IRS wants to use your casino card to track winnings!

I believe this has been discussed before.
http://www.pressofatlanticcity.com/business/irs-wants-to-use-casino-comp-cards-to-track-taxes/article_8731359a-147c-11e5-9b5f-5baa3de96d01.html
http://www.miamiherald.com/news/state/florida/article23220882.html

This is like using EZ pass to issue speeding tickets. If they actually did this, no one would use EZ pass or the casino cards.

Here's my post from April 25th....I take back that last sentence.....




http://www.uspoker.com/blog/effects-of-irs-proposal-to-lower-taxable-amount-to-600/9808/

This is an interesting article on how lowering the threshold to $600 would effect play on machines and VP.



The other "not mentioned" changes would be a cumulative $600. They are looking into tracking smaller wins on the same machine. With today's technology and the ability to track a players sessions the IRS is looking into how to monitor sessions with smaller wins that total the $600 threshold. The only way around that would be not to use your players card. I don't think that would or could happen though.

The next step would to require a players card.

If this goes through then not only would the casino card have to be forcibly used but also each spin may have to be "locked" or something and a pin reinserted.

Otherwise here is a possible scenario.

You go and lose two hundred dollars and in disgust, you leave your players card inserted.

The person who sits behind you sees a golden opportunity to not be concerned with his taxes and starts playing using your card. After several hours he is eight or nine hundred bucks up. At the end of the year, you get the tax bill.

What part of gambling does the IRS not understand? People lose at everything long term. If they didn't the casino would be unable to stay in business and pay taxes on their profits.
Our government is broke, desparate, and out of control. People need to stand against this kind of tyranny. Our forefathers are turning in their graves. The government will not be happy until they get to confiscate 50% of the money that passes across a casino floor, like the lottery. You know what's sad? People would probably still play.
This would be double taxation squared if it passes. Pathetic.
Are they going to allow winners to deduct the cost of their vacation? It is a necessary expense to generate the win, after all. Are they going to create a limited loss deduction for all of the losers? Like the stock market.

I have no particular objection, so long as I can use my win/loss statements (derived from the same data) as documentation of losses.

If the player tracking data is good enough to document a win, it ought to be good enough to document a loss.

Quote: MaxPen

What part of gambling does the IRS not understand? People lose at everything long term. If they didn't the casino would be unable to stay in business and pay taxes on their profits.
Our government is broke, desparate, and out of control. People need to stand against this kind of tyranny. Our forefathers are turning in their graves. The government will not be happy until they get to confiscate 50% of the money that passes across a casino floor, like the lottery. You know what's sad? People would probably still play.
This would be double taxation squared if it passes. Pathetic.
Are they going to allow winners to deduct the cost of their vacation? It is a necessary expense to generate the win, after all. Are they going to create a limited loss deduction for all of the losers? Like the stock market.

I agree with this. If they are going to tax every penny that you win then there better be a way for me to deduct my gas, meals, glasses, shoes, and anything else that would require me to go the casino. That would make the already to complicated tax code even more complicated.

What I think the government does not understand is that they may keep people away from gambling which would lower their tax money. Maybe I am way wrong but if they make it known that you have to pay taxes on every little win then I would assume a certain percentage of people would quit going. Maybe not the first year but after they did their taxes that next year.

Yeah, they're definitely trying to have it both ways. You have to declare winnings as income and pay taxes at your top rate, and can only deduct the extent of your provable losses, without any of the expense of getting those winnings, which you get as offsets for nearly every other income source. Not equitable. Unless, of course, you claim to be a professional gambler, which is a whole 'nother cup of tea. And you still get punished for that in other ways.

Quote: beachbumbabs

Yeah, they're definitely trying to have it both ways. You have to declare winnings as income and pay taxes at your top rate, and can only deduct the extent of your provable losses, without any of the expense of getting those winnings, which you get as offsets for nearly every other income source. Not equitable. Unless, of course, you claim to be a professional gambler, which is a whole 'nother cup of tea. And you still get punished for that in other ways.

