Pennsylvania Skill
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I saw one of these in a bar last night for the first time but didn't play. Anyone know anything about them? Are they fairly new? Did a law change to allow this type of machine in bars?
I know this because they tried to get away with it in Ohio, and if you watch the videos on the site linked in the OP, you will see what I mean.
If you hit two of something, (you need three for a line) or two of multiple things, the game will either occasionally or always give you thirty seconds to make a spot Wild. Do not make a losing combination Wild, that is the, 'Skill Element.' If you make a losing combination Wild, then you will lose. You could also make a non-Optimal (but winning) combination Wild by not making the highest paying combination Wild.
In other words, the skill factor is to understand the implications (pays) of one number being bigger than another and to choose your Wild spot in such a way that you get paid the biggest number.
It's a slot machine that can essentially be only played non-optimally if you're an idiot, at least, most of the time. Occasionally, you might have the choice between Free Games or a high-paying combination that might be a head-scratcher since you don't know what the average value of Free Games are.
Anyway, what should define a, 'Skill-Game,' and in most states does, is that the, 'Skill Component,' be such that a player would have a reasonable and long-term expectation of winning if the game is played Optimally. That is not going to be the case on these machines.
Another one that Ohio had (that I don't know if these guys have) is one where you can look at the, 'Next Puzzle," ahead of time. Basically, you look at the, 'Next Puzzle,' and you only bet if you know you'll win and that was the, 'Skill Component.' What you were really doing is effectively betting on the puzzle after that, which you knew nothing about, and most players just played it like a regular slot machine without looking at the, 'Next Puzzle,' ahead of time anyway.
Lets test some out in your bar. We can negotiate a fair deal.Quote: Boz"Legal" in PA because the PLCB is short staffed and way behind on enforcement. My advice to bar owners is be cautious. Vending operators are pushing these now because they haven't been busted yet, but by no means has the state ruled that they are "legal" in PA. For most bar owners the fines and risk of license suspensions are not worth it but there are always a few small out of way bars willing to try it.
Quote: Boz"Legal" in PA because the PLCB is short staffed and way behind on enforcement. My advice to bar owners is be cautious. Vending operators are pushing these now because they haven't been busted yet, but by no means has the state ruled that they are "legal" in PA. For most bar owners the fines and risk of license suspensions are not worth it but there are always a few small out of way bars willing to try it.
That's kind of the point that I was making, and the states are always behind the 8-Ball on these kinds of things. Like I said, these sorts of things are legal until they are not, which basically is when they are decided not to be skill games.
As far as any product placement is concerned, I wouldn't be willing to pay a lot for them, but I think a lot comes down to how friendly you are with your jurisdictional guys and how much heat your area draws in general. In Pennsylvania, for instance, you always see the Cherry Master units which, almost unfailingly, are labeled, "For Amusement Only," but actual cash gets paid out at several locations. In some cases, it's a matter of whether or not you are a known person there, and in others, they just let everyone play them and print tickets. You've got restaurants where cops eat, bars where cops drink, and they all just let it go. Kickbacks? Sometimes, but most places with the Cherry Master only have one or two units, anyway.
I would not say it is limited to out of the way bars, the Cherry Masters are absolutely NOT legal and are not even arguably a game of skill, but I could give you several locations in Pittsburgh (mostly the 'burbs, but hardly, 'Out of the way,') and I'll even venture forth on Monday and take pictures if you don't believe me.
This place wasn't a club bar though.
Quote: gamerfreakFWIW I see pull tab machines all the time in PA, but always at private club bars which have a different set of rules. The liquor laws in PA are stupid.
This place wasn't a club bar though.
The Cherry Masters I have seen are not, 'Pull tab machines," I don't think, and have certainly not always been at private clubs. Hell, not even all the places I have seen them have some form of alcohol or another.
