Cruise Ship Reset Progressives
They took them all offline on day 1 while we were docked and reset them all individually.
At one point during the cruise, they also took 3 moneyball machines offline and reset all the balls to 5.
I was under the impression cruise lines followed the CLIA, which according to them means "CLIA’s members have adopted a policy that all equipment purchased and installed on cruise vessels will meet the regulatory standards of the Nevada Gaming Control Board or other licensed jurisdiction for payback and internal software."
I thought they typically have to move this money into other things, which makes me wonder if they moved them to a different ship? If not, what happened to all that player contributed money, did it just disappear?
Overall, it makes me trust cruise casinos even less than I already did
Quote: DJTeddyBearSeen on the wall next to the casino cage on Royal Caribbean. July 2018.
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Interesting, I have never seen that on Carnival, and I typically look for all of the signs like that. But, that must explain it. Surprised they don't do this more often.
Quote: Elbee
I was under the impression cruise lines followed the CLIA, which according to them means "CLIA’s members have adopted a policy that all equipment purchased and installed on cruise vessels will meet the regulatory standards of the Nevada Gaming Control Board or other licensed jurisdiction for payback and internal software."
I thought they typically have to move this money into other things, which makes me wonder if they moved them to a different ship? If not, what happened to all that player contributed money, did it just disappear?
Overall, it makes me trust cruise casinos even less than I already did
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"CLIA’s members have adopted a policy that all equipment purchased and installed on cruise vessels will meet the regulatory standards of the Nevada Gaming Control Board or other licensed jurisdiction for payback and internal software."
Clearing the progressives does not invalidate the above statement. The equipment still meets the standards, it is the operation of the equipment that is being handled differently. As the operator of the equipment, the policy makes sense as it adds extra revenue and the players that contributed that money are no longer on the ship so it is not negatively impacting the players that contributed the money.
Quote: DRichQuote: Elbee
I was under the impression cruise lines followed the CLIA, which according to them means "CLIA’s members have adopted a policy that all equipment purchased and installed on cruise vessels will meet the regulatory standards of the Nevada Gaming Control Board or other licensed jurisdiction for payback and internal software."
I thought they typically have to move this money into other things, which makes me wonder if they moved them to a different ship? If not, what happened to all that player contributed money, did it just disappear?
Overall, it makes me trust cruise casinos even less than I already did
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"CLIA’s members have adopted a policy that all equipment purchased and installed on cruise vessels will meet the regulatory standards of the Nevada Gaming Control Board or other licensed jurisdiction for payback and internal software."
Clearing the progressives does not invalidate the above statement. The equipment still meets the standards, it is the operation of the equipment that is being handled differently. As the operator of the equipment, the policy makes sense as it adds extra revenue and the players that contributed that money are no longer on the ship so it is not negatively impacting the players that contributed the money.
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Would you be okay with a land casino doing this? They could say "well, the players who contributed the money have left the casino and gone home, and now we have new players".
Gimme a break. This is a crock.
Quote: KevinAA
Would you be okay with a land casino doing this? They could say "well, the players who contributed the money have left the casino and gone home, and now we have new players".
Gimme a break. This is a crock.
I do not agree with it, but who is being hurt or mislead? The only expectation for the player is that they will be paid the amount on the meter when the outcome is hit.
The one I would dispute is when two people hit a progressive at about the same time. Generally, it is paid to the person that they believe hit it first. I would argue both should b paid the amount, if that amount was displayed at the initiation of the spin. At that point a player is expecting that payout if they achieve the outcome because that was the amount displayed when the wager took place. I think I could successfully argue that in front of the Nevada Gaming Control Board.
Quote: DRichQuote: KevinAA
Would you be okay with a land casino doing this? They could say "well, the players who contributed the money have left the casino and gone home, and now we have new players".
Gimme a break. This is a crock.
I do not agree with it, but who is being hurt or mislead? The only expectation for the player is that they will be paid the amount on the meter when the outcome is hit.
The one I would dispute is when two people hit a progressive at about the same time. Generally, it is paid to the person that they believe hit it first. I would argue both should b paid the amount, if that amount was displayed at the initiation of the spin. At that point a player is expecting that payout if they achieve the outcome because that was the amount displayed when the wager took place. I think I could successfully argue that in front of the Nevada Gaming Control Board.
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The moneyball machines were evidently reset mid-cruise. That seems pretty sleazy, if true.
Quote: DRichQuote: Elbee
I was under the impression cruise lines followed the CLIA, which according to them means "CLIA’s members have adopted a policy that all equipment purchased and installed on cruise vessels will meet the regulatory standards of the Nevada Gaming Control Board or other licensed jurisdiction for payback and internal software."
I thought they typically have to move this money into other things, which makes me wonder if they moved them to a different ship? If not, what happened to all that player contributed money, did it just disappear?
Overall, it makes me trust cruise casinos even less than I already did
link to original post
"CLIA’s members have adopted a policy that all equipment purchased and installed on cruise vessels will meet the regulatory standards of the Nevada Gaming Control Board or other licensed jurisdiction for payback and internal software."
