Should I ask for a refund? Was I ripped off? Opinions Please!

I confess! I'm a total Craps Noob... and as they say a fool and his money are soon parted...

On the other hand if this is my only bad craps gaming investment I'm probably in good shape...

I could also have lost a more money actually gambling with this material. But I'd like to hear your opinion anyway.

Hindsight beimg 20/20 - I shoulda. coulda, woulda bought some really good Craps books on amazon ALL for less than $97!

So I saw the following YouTube and It seemed to "sound" ok... and I ordered

Al Kaufman's "Pass no Pass System"
Al Kaufman's "Pass no Pass System"

I put down my $97 dollars and all I received was the MP4 video file to the original publicly postedYouTube.

No charts, manual, or any other information other than the Youtube.

When I called to complain Al Kaufman started trying to "upsell" me a $500 private class. During our conversation he admitted he was "retired" and living in florida and no longer gambling.

So what's the verdict? Should I place a complaint through Paypal and demand a refund?

Also just out of curiosity I'd love to hear a consensus about Al's so-called "Pass no Pass System"?

Opinions?

Thanks in advance,

TG

I sell MY system for $9.70.

Its called the NO Pass, Pass system.

Works just as well though.

My private sessions are at a rate of $50.00 an hour. You'll get just as bored.

File a chargeback with your credit card company. Tell them that you feel like you were defrauded by being sold a copy of a public YouTube video.


ZCore13

Yes, get a refund and say you were defrauded (or frauded?).

Quote: Zcore13

File a chargeback with your credit card company. Tell them that you feel like you were defrauded by being sold a copy of a public YouTube video.


ZCore13

Agree. Best course of action.

What exactly would it take for you to not expect a refund? We're all amused but $97 is a lot of money. You could have bought a unicorn for $97 or a time machine if you get my point.

Quote: tgparker

I confess! I'm a total Craps Noob... and as they say a fool and his money are soon parted... TG

Hi TG,
Welcome to the forum.

20/20 hindsight is wonderful, and I apologise for laughing out loud when I read your mention of Al Kaufman. £97 LMAO. Sorry dude, you got stiffed, big time.

Here's a free tip: None of Al's free videos on youtube are worth the $0 that you have to pay to watch them, except maybe for comedy value.
He is an absolute shyster ! Indeed, if you can find a system seller that isn't a complete shyster, then go and get your eyes tested and as we in the UK say, get your bumps read.

If you want to see how brilliantly pathetic 'Professor' Al Kaufman is, then see how he totally beats the hell out of Blackjack. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjX0EYR3rfc

That's not a real tip, by the way. His Blackjack system is total bunkum, just like any other stuff he says.

Regards,
OD

I commented on your other thread too, but will just repeat that you are going to have to rely on your own discretion to some degree - there is a lot of junk out there and you need to be able to recognize it.

The pass/don't pass strategy I'm guessing is about making both of those bets simultaneously and then betting rightside-only on free odds. It's seductive, I admit, but it doesn't work because it has you putting twice as much money on the line bets - each bet having a house edge working against it. The rightside odds bet can be made anyway, so to say it works is to say hedging works - one of the first things a newbie needs to realize doesn't work.

Your $97 video looks like it was filmed in 1990 from the strip pictures. Most of the marquee signs in the intro are long gone and Al was 20+ years younger at the time. He was/is running a classic gambling scam where he plays with your money with a system and keeps part of the winnings if he wins and tells you it was bad luck if he loses.

At least you didn't hook up with Ed "The Professor" Horowitz, one of my favorite 80's TV Handicappers, who fronted for the best/ worst of them Mike "Warren" Lasky.

I wish you well in your quest for craps knowledge as long as you understand there is nothing out there that will allow you to beat the game long term. The only people making money are the casinos and those like Al selling or scamming*

*and a few guys who can control the dice.

Quote: tgparker

Also just out of curiosity I'd love to hear a consensus about Al's so-called "Pass no Pass System"?

Someone posted his Blackjack video a few months ago and I tried it using Casino Verit'e.

I managed to increase the bankroll from $2,200 to $8,000 in about 550 hands before quitting.

I reshuffled after every winning hand to simulate changing tables as the system requires.

The results were pure chance. I would never try the system in a real game.

I also ran multiple trials of his craps system using WinCraps Pro and my bankroll always busted before 90 rolls.

That has to be the worst craps system ever devised.

Try to get a refund. Also, file a complaint with the Better Business Bureau if possible, and post your experience in YouTube to warn others.

Well I, for one, have learned something from the thread (and Google).

Quote: OnceDear

...get your bumps read.

Can hardly wait to use it in a sentence. I think it won't be long. Where someone will have no idea what language was just spoken. Because some things are better that way.

Quote: Boz

Your $97 video looks like it was filmed in 1990 from the strip pictures. Most of the marquee signs in the intro are long gone and Al was 20+ years younger at the time. He was/is running a classic gambling scam where he plays with your money with a system and keeps part of the winnings if he wins and tells you it was bad luck if he loses.

At least you didn't hook up with Ed "The Professor" Horowitz, one of my favorite 80's TV Handicappers, who fronted for the best/ worst of them Mike "Warren" Lasky.

I wish you well in your quest for craps knowledge as long as you understand there is nothing out there that will allow you to beat the game long term. The only people making money are the casinos and those like Al selling or scamming*

*and a few guys who can control the dice.

That's funny because when I was watching his YouTube video, thought to myself, the only winning system is gambling with someone else's money, then you say he does this.

Quote: tgparker

I confess! I'm a total Craps Noob... and as they say a fool and his money are soon parted...

