win in the long run" against a negative expectation game, then how is anyone considered an AP?
No one will ever be able to win in the "long run" against a negative expectation game. But there will be times when the games become positive for whatever reason:
-lots of high cards left in the deck in blackjack
-optimal play on 9-5-3-2-2-1 Deuces Wild
-enough points or cash back on other video poker
-slot progressives
-poker table with less talented players
-sportsbooks with different lines
In these cases, there may often be a negative house edge, or and Advantage to the Player. If someone only plays during these times, they can be called an Advantage Player
Quote: odiousgambitBecause the OP started a thread about whether Advantage Play is a real thing.
Oh, sure, a minor sin, and sometimes we all realize we have helped hijack a thread. It's that pattern thing that Mission was talking about when he suspended you, hoping you might learn something from it.
I thought Mission suspended me for the ill researched on my end $100 Macy's gift card fiasco. Turns out that not everyone who got 100 points/ $500 coin in got a $100 Macy's gift as I mistakenly claimed. Only ONE person got the gift card and everyone else just got a useless candle.
I do tend to go off on tangents often/tend to post slightly wrong things by mistake, and I will try hard to work on that. ;)
Quote: Nathaneveryone else just got a useless candle.
I get a gift from the University every Christmas season. This year it was some ill defined piece of sculpture with a candle. Most of my partners grumped about it, using the word useless. My GF likes burning candles so I was in the minority in considering it a good gift.
Quote: NathanI thought Mission suspended me for the ill researched on my end $100 Macy's gift card fiasco
go back and read what he said
maybe I should get off your back. If I ever see you post something that makes me think you picked something good up from this site like, I dunno, instead of saying money management is something to do with AP, saying instead, the opposite, not to fall for that because you have participated in this site for a long time and have started to learn some things
I promise to give you credit when it happens. You might want to spend some time at wizardofodds.com, like in the ask-the-wizard section.
-Quote: NathanI thought Mission suspended me for the ill researched on my end $100 Macy's gift card fiasco. Turns out that not everyone who got 100 points/ $500 coin in got a $100 Macy's gift as I mistakenly claimed. Only ONE person got the gift card and everyone else just got a useless candle.
I do tend to go off on tangents often/tend to post slightly wrong things by mistake, and I will try hard to work on that. ;)
Must you revisit this dead horse once again in its grease-spot-on-the-pavement entirety? Please just stop. Move on. Good grief.
I'm really uncomfortable saying this to you or anyone, but..here goes anyway. Please,.take it from someone who was put in her place plenty of times here when she was new to gaming and this forum: stop pretending you have good advice to give when new folks ask for a response. You don't. It's painful to read, it's so bad.
This is the stuff that will get you banned. Be a student for a year or two, read the thousands of pages just on this site/WoO about AP, promotions, optimal strategy, and start to comprehend it, then maybe you'll have substance to offer. There are also more than a few other websites and books on the subject.
Doesn't mean you can't ask questions or join discussions.
Sorry for the semi-hijack. Back to the OP.
Mustangsally did that with the craps game - she traveled around and made a ton of money. I think she described her technique somewhere on this forum.
Also, I've heard of people adding odds to someone's line bet - that would give you a +EV if you did that on a don't come bet (example: someone at the table puts 5 dollar don't pass, and backs up with a 15 dollar odds, on a 10x odds table, you could ask if you could add another 15 to their odds - if they let you, you are now playing a +EV game).
Quote: NathanWelcome to WOV Rick! :) A true AP knows when to manage his money and wins. If you put in a $50 in the slot machine and it wins you $500, put $400 in the portable piggy bank that only allows you to deposit winnings and not withdraw and play with your extra $100. Let's say that extra $100 earns you $300 more. Put another $200 in there and play with yet another $100. Let's say that the machine goes cold and quickly eats the extra money putting you in the red. You thank your lucky stars that you have $600 in the portable piggy bank and go home happy to be up $550. That is a true AP. Putting most of your winnings in a PPB. :)
Start a thread about Gulfstream. I've been interested in the place since watching the races and the Pegasus Cup. I want to know about the casino, the Pegasus, the mall, and the restaurants. What surrounds the place? Do they have their own hotel on-site, nearby cities, etc. I want to know these things, but also the things you can't learn on the internet. How far from the ocean?Quote: NathanI thought Mission suspended me for the ill researched on my end $100 Macy's gift card fiasco. Turns out that not everyone who got 100 points/ $500 coin in got a $100 Macy's gift as I mistakenly claimed. Only ONE person got the gift card and everyone else just got a useless candle.
I do tend to go off on tangents often/tend to post slightly wrong things by mistake, and I will try hard to work on that. ;)
Quote: CasinoRickHi there! I am a newly registered user on this forum. I have been reading posts here for the past few days and trying to comprehend something. What is the definition of an Advantage Player? I mean, if no betting system, strategy, method, or progression will ever "win in the long run" against a negative expectation game, then how is anyone considered an AP? You can count cards in BJ, I understand, vary your bet sizes based on that, but in reality, the dealer has just as much chance to get 20 or 21 (face cards) as you are, right? Every game that the casino offers is a negative expectation game. But, there are plenty of people out there who play in the casino for a living. How? If everything everyone is saying is true, then you have to be 'cheating' in the casino to gain that edge?