As for the Cherry Master machines, they are absolutely illegal when they have a "knockdown" device on them to clear and pay credits. But that does not stop some bars, and also many ethic grocery stores from having them. It's all about risk to reward and also a willingness to gamble on not getting busted. The larger more profitable bars will not risk having them for multiple reasons including potential tax issues if busted, suspension of license and just the hassle of the clientele they bring. In PA in most cases you will find them in a smoker corner neighborhood bar when the owner knows most of the customers and doesn't have food or higher margin craft beers to help pay the bills.
As for the potential of state run VP in bars, several bills have been introduced in the State House. Most face immediate objections from the casino lobby due to fear of competition. But with the state continuing to try and find new revenue sources I believe it will happen in the future. Some bar owners are already are working on plans based on the outline of options in the bills. It would be 100% state run with approved vendors placing the machines (between 5 & 10) in bars and restaurants with liquor licenses. This seems similar to a route in Vegas placing machines in bars. All machines would be linked to a state computer and the bar would never touch cash. A TITO machine would be placed in each location. The proposed split naturally favors the state but there is potential for the vendors and bar owners.
Quote: Boz
As for the Cherry Master machines, they are absolutely illegal when they have a "knockdown" device on them to clear and pay credits. But that does not stop some bars, and also many ethic grocery stores from having them. It's all about risk to reward and also a willingness to gamble on not getting busted. The larger more profitable bars will not risk having them for multiple reasons including potential tax issues if busted, suspension of license and just the hassle of the clientele they bring. In PA in most cases you will find them in a smoker corner neighborhood bar when the owner knows most of the customers and doesn't have food or higher margin craft beers to help pay the bills.
I think that is usually true, but I am also aware of a smoke shop (no liquor) that has them as well as three restaurants. One of the three restaurants is a diner that also sells craft beers whereas the other restaurant is actually a really popular Mediterranean restaurant (reservations suggested on weekends) that also has a bar with the Cherry Master being right near the bathrooms. The last restaurant is a lounge sort of deal with decent American food.
As far as I know, kids are allowed in there, but you wouldn't normally bring kids to such a restaurant, except the diner place.
I really just think how much they are cracked down on (which changes the, 'Risk,' side of the equation) depends on the locality. It seems they may be more risky on your side of the state. You'd be surprised how frequently you would see the ones with the, 'Knockdown,' device in the Pittsburgh area. The authorities almost CAN'T have any interest in doing anything about them given how prevalent they are.
Quote:As for the potential of state run VP in bars, several bills have been introduced in the State House. Most face immediate objections from the casino lobby due to fear of competition. But with the state continuing to try and find new revenue sources I believe it will happen in the future. Some bar owners are already are working on plans based on the outline of options in the bills. It would be 100% state run with approved vendors placing the machines (between 5 & 10) in bars and restaurants with liquor licenses. This seems similar to a route in Vegas placing machines in bars. All machines would be linked to a state computer and the bar would never touch cash. A TITO machine would be placed in each location. The proposed split naturally favors the state but there is potential for the vendors and bar owners.
I think that it probably well and that it should, screw the casino lobby, it's been great for State Revenues as well as for new small businesses in the State of West Virginia. It has also been great for employment with several, 'Parlors,' having sprung up since the legalization of same at businesses that are basically nothing except the machines, $1.00-$2.00 beers and giveaway pops, coffee, bottles of water and snacks. Some of the places have other foodstuffs for sale, and some don't. Some sell beer (carry-out) and cigarettes, and some don't. A few of them are in what used to be just residences!
Everything else you describe, except the TITO machines, are basically exactly how West Virginia does it. 'Private Clubs,' may have ten machines and everyone else may have five. The places in WV may have optional TITO machines for the players, but most of the WV parlors handle cash and cash out the tickets by hand. The machines in WV, going back to an old law before the casino expansion (and before WV even had parlors) cannot accept bills larger than $20.
There are also maximum bet limits and maximum possible wins, but I can't remember what they are and don't feel like looking them up right this second.
Definitely better EV playing pinball.