On the other hand if this is my only bad craps gaming investment I'm probably in good shape...

I could also have lost a more money actually gambling with this material. But I'd like to hear your opinion anyway.

Hindsight beimg 20/20 - I shoulda. coulda, woulda bought some really good Craps books on amazon ALL for less than $97!

So I saw the following YouTube and It seemed to "sound" ok... and I ordered

Al Kaufman's "Pass no Pass System"
https://youtu.be/TUwXLpRciyk
Al Kaufman's "Pass no Pass System"

I put down my $97 dollars and all I received was the MP4 video file to the original publicly postedYouTube.

No charts, manual, or any other information other than the Youtube.

When I called to complain Al Kaufman started trying to "upsell" me a $500 private class. During our conversation he admitted he was "retired" and living in florida and no longer gambling.

So what's the verdict? Should I place a complaint through Paypal and demand a refund?

Also just out of curiosity I'd love to hear a consensus about Al's so-called "Pass no Pass System"?

Opinions?

Thanks in advance,

TG

Get your money back. He charged you almost $100 for a copy of a free Youtube video and then tried to get you to pay $500 for a private class. The scoundrel scammer! Thank God not only did you not fall for the $500 "private class" you were able to get him to admit that he doesn't even gamble anymore!

I filed an escalated Paypal dispute... Hopefully I get my money back...
When I do get the refund, I'll order some good but used books on Craps from Amazon for $1...

Any suggestions?

Thanks,

Quote: tgparker

I filed an escalated Paypal dispute... Hopefully I get my money back...
When I do get the refund, I'll order some good but used books on Craps from Amazon for $1...

Any suggestions?

Thanks,

I suggest that studying Craps from books is futile.

What do you hope to learn? How the game works? What the pay-tables mean? Which bets are better or worse? Which bets are more fun? Which money management system will make losing less painful?

For all those questions, this site and WizardOfOdds.com will give you hours of good reading.

If you hope to find a book that gives valuable instruction on how to throw the dice, then you won't find that here, because most here would assert that that is of no value, except as an exercise of self delusion.

You might find a book that describes how various money management systems or betting systems can 'shape' the way that you lose your money, e.g. lots of small wins with a few massive losses or the other way about, or ways to smooth out and pace your rate of losses. But make no bones about it. No book or video or lessons will show you how to win.

Why do I think that's what you are looking for?

I am learning to navigate my way safely though an ocean of often conflicting input from crazies, crack-pots, scamsters, con artists, trolls, and even a few well meaning bona-fide, legitimate experts. I am learning to listen but not necessarily believe everything that I am being told, and most importantly now I only very, very, carefully make my own decisions and actions. I am a member of several forums & groups, and now I verify and confirm very carefully everything I'm being told on multiple sources before believing ANYTHING. I've had enough and heard enough from the self proclaimed experts and gurus.. From now on I'm taking my own sweet time and not allowing myself to be stampeded, conned, hassled, hustled, or anyone...

Quote: tgparker

From now on I'm taking my own sweet time and not allowing myself to be stampeded, conned, hassled, hustled, or anyone...

Very wise.

There's nothing particularly enticing or seductive about folks like me telling you that there is no Holy Grail. I can see that. And of course, some of the writers and supporters of the opposite viewpoint can be far more encouraging, seductive and evangelical. Underlying all your own subjectivity is possibly some deep seated belief that 'there must be some way'. Recognise your own bias.

But all is not lost. Even nay-sayers like myself can and will go to casinos and play negative expectation games and get great value from the experience. Some of us even manage to win more than we lose, which is a nice bonus. As my dear old Dad used to say "If you are in the game and having fun, then you are already a winner"

But from time to time, we encounter perfectly ordinary guys who believe 'There must be something' and we watch them flush away their salary, their savings, their inheritance, their everything. For even the most grounded of us, that abyss is just a few steps away.

Have fun. Enjoy your quest.
OD

Quote: tgparker

I am learning to navigate my way safely though an ocean of often conflicting input from crazies, crack-pots, scamsters, con artists, trolls, and even a few well meaning bona-fide, legitimate experts. I am learning to listen but not necessarily believe everything that I am being told, and most importantly now I only very, very, carefully make my own decisions and actions. I am a member of several forums & groups, and now I verify and confirm very carefully everything I'm being told on multiple sources before believing ANYTHING. I've had enough and heard enough from the self proclaimed experts and gurus.. From now on I'm taking my own sweet time and not allowing myself to be stampeded, conned, hassled, hustled, or anyone...

Investigating gambling in general and Craps in particular can definitely be an exercise in "wandering in a wilderness" ... it's good you now recognize this. And it is clear this wilderness exploration is what you are doing, from the way you are describing it. I hope you recognize the better sites by now - if you feel they are all the same, and the 'experts' are all the same, then take even more of your sweet time on the sidelines until the veil lifts.

I agree btw that Craps books are just as likely as anything to be worthless or even harmful. A book on beginning statistical math would be very reliable and give you a good grounding to judge things.

Quote: odiousgambit

A book on beginning statistical math would be very reliable and give you a good grounding to judge things.

And don't be fooled. Stats can be easy and fun!!!
Juggling with and understanding the way probabilities work can be quite an eye opener. As you develop an understanding of stats, you will see how some of these shysters can bamboozle you and you can even see how you can choose to become a consistent winner or a drop deads loser.

For example, with very little understanding, you can almost guarantee that you will walk away from a craps table with a $100 profit over each of 95% of visits . And that's the kind of Holy Grail that some folks will 'sell' to you. But the knowledge of stats can tell you when and when not to buy into it.*

*There are a few times when doing so is wise :o)