Thanks for your time and am hopeful to get responses that are not just bashing me for asking an honest question!
Axel's post summed it up well. Essentially, sometimes casinos have promotions that make a machine or table game +EV. Some games are +EV w/o any promotions. Some games "change state" while being played -- progressive machines for one, or blackjack where the edge shifts during play and frequently enough becomes a player advantage.
Quote: NathanWelcome to WOV Rick! :) A true AP knows when to manage his money and wins. If you put in a $50 in the slot machine and it wins you $500, put $400 in the portable piggy bank that only allows you to deposit winnings and not withdraw and play with your extra $100. Let's say that extra $100 earns you $300 more. Put another $200 in there and play with yet another $100. Let's say that the machine goes cold and quickly eats the extra money putting you in the red. You thank your lucky stars that you have $600 in the portable piggy bank and go home happy to be up $550. That is a true AP. Putting most of your winnings in a PPB. :)
In lieu of this post, I'm recommending a new button feature. It'll be similar to the "Thank You" button but will be a "This is a stupid post" or "Don't listen to this post" button.
Quote: slackyhackySome people can create a +EV game.
Mustangsally did that with the craps game - she traveled around and made a ton of money. I think she described her technique somewhere on this forum.
Also, I've heard of people adding odds to someone's line bet - that would give you a +EV if you did that on a don't come bet (example: someone at the table puts 5 dollar don't pass, and backs up with a 15 dollar odds, on a 10x odds table, you could ask if you could add another 15 to their odds - if they let you, you are now playing a +EV game).
Musty Sally hasn't shown anything other than a weird posting style. I suspect she makes deals with hosts to get rebates or something from her play.
Putting odds bets on someone else's bet isn't +EV. It's a 0% HE wager.
Quote: NathanWelcome to WOV Rick! :) A true AP knows when to manage his money and wins. If you put in a $50 in the slot machine and it wins you $500, put $400 in the portable piggy bank that only allows you to deposit winnings and not withdraw and play with your extra $100. Let's say that extra $100 earns you $300 more. Put another $200 in there and play with yet another $100. Let's say that the machine goes cold and quickly eats the extra money putting you in the red. You thank your lucky stars that you have $600 in the portable piggy bank and go home happy to be up $550. That is a true AP. Putting most of your winnings in a PPB. :)
This post made my night. I'll just leave it at that. I haven't laughed that hard in a while
Axel summed it up quite nicely. Playing negative EV games with either cashback or free-play via points. Playing 100% payback video poker. Counting cards at Blackjack. Controlled shooting in Craps.
Quote: Dyvan13This post made my night. I'll just leave it at that. I haven't laughed that hard in a while
Axel summed it up quite nicely. Playing negative EV games with either cashback or free-play via points. Playing 100% payback video poker. Counting cards at Blackjack. Controlled shooting in Craps.
Tryin' to lump the ol' "dice control / dice influence" voodoo legitimate advantage play, aren't'cha? :wink:
Hello Nathan. Start typing. You're making me think you might have Jedi mind ****ed Won. You've been to Gulfstream, report.Quote: onenickelmiracleStart a thread about Gulfstream. I've been interested in the place since watching the races and the Pegasus Cup. I want to know about the casino, the Pegasus, the mall, and the restaurants. What surrounds the place? Do they have their own hotel on-site, nearby cities, etc. I want to know these things, but also the things you can't learn on the internet. How far from the ocean?
Quote: LostWagesWith AxelWolf's commentary, I think you are off to a good start. When you are ready to dig in for even MORE detailed explanations, I recommend you read all 3 of these articles by Romes:
/articles/A-to-Z-Counting-Cards-in-Blackjack/
/articles/A-to-Z-Counting-Cards-In-Blackjack-2/q
/articles/A-to-Z-Counting-Cards-In-Blackjack-3/
Don't be afraid of getting bashed for folkeautomaten asking honest questions . . . be more afraid of the feedback you might be missing unless you provide a question with as much detail as possible (the details give those experienced players a good foundation to "address"). For example, when you play BJ, do you know
1 . . . the house edge?
2. . . . your bet spread?
3. . . . your session bankroll?
4. . . . your hourly EV (expected value) of the game you’re going to play? and
5. . . . the PEN? Don't play if < 60%, because you'll rarely get a TC to merit raising your bet.
Happy asking!
