Former Revel TEN

Quote: mcallister3200

This logic is based on the fallacy that casinos are run by rational people making rational decisions. They, by in large, are not.

I actually agree with the meaning behind your statement, but not in the particular case of smoking. I will grant that it is very much a market-by-market decision in the sense that you may have a market in which what I will term, 'Adamant non-smokers,' outnumber what I will term, 'Adamant smokers,' on an actual revenue basis.

I would love nothing more than to see a Vegas casino try it, I truly mean that. I think that the gaming win/table and gaming win/machine would tell the story as compared to comparably sized casinos in the market. I also honestly believe that a Vegas casino could be 100% non-smoking and succeed because that, in and of itself, could be part of the marketing.

If you had a 100% NS casino that otherwise did things right, or at least did things the way other casinos do, then you would have a truly apples-to-apples comparison as to whether or not it works in concept. Revel was not apples-to-apples because they failed so spectacularly in so many other ways.

Anyway, even though the failure of Revel technically benefits my side of the argument I dismiss it as inapplicable. Unfortunately, I don't think there is any true case study in this regard. The casinos that can allow indoor smoking do and many casinos that cannot install facilities that have both games and smoking that meet the legal definition of being outdoors.

Mountaineer Casino in West Virginia just went to great lengths to build one after their county passed a ban that applied only to that casino, (and the parlors in the county) but they were concerned about losing some smokers to Wheeling Island, Rivers and Meadows. Their, 'Outdoor,' smoking area even has table games. In fact, it even had $5 BJ whereas BJ was $10 minimum inside, granted it was only one table, but still...

Once again Straub is saying Ten will open on June 15 with just hotel rooms and no casino. He estimates 1500-2000 rooms will be open. If I see a job fair then I'll believe it.
http://www.pressofatlanticcity.com/news/breaking/atlantic-city-former-revel-may-open-june-owner-glenn-straub/article_fa92aa44-cf5c-5edc-a396-f358d5de9a33.html

Quote: Mission146

It has also been mentioned that casinos, 'Do fine,' in markets in which everyone is on equal footing by being Legislated to be non-smoking. While that may be true, certainly some revenue is lost by way of not allowing smoking indoors because, if not, why would so many casinos choose to do it? Why would literally almost every casino in which it is allowed choose to allow it?

I think "literally almost every" casino allows smoking because "we've always done it that way." In the Biloxi area, all but one casino allows smoking on the gaming floor. But, those smoke-filled casinos have hundreds of hotel rooms in their 10+ story resort hotels, of which fewer than 25 percent of the floors have rooms for smokers. When I ask why the apparent disparity, no one knows. Go figure.

Quote: Mission146

...In Las Vegas, I really think you have enough people in and out of the city for whom a 100% non-smoking property would be a big enough draw.

In Biloxi, the Palace Casino showcases the fact it is the only totally non-smoking casino, and the casino seems to be doing reasonably well. It's 234 rooms are far fewer than its competitors, but easily match others for quality. AAA gives it a 4-Diamond rating. The gaming floor has more space between machines than "average," which makes it so much easier to move around. In other casinos, friends/spouses watching a player often make passage difficult, and Palace is noticeably better in this regard. The craps tables have room for onlookers without blocking people passing by. It doesn't take long to think to yourself, "Hey, I like this!" (Unless, of course, you are one of the 20% of Americans who smoke.)

Revel was a massive Fu%3 Up ! 2.5 billion blown away in no time. Morgan Stanley Execs got their bonuses while loosing shareholder money. Kevin DeSanctis, CEO of Revel and other execs got their initial pay outs. State of NJ loses money on the deal... and who is held accountable? Well, I guess we are still having that debate. Was it the management? Was it the design team? Was it the location? Was it PA, MD, DE and others for allowing gaming in their states?

I say it was a combination of all... with an emphasis on the stupid management and horrible design. The first time I walked into the joint, I had to circle around 4 times before I could find the craps table which was right in front of the FU#$$% stage which was playing music louder than a Van Halen concert. I couldn't hear a thing. I was screaming out my bets and the dealers just kept saying ' louder please'. I wonder how many times people got away with saying that they told the dealers they were 'off' on the last roll but they didn't hear them. I would have been a valid argument every time. Then I circled another 4 times before I could find a place to get some quick food.... oh yea, no quick , only fine restaurants which required you to sit and order and take up at least an hour of your time. Needless to say, I never went back.

As for the smoking.. Im not a smoker but I understand that all vices feed each other.. Alcohol, gambling, smoking , sex... Matches the casino to a tee. I have no problem with a smoking section with excellent an ventilation system. Smoke em if you got em! I think destinations like Vegas and AC can get away with being all NS because most customers are traveling and on vacay and have options as to where they stay. I local casinos , you are preying upon the local market and the patrons more likely have multiple habits.

I would like to see a list on casinos that are non-smoking and not mandated to be that way. Palace in Biloxi was mentioned but I don't know of any other big ones.

Quote: LuckyPhow

I think "literally almost every" casino allows smoking because "we've always done it that way." In the Biloxi area, all but one casino allows smoking on the gaming floor. But, those smoke-filled casinos have hundreds of hotel rooms in their 10+ story resort hotels, of which fewer than 25 percent of the floors have rooms for smokers. When I ask why the apparent disparity, no one knows. Go figure.

I can't tell you what the reason is for down there, but I can say that some states legislate that only a certain percentage of rooms may be smoking. Some franchises also have such a rule in place, but I doubt that would be applicable, here.

Again, I would still posit that the casinos other than Palace Casino believe it is more profitable to allow smoking and to have smoking rooms or they would not be doing it. I wonder if there is ever a night in which at least one smoking room is occupied, but not all of the non-smoking rooms are sold out...if so, then that is at least one customer that would prefer to have a smoking room.

I'm not saying that every single casino on Earth that allows smoking is operating optimally, I'm merely suggesting that it is probably the best possible decision for several casinos if they are allowed to do it.

Quote:

In Biloxi, the Palace Casino showcases the fact it is the only totally non-smoking casino, and the casino seems to be doing reasonably well. It's 234 rooms are far fewer than its competitors, but easily match others for quality. AAA gives it a 4-Diamond rating. The gaming floor has more space between machines than "average," which makes it so much easier to move around. In other casinos, friends/spouses watching a player often make passage difficult, and Palace is noticeably better in this regard. The craps tables have room for onlookers without blocking people passing by. It doesn't take long to think to yourself, "Hey, I like this!" (Unless, of course, you are one of the 20% of Americans who smoke.)

That's an excellent way for them to market it, I would definitely push that, too. Like I said, a non-smoking casino can definitely do well as long as it is doing everything else right. The Palace Casino shows that a non-smoking casino can perform well against competition that allows smoking on its gaming floor. Although, the Palace seems to have lower rack rates than the other Biloxi casinos, but there could be a number of reasons for that.

Quote: DRich

I would like to see a list on casinos that are non-smoking and not mandated to be that way. Palace in Biloxi was mentioned but I don't know of any other big ones.

I think that all Florida casinos except the seminoles are no smoking

Quote: Wizardofnothing

I think that all Florida casinos except the seminoles are no smoking

Yes, they are, but by state mandate, not by choice. I think Drich is looking for those, like the Palace, that have made a marketing choice rather than complying with the law.