monet0412
monet0412
Joined: Feb 18, 2016
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July 14th, 2017 at 7:02:48 PM permalink
Quote: Mission146



NOTE

Pretty much nothing I have said above is an advanced tactic of any kind. The post above is mainly for recreational players who are not necessarily all that familiar with loss rebates. There are some more advanced tactics I could talk about, but won't, because I will be hunted and killed if I do.



I feel like this note had posters like me or me in mind when it was written. I was skimming through all of your post thinking uh huh and uh huh and I get to the end and I can't help but feel suckered in some way. How can one refute anything said after such a disclaimer is written at the bottom!?
Mission146
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Mission146
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July 14th, 2017 at 7:13:54 PM permalink
Quote: monet0412



I feel like this note had posters like me or me in mind when it was written. I was skimming through all of your post thinking uh huh and uh huh and I get to the end and I can't help but feel suckered in some way. How can one refute anything said after such a disclaimer is written at the bottom!?



Well, I guess I have a multi-part answer for that:

1.) It (the disclaimer) was written with AP's in mind, those are just basic loss rebate tactics. I'm not going to talk about the most advanced tactics publicly because, if I do, then they will be caused to no longer be viable. There are only a limited number of machines upon which the most advanced tactics can be employed.

2.) You can refute anything I said if it is actually wrong, but none of it is wrong, in my opinion. It was never meant to be a, "Best way to do this," type of thing.

3.) It's a post rather than an article, so it should just be held to the standards of a post.

4.) I could tell you the BEST ways to play a loss rebate, but what possible point could telling you something that I am sure you already know serve? That's not sarcasm, I'm being completely literal. You know more about machine play than I do, so I am going to extrapolate that into the assumption that you know as much or more about Loss Rebates as I do.

SHORT ANSWER: I don't feel like I know anything that machine AP's don't know (or at least should know) about Loss Rebates.
Vultures can't be choosers.
Actuarial
Actuarial
Joined: Apr 23, 2014
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July 14th, 2017 at 7:47:07 PM permalink
Thanks for the detailed response. I didn't even consider high-limit slot machines.

And you definitely hit the nail on the head - I'm just a rec player and put some entertainment value driving a few hours away and getting out of town for a night.

Maybe in a decade or so when I'm considering retirement and looking to focus more on being an AP I'll be concerned with (redacted)

Just for kicks though, I thought of two possibilities for gaming the system:

Find an old school VP machine, put players card in, and pull out (always pull out) if you are drawing on a made hand or to a high severity-weighted draw (i.e. 4 to a royal). No idea how the player's card software works, but if it is then there you go.

Second would obviously be to play the table games and rat hole chips while the boss isn't looking. Buy in $500 in reds and greens, mix your bets up, and just let a green slide down your sleeve as you're taking a sip of your favorite cocktail!
Mission146
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Mission146
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July 14th, 2017 at 10:58:02 PM permalink
Quote: Actuarial

Thanks for the detailed response. I didn't even consider high-limit slot machines.

And you definitely hit the nail on the head - I'm just a rec player and put some entertainment value driving a few hours away and getting out of town for a night.

Maybe in a decade or so when I'm considering retirement and looking to focus more on being an AP I'll be concerned with (redacted)

Just for kicks though, I thought of two possibilities for gaming the system:

Find an old school VP machine, put players card in, and pull out (always pull out) if you are drawing on a made hand or to a high severity-weighted draw (i.e. 4 to a royal). No idea how the player's card software works, but if it is then there you go.

Second would obviously be to play the table games and rat hole chips while the boss isn't looking. Buy in $500 in reds and greens, mix your bets up, and just let a green slide down your sleeve as you're taking a sip of your favorite cocktail!



1.) You're welcome, those are the way to go in your case, though VP is probably better.

2.) With respect to your first idea, that could possibly work, but most software is going to attribute the result of the hand to your card even if you pull it out before drawing. You could probably test it by losing $20, or something like that, in terms of what your shown losses should be and then going and asking where you are at on losses. You'll get a funny look. If they say anything less than $20, then you will know that method doesn't work. Also, could get caught. Not saying it's likely, but it's possible.

Meantime, you get a dealt winner what, 20.62% of the time, something like that? If you look at 9/5 Jacks, you end up with nothing 54.5% of the time anyway, so that's going to go up to about 75% on the hands that your card is in for.

Also, you're needing to show $500 in losses, so any hands you do win just buy you more hands with which to hope for dealt winners. It's tough to say what your overall return would be on the hands that you'll actually have your card in for because you're generally not going to be drawing to very good hands, certainly not drawing to any dealt winners.

It's a pretty good method, though. You'll show a loss of $500 without actually losing $500. Maybe finish ahead, overall. Expectation is still based on overall coin-in, of course, and while it's possible to figure out what your overall coin-in should be, I really don't feel like it. Either way, you'll expect to have a non-zero actual loss and then you'll make the money on the back end when you collect the rebate. Keep in mind that you don't necessarily expect to come out ahead a ton and you're absolutely locking yourself into having to pick up the rebate because you're locking yourself into showing a loss.

It's basically a lock that you would profit, but I'd be surprised if it was enough to make three trips worth the time. If you lived right next to the casino, maybe.

3.) Table games are a terrible idea, in general, because Free Play is worth more than Match Play. Generally, they give you Match Play chips if they let you do tables, at least on any rebates that I have heard of. Furthermore, how much do you really plan to rathole? I know you want to show a loss of the entire $500, but trust me, if they catch that you are rat holing don't be surprised if they seriously underestimate your actual loss, maybe even say you didn't lose anything at all.

Promotional chips are almost as bad as Match Play, in terms of value, especially if you are relegated to Even Money bets...and they often are. No matter what, Free Play is more valuable. The only way tables are as good is if you get non-negotiable chips.

4.) Neither of those are either of the two things that I was thinking, but please don't keep guessing. If I wanted to publicly say what they are I would have, so I'll neither confirm nor deny anything else. I will further discuss the two things you already brought up if you have any questions, though.
Vultures can't be choosers.

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