Very good post and input! thank you :)
Quote: NathanWelcome to WOV Rick! :) A true AP knows when to manage his money and wins. If you put in a $50 in the slot machine and it wins you $500, put $400 in the portable piggy bank that only allows you to deposit winnings and not withdraw and play with your extra $100. Let's say that extra $100 earns you $300 more. Put another $200 in there and play with yet another $100. Let's say that the machine goes cold and quickly eats the extra money putting you in the red. You thank your lucky stars that you have $600 in the portable piggy bank and go home happy to be up $550. That is a true AP. Putting most of your winnings in a PPB. :)
For comparison...this OP from July 16, 2016
Quote: DeanI have read on the internet that there is a device called The Winners Bank, where you put your winnings into the bank, lock it up, and only open it back up when you get home(Think you can only deposit winnings, but to open up the winnings, you have to use another key that you keep at home) It was created by a gambler who was tired of winning big only to put back all of his winnings right back into the casino. It seems like a really good investment, but has anyone actually used the WB to keep their winnings, and did it work out for them? The price also seems like a good deal, as it is less than many people's bankrolls(under $30.00, but I have read that someone was able to accidentally break their WB when it fell to the ground and open up, which defeats the ourpose if it's not breakproof
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/slots/26270-winners-bank-a-good-investment/
Coincidence? Doubt it.
Quote: NathanI promise I am not anyone else on this board, BBB.
Identical writing styles along with the "I read on the internet" phrase that Nathan starts most of her posts with.
Good riddance.
I might take a very small share of credit for just remembering what I've been reading on WoV almost daily since Oct 2016. The larger share of credit goes to Romes and the 3 referenced articles he's posted (my source of the good stuff above . . . ) I hope all readers can put the information to good use, especially the newbies (like me!).Quote: Roma5512Very good post and input! thank you :)
EDIT: I haven't the slightest idea where the word <folkeautomaten> above came from ("Don't be afraid of getting bashed . . .)
Quote: rsactuaryIdentical writing styles along with the "I read on the internet" phrase that Nathan starts most of her posts with.
Good riddance.
I stopped doing the "I read somewhere on the internet, " posts for the most part when a poster on this very board called me out on it and said something like. "This Nathan guy usually just says "I read somewhere on the internet, bla bla bla. " He very seldomly talks about his own first hand experiences in casinos. One of the only times he talked about his first hand experience was the infamous Macy's gift card fiasco thread wherr he ended up looking like a huge troll and got him temporarily banned when the "too good to be true," promotion was revealed completely. " That biting post was my wake up call to stop posting so many third hand experiences.
Quote: RSAxel's post summed it up well. Essentially, sometimes casinos have promotions that make a machine or table game +EV. Some games are +EV w/o any promotions. Some games "change state" while being played -- progressive machines for one, or blackjack where the edge shifts during play and frequently enough becomes a player advantage.
Well although I generally agree with you, there are not much games (if any) that are +EV without promotions. Just doesn't make any sense for the casino to offer such games..
Yes that would be +EV, and so would finding a leprechaun.Quote: Dyvan13Controlled shooting in Craps.
Quote: BellaingWell although I generally agree with you, there are not much games (if any) that are +EV without promotions. Just doesn't make any sense for the casino to offer such games..
What is there to disagree about? FPDW, 10/7 DB, I think 10/6 DDB, and some other weird games like LDW still exisf. I don't know of any that I'd consider "worth it". Makes sense for a casino to offer a 100%+ game to get people in the door, plus most people don't even know how to play the games properly.
Quote: CasinoRickHi there!
I just realized the OP has not returned to make any further comment, in this thread or otherwise.
Quote: odiousgambitI just realized the OP has not returned to make any further comment, in this thread or otherwise.
He visited for three days after, then Nathan took over with help from BBB.
Sometimes his posts are juvenile and poorly constructed; other times they're normal, i.e. as if he were indeed an intelligent adult.
Quote: MrVHave you noticed that the quality of Nathan's posts varies widely?
Sometimes his posts are juvenile and poorly constructed; other times they're normal, i.e. as if he were indeed an intelligent adult.
Wow, that's not nice to say.
Perhaps he/she has a gender/ identity crisis and multiple personalities in RL.Quote: MrVHave you noticed that the quality of Nathan's posts varies widely?
Sometimes his posts are juvenile and poorly constructed; other times they're normal, i.e. as if he were indeed an intelligent adult.
United states of Tara.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4CQkG-dBZk&list=PLsPFxzU2xkLNowqumKp6tDJ1iSUNPgV7d
Quote: AxelWolfPerhaps he/she has a gender/ identity crisis and multiple personalities in RL.
United states of Tara.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4CQkG-dBZk&list=PLsPFxzU2xkLNowqumKp6tDJ1iSUNPgV7d
I still stand behind my idea that dean, Nathan, and Kentry are at least 2 people but they know each other. Maybe married, maybe roommates. So when Nathan said they weren't dean, that particular person writing at the time is not dean.
Quote: RSWow, that's not nice to say.
I am merely commenting about the content and structure of a member's posts, not about the member himself / herself.
As such it is fair comment under the rules.
I mentioned it because I cannot come up with a plausible, "innocent" explanation for the seeming differences.
Nobody had mentioned this perceived inconsistency before, so I brought it up.
I'm pretty sure this thread once had a gambling-related subject, and that Nathan wasn't it.
Quote: jerijerrNobody is going to pounce on you Rick, in fact there is a degree of relief in being able to recognize a straight up question untarnished by gambling fallacies or trolling urges.
is there an echo in here?
