Spirit Mountain Casino
No, Spirit Mtn. is not empty, but its parking lots are no longer full or nearly full; just by eye-balling I'd estimate buiness is down about forty per cent.
Ouch.
One way I gauge things is by the ease of getting onto the craps table; back when it was hopping it was nearly impossible to get on it during peak times, but not any more.
Weirdly, the casino just installed a bubble craps game next to the main craps table: the bubble craps had more action than the real thing.
The players were all pretty young: millenials, mostly.
Casino's here on the east coast that have little competition often have high crowds, high limits, 6-5 blackjack, and stingy VP payouts.
I haven't played VLTs much. Not that I have populously avoided them, I just haven't been in too many situations where there was a good reason to play them. The few times I have played them I won.Quote: ParadigmIlani is pretty nice...visited for the first time in mid June. The only advantage Spirit Mountain has is that I believe Oregon slots are true RNG machines whereas WA slots are VLT's. Over time I would expect Ilani's table biz to continue to increase and Spirit Mountain's table game action to decrease...slots biz may be OK, but it is still almost 75 miles to Spirit Mountain from Portland and only 25 miles to Ilani....
Assuming the overall payback is the same(I know it's not on VP)... Does it really matter if you are playing an RNG or a VLT on SLOTS?
Let's say they guaranteed an overall 99.5% payback
+ good cash back / free play on VP on a VLT, would you guys refuse to play it? I would be very cautious when playing a promotion that paid a bonus on specific hands or a progressive, but I don't think I would just disregard a casino with a possible good situation because it used VLT's.
Am I wrong to think a VLT would be the same as an RNG in the long run(assuming the same payback percentage)?
Do VLT's usually have significantly lower payback percentages on slots than slots using RNG's?
Quote: AxelWolfI haven't played VLTs much. Not that I have populously avoided them, I just haven't been in too many situations where there was a good reason to play them. The few times I have played them I won.
Assuming the overall payback is the same(I know it's not on VP)... Does it really matter if you are playing an RNG or a VLT on SLOTS?
Let's say they guaranteed an overall 99.5% payback
+ good cash back / free play on VP on a VLT, would you guys refuse to play it? I would be very cautious when playing a promotion that paid a bonus on specific hands or a progressive, but I don't think I would just disregard a casino with a possible good situation because it used VLT's.
Am I wrong to think a VLT would be the same as an RNG in the long run(assuming the same payback percentage)?
Do VLT's usually have significantly lower payback percentages on slots than slots using RNG's?
For slots, the virtual pull tab system in WA state (or NY racinos) should be pretty similar to slot machines in states with individual RNGs. If both were set to 85%, you wouldn't really notice a difference.
Heck in the NY racinos, I would suggest slot players to actually play there. The racinos' minimum payback is 90% (highest in the nation, iirc) and is 5% higher than their NY State RNG-driven casino counterparts.
Quote: RSI remember listening to a GWAE show and the guy on the show was talking about class II vs III machines.....and said to the player, both are the same on a slot machine, IIRC.
I have worked on both and yes, they are effectively the same. The one caveat to that was Washington used to have virtual drums where the wins were drawn from. If you see somebody else hit a jackpot you can assume there is now one less jackpot in the drum so the odds are constantly changing.
Quote: AxelWolfI haven't played VLTs much. Not that I have populously avoided them, I just haven't been in too many situations where there was a good reason to play them. The few times I have played them I won.
Assuming the overall payback is the same(I know it's not on VP)... Does it really matter if you are playing an RNG or a VLT on SLOTS?
Let's say they guaranteed an overall 99.5% payback
+ good cash back / free play on VP on a VLT, would you guys refuse to play it? I would be very cautious when playing a promotion that paid a bonus on specific hands or a progressive, but I don't think I would just disregard a casino with a possible good situation because it used VLT's.
Am I wrong to think a VLT would be the same as an RNG in the long run(assuming the same payback percentage)?
Do VLT's usually have significantly lower payback percentages on slots than slots using RNG's?
Don't quote me in this, but from an AP's perspective, I would assume it is big difference. My reasoning behind this is that for VLTs, because they are basically pull tab prize banks in electronic form, without knowing what prizes have already been hit and removed from the prize pool, your EV may be much less than expected if several high end payoffs have already been hit and removed from the possible outcomes.
A loose comparison would be playing a scratch off game knowing all of the jackpots have already been won.
And what if you know none of the large prizes have been hit? Such as on those pull tabs... say you know there are 10 in the lot of 1000 that have a $500 payday or higher. Say you know all 10 are still in there and there are 100 left. Sure, changes the odds... in your favor.Quote: mrsuit31... if several high end payoffs have already been hit and removed from the possible outcomes.
A loose comparison would be playing a scratch off game knowing all of the jackpots have already been won.