Quote: CB3These machines are still legal, with thousands on the streets. you an view the next puzzle at any time, have to place your wild card, and at anytime you can win 104% of your money back if you win equal or less than value that you bet. all part of the skill and legal aspect of the game. if you have any other questions feel free to hit me with them
Could you post the general strategy of the game, along with the math that shows 104% return?
how many plays can you get pet day @ 104%?Quote: gamerfreakCould you post the general strategy of the game, along with the math that shows 104% return?
That's the key, there's lots of plays that are + EV that dwarf 104%, however they are rare to find.
Quote: AxelWolfhow many plays can you get pet day @ 104%?
That's the key, there's lots of plays that are + EV that dwarf 104%, however they are rare to find.
I've been able to gather that much at casinos, although I don't have the time or bankroll to take advantage most of the time.
I'm just skeptical about a first time poster reviving a months old thread claiming 104% on a proprietary game.
. Also there is no amount of times oyou can do this, you can do this everytime you win less than your bet, so if you bet 4 dollars (highest bet level) you can essentially win $4.16 every single spin. The $0.16 is so minor that even if you sit there for 8 hours you will walk away with just $2.56 more than you put in. if you didnt have any winners at all.Quote: Btony94The 104% return is from a mini game titled "follow me" its essentially just a variation of Simon Says, if you bet and spin and there isn't a winner you can elect to play "follow me". If you win "follow me" you get your bet back from the previous spin plus an additional 4%. That being said "follow me" takes about a half an hour or more to complete and is the most challenging aspect of the game. Realistically people can always win their money back, but 99% of the time elect not to out of laziness or because it would be quicker to spin again for the chance to win more money.
Quote: CB3These machines are still legal, with thousands on the streets. you an view the next puzzle at any time, have to place your wild card, and at anytime you can win 104% of your money back if you win equal or less than value that you bet. all part of the skill and legal aspect of the game. if you have any other questions feel free to hit me with them
They are in many bars in PA with them being pushing by vending companies along with startups pushing them. A week doesn't go by where I'm contacted by a few trying to get them in my place. They say the machines are making hundreds a week in profit for the owner and the vendor to split so they are getting played.i have also heard for customers they are "impossible " to beat and people are tiring of them already so they may be a short term fad. It would be nice to have a par sheet and the math on them.
Of bigger interest in PA is the state legislature working on legalizing gaming in bars and airports. The bill is going back and forth between the Hpuse and Senate with both having different ideas but it should get done. Penn National Gaming (Hollywood, The Trop LV) is already sending mailers out trying to get bars to use them as your vendor.
I guess some bar owners are hungrier than others (although their mouthpieces will say 'misinformed').
Legal does not mean 'related to common sense'.
Skill does not require winning, only decision making affecting outcome, not a favorable outcome or a desirable outcome, simply the outcome.
Here in Florida we used to have a zillion or so Internet Cafes wherein people went to RENT internet time and could visit ANY site they wanted to. The fact that they were in a FREE WIFI zone meant nothing nor did the fact that only 'merchandise' could be awarded as prizes because a lawyer told them that a preloaded debit card is merchandise.
Sheriffs had a field day but the average take was five grand a month according to the trade group making the guarantees to the owners who opened up the places and leased the machines. The association paid legal fees too. I took a tour of one very small place that had just opened and it was largely retirees enjoying the air conditioning, the coffee and their eight dollars an hour access to the internet that they could access for free anywhere in the shopping center. Place made a mint, but do gooders forced a relocation due to a school being so close to it. Owner relocated to a larger but more distant place voluntarily. This was eons ago though.
I think it may be pretty much the same in Pennsylvania. Technically illegal but few complaints and much more serious matters for the sheriff to attend to. Too many lawyers whose fees are paid by the machine vendor, not the bar/club/whatever in which they are installed.
Use this too your advantage and push to get a par sheet before you decide.Quote: BozThey are in many bars in PA with them being pushing by vending companies along with startups pushing them. A week doesn't go by where I'm contacted by a few trying to get them in my place\.