Clearing the progressives does not invalidate the above statement. The equipment still meets the standards, it is the operation of the equipment that is being handled differently. As the operator of the equipment, the policy makes sense as it adds extra revenue and the players that contributed that money are no longer on the ship so it is not negatively impacting the players that contributed the money.
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What about back to back cruisers? Almost all cruises have back to back cruisers, and they tend to be casino guests stringing together offers. My next one had 50+ of back to back cruisers.
I guess back to backers technically "get off the ship" for a brief enough time where you could still apply this logic.
Actually, I'll add. when they reset the moneyball mid cruise , they reset the major as well. I didn't notice until I looked at the reflection in a picture I took.
I guess I can't add pictures though.
That being said, when you push the button to play, you are aware of what the progressive stands at, so if you don’t like the fact that the cruise company might be taking the money that ‘should’ go to some future player, then don’t play it!
And the ship that had the sign alerting players about the nefarious reset, good for that company!
It is the wild wild west on the water.
Quote: itsmejeffCLIA is not a gaming commission. It is a club for cruise lines. The gambling regulations are based on Nevada law, but the CLIA website is clear that all audits are done by the cruise line itself for the gambling department as a whole and not individual casinos on ship. They are expected to police themselves. CLIA does not send inspectors to each ship. The cruise lines do not even have to do that.
It is the wild wild west on the water.
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I think I mentioned before on this website that I was hired by Carnival around 2020 to be over all of the casinos electronic gaming devices for all of their ships and all of the companies that they own (ie. Carnival, Princess, Holland America, etc). At the time I believe it was 103 ships. Then COVID happened and they all shut down. Since I wasn't technically an employee yet the force majeure clause kicked in and I wasn't going to be paid until everything was back open. I moved on. I don't know how I would have handled this progressive situation.
Quote: DRich<snip>
I think I mentioned before on this website that I was hired by Carnival around 2020 to be over all of the casinos electronic gaming devices for all of their ships and all of the companies that they own (ie. Carnival, Princess, Holland America, etc). At the time I believe it was 103 ships. Then COVID happened and they all shut down. Since I wasn't technically an employee yet the force majeure clause kicked in and I wasn't going to be paid until everything was back open. I moved on. I don't know how I would have handled this progressive situation.
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DRich,
I hope you would have handled it... progressively!
Here's an idea: refund the money to the players who played the machine. Let's say during the cruise the machine's handle was $100,000 and at the end of the cruise the progressive is $2,500 above the reset value. Refund the $2,500 to each player in proportion to his contribution to the handle. If Player A played $2,000 on the machine in question (2% of the handle), Player A gets back 2% of $2,500, or $50.
Granted, that doesn't sound like much, but if Player A played similar amounts on half a dozen such machines, Player A's refund would be roughly $300.
Dog Hand
Is it possible that both were hit while you weren’t paying attention?Quote: Elbee…
Actually, I'll add. when they reset the moneyball mid cruise , they reset the major as well. I didn't notice until I looked at the reflection in a picture I took.
…
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Quote: DogHand
DRich,
I hope you would have handled it... progressively!
Here's an idea: refund the money to the players who played the machine. Let's say during the cruise the machine's handle was $100,000 and at the end of the cruise the progressive is $2,500 above the reset value. Refund the $2,500 to each player in proportion to his contribution to the handle. If Player A played $2,000 on the machine in question (2% of the handle), Player A gets back 2% of $2,500, or $50.
Granted, that doesn't sound like much, but if Player A played similar amounts on half a dozen such machines, Player A's refund would be roughly $300.
Dog Hand
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Why would the casino refund it to the players that lost the money? If the casino isn't going to keep the money just leave it on the progressives.
Quote: DJTeddyBearIs it possible that both were hit while you weren’t paying attention?Quote: Elbee…
Actually, I'll add. when they reset the moneyball mid cruise , they reset the major as well. I didn't notice until I looked at the reflection in a picture I took.
…
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I don't think so, I basically lived in that casino and it was far too coincidental it was at exactly its reset point, not a cent more. After reading through the responses in this thread and looking more into what the CLIA actually is, I've come to the conclusion they clearly have unlimited flexibility to reset progressives. For what it's worth, a long time ago a buddy and I got drunk with someone who was pretty high up in the casino corporate chain for Carnival, and he wasn't direct when we asked him about how cruise ships operate their casinos, but he did say they have significantly more "flexibility" to do what they want compared to land casinos.
Also, for the moneyballs that got reset - I forgot to mention it seems like they changed the programming to one of them. They added the "gamble" button that did not exist before into the interface. You know, the button you can press after you win to gamble the card games suit to 4x or color to 2x. That's what I took a picture of and only then noticed the major progressive was reset in the photo. I can't confirm if they reset the major to the other 2 moneyballs they took offline or not, but I'm pretty sure they did reset those balls to. So I'm not sure what exactly they did or why they did it.
I have seen some properties where the major, grand, etc "jackpots" are locked at the reset value.
Quote: DieterAny chance they disabled the progressive accumulators?
I have seen some properties where the major, grand, etc "jackpots" are locked at the reset value.