Quote: RomesAnd what if you know none of the large prizes have been hit? Such as on those pull tabs... say you know there are 10 in the lot of 1000 that have a $500 payday or higher. Say you know all 10 are still in there and there are 100 left. Sure, changes the odds... in your favor.
I've always thought about a possible vulture type situation existing. However, I'm sure the prize banks are way to large to keep track of any of that, and simply not worth the time...
I honestly don't 100% know how they function, but that is my understanding (which may be flawed)...
Quote: mrsuit31Don't quote me in this, but from an AP's perspective, I would assume it is big difference. My reasoning behind this is that for VLTs, because they are basically pull tab prize banks in electronic form, without knowing what prizes have already been hit and removed from the prize pool, your EV may be much less than expected if several high end payoffs have already been hit and removed from the possible outcomes.
A loose comparison would be playing a scratch off game knowing all of the jackpots have already been won.
Except....you don't know if the jackpots have been hit or not. If you do know -- then go ahead and take advantage of it. Not knowing is different.
Quote: RSExcept....you don't know if the jackpots have been hit or not. If you do know -- then go ahead and take advantage of it. Not knowing is different.
Sort'a like card counting. Many of the high cards you're anticipating COULD BE behind the cut card and you may never see them....but unless you know they are behind the cut card, it doesn't matter.
I don't disagree with that and it actually relates to my later post about the possibility of a vulturing type situation. But in answering Axel's question, as I read it at least, I think there can be a very big difference in regard to APing a VLT vs RNG machine as I understand it. That's all...
Quote: RSExcept....you don't know if the jackpots have been hit or not. If you do know -- then go ahead and take advantage of it. Not knowing is different.
Sort'a like card counting. Many of the high cards you're anticipating COULD BE behind the cut card and you may never see them....but unless you know they are behind the cut card, it doesn't matter.
The problem is also that the casino usually doesn't draw until the end of the drum. I remember some casinos starting over after drawing 50%. It is just like the shuffle up in Blackjack.
Quote: DRich
The problem is also that the casino usually doesn't draw until the end of the drum. I remember some casinos starting over after drawing 50%. It is just like the shuffle up in Blackjack.
would there be any legal way of finding this out? also finding out how many machines are tied to a 'drum'? i assume it'd be all the same machines on one property, is it possible all the machines on all properties?
if it were all identical machines in one location, and you knew how often the 'drum' was refilled, perhaps you could 'back count' the number of pulls you witness other people play and how many jackpots go out.
probably not worth the effort, but in theory would this be possible?
Quote: MrV
Weirdly, the casino just installed a bubble craps game next to the main craps table: the bubble craps had more action than the real thing.
The players were all pretty young: millenials, mostly.
It's an interesting thing. Vegas, granted limited sample size, but I almost never saw anyone on any of the Shoot to Lose machines except, I think, El Cortez.
Go to any other casinos here, there or anywhere, and it seems that these machines are more popular than the physical Craps tables. I want to say that the same thing is true for the E-Roulette machines.
There are a few reasons for that, I suppose. Ignoring any other (actual) AP-Related reasons, which we won't be getting into today, Slots/VP games tend to earn points better than tables at most casinos, so there's your reason number one.
I would suggest that reason number two is lower minimums, I usually see Shoot-to-Lose Craps at $3 and the Roulette thing at $2, whereas both of those games at the physical tables run $5/$10 depending on the day and shift at the casinos to which I make reference. $15 at a few other casinos, in fact.
The third reason is that it is arguably easier to make your bets since they are all player service, I mean, the thing gives you an ample amount of time to make your bets.
The fourth reason kind of relates back to both reasons two and three, and that is you lose your money more slowly (on Craps). The Shoot to Lose Craps tends to play slower than a physical Craps Table, (in my experience and observation) although Roulette is probably about the same.
The fifth reason (which is a combination) is that the other players don't really affect you. You don't get jostled, you don't have physical chips to worry about keeping an eye on, you don't have to worry about a dealer mispaying and all of these machines are built with plenty of room to sit...so it's arguably a more comfortable experience.
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The Craps is the Craps, so you have reduced minimums and pays that get rounded to a penny on Place Bets and the like, and you earn points (sometimes) so it's arguably a better value at some places. If you really don't care about player/crew interaction or rolling the dice, then the E-Craps is basically the better value all the way, in my opinion.
I don't know why on the Roulette, other than reduced minimums and being able to put increments of $0.25 on a bet to a number, corner, etc. if you want to. I can't figure how the E-Roulette machines are at all enjoyable, but they get action, and sometimes more than the physical Roulette table. In fact, I know of one casino with minimums of $5 on the E-Roulette and minimums of $1 on the old-school stand up Video Roulette. I have never seen anyone on the old school stand up ones, though, those are usually nickel denomination anytime I've seen them.
I think I better get more serious about strategy and bubble craps if there really is a way since max odds can be selected for every bet.