Quote: CB3I highly suggest putting them in your place, the split is 20% off the top, for the license fee, then 50% share for each. There is a ton of money to be made, with no inventory for the store owner.
I disagree at this point though I am all for the introduction of casino run VP and slots along with online gaming in the state. The decision one has to make as a Business owner is what type of business do you want to run. With the stories I am hearing on PA skill is that they are killing all the marks already, who will be left to play? Also you run the risk of reducing staff tips when people lose every dollar or at a minimum spend more than they wanted to spend on the visit. Does that make them less likely to return the next time? Not sure but again most of the places I see them being placed in are more corner bar type places compared to restaurants.
This is not an anti gambling stance, it is more of a concern with these machines, who is behind them and who is regulating them. Obviously the answer is no one willing to answer the questions. I see this as a short term cash grab by people not thinking long term, instead of trying to build a business. Bottom line is while the bar owner has no inventory or skin in the game, he is the face to the customers if it turns out these were are scam from the start with little chance for the player to win. Then they are the ones risking their business reputation while the operators move on to the next thing.
Making a couple hundred extra a week is not worth it to some to risk their business reputation. But for others it's the perfect addition to maybe make the difference in keeping the doors open.
Quote: katie29bajIncorrect. These are deemed legal because unlike the Cherry Masters, they are considered to be games of SKILL rather than games of CHANCE. The specific PA Skill games which have recently begun to appear in bars, restaurants, gas stations, and clubs, are legal and do not fall under PLCB regulations. I can't get the link to share on here that explains the legality but it's on the mielamusements dot com page (when I put that all together and try to post it, it deletes it!) followed by a slash then pa-skill-games (when I try to post the link it erases half of it...) So www dot mielamusements dot com slash pa--skill-games
You cannot post links because you have an insufficient number of lifetime posts. Should you like to PM me the link, I will happily either add it to your post (if I can) or quote your post and post it myself provided it is not Spam and does not have competing advertisements.
Quote: katie29bajIncorrect. These are deemed legal because unlike the Cherry Masters, they are considered to be games of SKILL rather than games of CHANCE. The specific PA Skill games which have recently begun to appear in bars, restaurants, gas stations, and clubs, are legal and do not fall under PLCB regulations. I can't get the link to share on here that explains the legality but it's on the mielamusements dot com page (when I put that all together and try to post it, it deletes it!) followed by a slash then pa-skill-games (when I try to post the link it erases half of it...) So www dot mielamusements dot com slash pa--skill-games
https://www.mieleamusements.com/pa-skill-games
I have approved the link proper:
https://www.mieleamusements.com/pa-skill-games
Quote: Mission146I have approved the link proper:
https://www.mieleamusements.com/pa-skill-games
This is a link to a vending company who places these machines in bars for a living. For most part these machines have come and gone in my area, dying a quick death when players gave up on them. I assume it is because they lacked the proper “skill” to win.
But Thank you for the information and welcome to the forum!
That seems crystal clear.Quote: CrystalMathThree new members in one thread. They're all trying to sell games.
Quote: Mission146It may not be the proper sub-forum for that, and I'm definitely going to be more hesitant to post anymore links, but they don't seem to compete with any of our business interests. Besides that, these companies could be a legitimate interest for individuals who operate applicable establishments in PA.
My concern is that they are clearly biased on the interpretation of the law because of their business interest. Three new members popping up to make a few comments also seems like two fake profiles to back up the first one. I definitely wouldn't stand behind it.
Quote: CrystalMathMy concern is that they are clearly biased on the interpretation of the law because of their business interest. Three new members popping up to make a few comments also seems like two fake profiles to back up the first one. I definitely wouldn't stand behind it.
I don’t stand behind the product at all, don’t know enough to do so. In the meantime, I’m just saying that they could be a legitimate interest should any concerned parties (PA bar owners) happen upon the thread.
I’ll check those accounts for Dupes and will Nuke accordingly, if so, since you bring it up.