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They may have done that after they took the machines offline, at that point I wasn't paying attention to the majors. I do have photos of the same machine having a higher than $1,000 major, and it continuously climbing in value before they took them offline.
Just to make it weirder, they only took 3/6 of them offline and added the gamble button to one machine. All 6 were moneyball, just 3 were dragon and 3 were tiger.
I'm not surprised by the inconsistent programming; they're kind of slipshod... my favorite was a VP unit that paid out points at slot rates.
Quote: smoothgrhI concluded that cruise lines will do anything for money (up to the line of outright) theft when I saw that they’d award a flat $400 for a bingo no matter how many people are playing and how many tickets they sold.
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For such a strictly regulated environment (according to the official story) cruises are like the Wild West, except you can't bring your gun, play Faro in the casino, or run to the hills if things get too rough.
Quote: AutomaticMonkeyQuote: smoothgrhI concluded that cruise lines will do anything for money (up to the line of outright) theft when I saw that they’d award a flat $400 for a bingo no matter how many people are playing and how many tickets they sold.
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For such a strictly regulated environment (according to the official story) cruises are like the Wild West, except you can't bring your gun, play Faro in the casino, or run to the hills if things get too rough.
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Why, it's almost like Panama is a different country with different laws.
Quote: DieterQuote: AutomaticMonkeyQuote: smoothgrhI concluded that cruise lines will do anything for money (up to the line of outright) theft when I saw that they’d award a flat $400 for a bingo no matter how many people are playing and how many tickets they sold.
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For such a strictly regulated environment (according to the official story) cruises are like the Wild West, except you can't bring your gun, play Faro in the casino, or run to the hills if things get too rough.
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Why, it's almost like Panama is a different country with different laws.
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Very complicated. What a ship is flagged with and where its corporation is based are not necessarily the same thing. And the ship's officers were usually commissioned by their own countries (I was on one cruise where they were all Italians and another where they were all Swedes) and they have to follow the laws that pertain to the conditions of their license. Then they have to follow local gambling laws when in port, which is why they don't open the casino until they are outside of territorial waters.
Thus I don't count on any legal protections on a cruise- no idea what applies to what, when and where. Just stay out of trouble, stay away from conflict, avoid the public restrooms if possible (that's where you get sick, because that's where other people are being sick) and cash all cheques and vouchers every time you leave the casino.
Quote: AutomaticMonkeyQuote: Dieter
Why, it's almost like Panama is a different country with different laws.
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Very complicated. What a ship is flagged with and where its corporation is based are not necessarily the same thing. And the ship's officers were usually commissioned by their own countries (I was on one cruise where they were all Italians and another where they were all Swedes) and they have to follow the laws that pertain to the conditions of their license. Then they have to follow local gambling laws when in port, which is why they don't open the casino until they are outside of territorial waters.
Thus I don't count on any legal protections on a cruise- no idea what applies to what, when and where. Just stay out of trouble, stay away from conflict, avoid the public restrooms if possible (that's where you get sick, because that's where other people are being sick) and cash all cheques and vouchers every time you leave the casino.
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If a shipboard dispute goes to court for resolution, what jurisdiction would that be? The ship's flag country?
Quote: DieterQuote: AutomaticMonkeyQuote: Dieter
Why, it's almost like Panama is a different country with different laws.
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Very complicated. What a ship is flagged with and where its corporation is based are not necessarily the same thing. And the ship's officers were usually commissioned by their own countries (I was on one cruise where they were all Italians and another where they were all Swedes) and they have to follow the laws that pertain to the conditions of their license. Then they have to follow local gambling laws when in port, which is why they don't open the casino until they are outside of territorial waters.
Thus I don't count on any legal protections on a cruise- no idea what applies to what, when and where. Just stay out of trouble, stay away from conflict, avoid the public restrooms if possible (that's where you get sick, because that's where other people are being sick) and cash all cheques and vouchers every time you leave the casino.
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If a shipboard dispute goes to court for resolution, what jurisdiction would that be? The ship's flag country?
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Ambiguous and arbitrary. Historically, yes the flag state. But if it involves Americans on a ship that left a US port the US claims authority, at least in criminal matters. If it involves wrongdoing by ship's officers, whatever country licensed them and called them officers gets a crack at them. If it happened in someone's claimed territorial waters, even if that claim is not universally recognized, they can claim jurisdiction and see if anyone is willing to accept that. If it's a civil claim against the cruise line itself, wherever it is incorporated or anyplace they have a headquarters or assets might take your case. So ultimately it will be handled by "anyone who wants it" and realistically, for a claim against the casino's business practices that's probably going to be "nobody."
The ships I've been on have had a sign that clearly says "card counting and cheating are not allowed" and that if they think you have been counting or cheating (which they are implying are related) they will seize your funds, and being the captain can take things from you on board that could apply to cashed out winnings as well. Not sure if they actually would but it's enough to make me play and act conservatively when on a ship to avoid any attention like this to begin with.
Even the few violent altercations in the casino (mostly punches or thrown glasses) I've seen just resulted in security standing between people trying to get them to calm down.