Quote: Mission146I don’t stand behind the product at all, don’t know enough to do so. In the meantime, I’m just saying that they could be a legitimate interest should any concerned parties (PA bar owners) happen upon the thread.
I’ll check those accounts for Dupes and will Nuke accordingly, if so, since you bring it up.
UPDATE:
CB3 matches BTony4 (or whatever it is) and both are Nuked for Multiple Accounts. Katie does not match anybody.
Please let this thread be remembered for those who sometimes like to accuse me of targeting (no present parties in this thread apply) as you can see, I clearly do not go checking everyone for Matching IP’s unless it is obvious to me or someone makes a request.
In fact raids continue monthly in PA as a simple search will show. Bottom line is still for each individual owner to determine if the risk is worth the reward.
That's my point about the individual owners who could happen upon this thread. I've been around and have seen bars, restaurants and tobacco shops with the Cherry Masters, so that's what tells me that there could be a legitimate interest in these products.
I'm going to edit this as soon as you tell me you've read it, but when you talk about bars like (redacted) in which a police officer is one of the regulars. Restaurants like (redacted), which is a highly acclaimed place. Whatever one of the tobacco places in (redacted) is called. A restaurant like (redacted) which serves beer and is open 24/7 some nights and is where the on-duty cops eat when you can't even go to their bathroom without walking past the darn things.
Those types of places know that the cops aren't going to bat an eye, because they already don't. So, the thread is legitimate in the sense that an owner of a place like that might be interested in the product. Ultimately, it's for the owners to decide what they think they can or cannot do legally, or if illegal, what they can or cannot get away with, not me.
If this thread were simply a discussion of the legality, it would be fine, but we have unknown members advertising dubious games.
Reality is you are fine unless you come under the microscope because someone complains, then they find anything and everything. We all deal with the same thing with food inspectors. The first thing, rightly so is they check temperatures to ensure you are holding food at the correct levels, are dating products correctly, using proper handling techniques and are serving safe foods. If you are not risking customers health they address and allow you to fix minor issues without penalty. But open the door and they can be your worst enemy.
That is where I see the “illegal” gambling issue. It’s all good making the money while you can, but when you are the guy that gets reported because someone lost their paycheck, be prepared to deal with the consequences. Again, risk to reward. And with the prices being paid by Sheetz, Wawa, Turkey Hill and other for licenses, the value of clean Liquor Licenses in a PA has never been higher.
Quote: CrystalMathAlthough it may be useful to someone, so are U.K. Kitchens.
If this thread were simply a discussion of the legality, it would be fine, but we have unknown members advertising dubious games.
I'll kind of stipulate that, but then I would also suggest that actually looking at the sites for the games (to see the games) and reading what it says lends to the discussion of whether or not they are legal.
Quote: BozAnd that is my point. Local and in some cases State Police have far more important issues to deal with, as they should and do overlook small violations. Most of us agree that gambling is a mostly victimless crime, but that doesn’t help when you are the guy singled out. All of us break the antiquated PA liquor laws on a daily basis if you look into them. Examples include it is illegal to serve alcohol to a known prostitute, a law on the book since prohibition in PA. Obviously an old example but still on the books. Others include the inability to promote more than one beer special a day. Again many of us violate it. And every LCB (which is the State Police) officer I have ever met doesn’t care unless you are under investigation for other violations.
I know exactly what you mean, "Add-On," offenses I like to call them. They often get applied to driving. It's, "Hello, sir, sorry to stop you but you need to get that running light fixed," if you're sober...but drunk and it's a separate charge. I know that some State Legislator (or something along those lines) got in trouble for something related to turning a blind eye to the machines in the area I was talking about, or maybe he was actually involved in their sale or revenue collection, I forget the details. Either way, we know the Cherry Masters are not legal...unless they are actually set to, "For amusement only," and do not print tickets at all.
Quote:Reality is you are fine unless you come under the microscope because someone complains, then they find anything and everything. We all deal with the same thing with food inspectors. The first thing, rightly so is they check temperatures to ensure you are holding food at the correct levels, are dating products correctly, using proper handling techniques and are serving safe foods. If you are not risking customers health they address and allow you to fix minor issues without penalty. But open the door and they can be your worst enemy.
Same thing with the Fire Marshal in Ohio and hotel inspections. You have County Boards of Health, too, but the State Fire Marshal also inspects for health as well as fire-related stuff. Get caught on something fairly egregious, or he just doesn't like you, then you've got seven days to fix it. Immediate shutdown if it's bad enough (never happened to me) minor stuff and they give you thirty days. Technically, they should inspect every single guest room, but if they're happy enough after public areas and a handful of rooms, they'll give you thirty days to fix the minor stuff and call it a day.
Quote:That is where I see the “illegal” gambling issue. It’s all good making the money while you can, but when you are the guy that gets reported because someone lost their paycheck, be prepared to deal with the consequences. Again, risk to reward. And with the prices being paid by Sheetz, Wawa, Turkey Hill and other for licenses, the value of clean Liquor Licenses in a PA has never been higher.
I agree with that 100%, as well. Especially with the recent expansion of legalized gambling in the state (including online) and who knows what else that could eventually turn into. Truck stop parlors and airports also legalized, apparently. If they go the full monte and just allow all kinds of parlors, (like WV and IL have and are similar to what is now allowed for truck stops) you're REALLY going to see the value of a clean license go up!
Quote: billryanI had a guy lose his paycheck in a Broadway Poker and the next day his wife came in screaming and threatening to call the cops. Our policy was to be nice and give the irate person back some money. As little as possible. If they lost $500, offer $100. If the wife gets involved, it cost more. That's usually more than enough to calm down the wife. In this case, wife went food shopping with $200 and the husband was hooked on our customer service, and owed me the $200.
screw that guy what a welch
I appreciate any info you guys can provide. Very thankful.
How do you get the 'Simon Says' mini-game?Quote: Btony94The 104% return is from a mini game titled "follow me" its essentially just a variation of Simon Says, if you bet and spin and there isn't a winner you can elect to play "follow me". If you win "follow me" you get your bet back from the previous spin plus an additional 4%. That being said "follow me" takes about a half an hour or more to complete and is the most challenging aspect of the game. Realistically people can always win their money back, but 99% of the time elect not to out of laziness or because it would be quicker to spin again for the chance to win more money.
is it random?
I've only seen it once in many hrs I've played and that was on the machine next to me.
and I tried to ask the person about it but he didn't speak English. :(
Update on the status of these games in PA. In my area they showed up almost everywhere and are now mostly gone. But I hear they are still all over the larger cities in small corner stores.
Quote: Bozhttps://www.pennlive.com/news/2018/06/back-of-the-room_gambling_find.html
Update on the status of these games in PA. In my area they showed up almost everywhere and are now mostly gone. But I hear they are still all over the larger cities in small corner stores.
Here is an article about these games, now that they have finally made their way to a place near me:
https://wizardofvegas.com/articles/pace-o-auto-matic/
They pretty much work exactly like the games I described at the hotel I once managed in Ohio, until the State of Ohio kicked out all of the skill games (except the ones for merchandise vouchers).
Quote: Mission146Here is an article about these games, now that they have finally made their way to a place near me:
https://wizardofvegas.com/articles/pace-o-auto-matic/
They pretty much work exactly like the games I described at the hotel I once managed in Ohio, until the State of Ohio kicked out all of the skill games (except the ones for merchandise vouchers).
Pace invented the pot o gold machines as well
I’m pretty sure it’s an electronic pull ticket machine at heart
Quote: heatmapPace invented the pot o gold machines as well
I’m pretty sure it’s an electronic pull ticket machine at heart
Here's another article about three different machines (Banilla Games is the manufacturer of all three) that can be found:
https://wizardofvegas.com/articles/pennsylvania-no-skill-games/
I visited [spam link removed] last week.