Plus you've got to be able to itemize deductions to take your losses. Tough if you are retired with not many expenses and Medicare picking up most of the Medical Expenses.

I was reading on another forum about how North Carolina and a few other states do not allow you to take your loses against your gains. So if you won 20K and lost 25K, you still have to pay state taxes (5%) on 20K. That is one aspect of the IRS lowering the threshold limit for reporting that I think hasn't been mentioned yet.

Quote: ncfatcat

Plus you've got to be able to itemize deductions to take your losses. Tough if you are retired with not many expenses and Medicare picking up most of the Medical Expenses.

This is not true. If you have made a profit at gambling, then gambling losses count to reduce or offset gambling wins (resulting in net gambling profit) and legitimate travel expenses involved in gambling can be counted as gambling business expenses.

Quote: gordonm888

This is not true. If you have made a profit at gambling, then gambling losses count to reduce or offset gambling wins (resulting in net gambling profit) and legitimate travel expenses involved in gambling can be counted as gambling business expenses.

Your advice is only true for IRS approved professional gamblers and they are what 1 in 1,000 of all gamblers and the vast majority of them are pokers players.

Here is a link to the AGA (American Gaming Association, casino trade group) president's oral testimony to the IRS regarding this topic. Hopefully these changes will not come to pass but I very worried the IRS will disregard the objections of the casinos and gaming public.

https://gallery.mailchimp.com/03373c05c46b5e9a6eb445537/files/PDF_IRS_Comment_.pdf

The IRS sees this as a cash cow with casino's popping up all over the US. When it was just AC and Vegas it wasn't work the effort or legislation. Now it is.
Heck Resorts World in Queen alone has a net winning 793 million up 14% over the past year.

http://casinoconnectionac.com/issue/vol-12-no-5-may-2015/article/new-yorks-resorts-world-still-winning-big

Doesn't bother me, I always rathole my green and black chips, and I often walk away with my remaining chips without a color up.

The discrepancies from what is put in the system and what the actual results from the player are would be far too many and this is just a disaster waiting to happen.

My father recently won $1700+ at a 3CP table at Sands, PA and when he checked his MySands account on line, it says he lost $73!

Needless to say, he wasn't comped properly , but I doubt he cares about the $4 extra comp dollars he would have "earned"!!!

You have to wonder if sooner or later the IRS will force the casinos to turn all table games into some form of digital cash betting. I know casinos and players won't like the idea, but when has that stop the IRS.

Quote: GWAE

The next step would to require a players card.

Back when Missouri had a loss limit, players cards were required. That said, there was no nefarious purposes at that time.

Quote: zoobrew

You have to wonder if sooner or later the IRS will force the casinos to turn all table games into some form of digital cash betting. I know casinos and players won't like the idea, but when has that stop the IRS.

Well never say never. It probably will happen someday, a long time from now. But people have been predicting a "cashless" and a "paperless" society for a while now and it hasn't happened. Is there less cash used in america than there used to be? Of course. But cash is just easier for some things. Not to mention the anonymity factor, which I think people like sometimes. This applies to casinos. You walk up, put down your dead presidents, (or benji's) and get some chips. There is something satisfying about chips stacked in front of you. That sound they make as people riffle them. The feeling of satisfaction as you rake in a winning bet. Also the logistics factor of casinos having to phase out physical chips and replace them with "electronic/digital" format, every table game in america would need to be replaced. Not happening any time soon.

Quote: GWAE

The next step would to require a players card.

Winner! Winner! Winner!

I really think that will be the case in 10 years. In Missouri you used to be required to use a card to play. It isn't a far stretch to think that this might be the future of all gaming. Card in the machine or it won't play. Player card required to buy in at the table and also required when cashing out at the cage.

Quote: DRich

Winner! Winner! Winner!

I really think that will be the case in 10 years. In Missouri you used to be required to use a card to play. It isn't a far stretch to think that this might be the future of all gaming. Card in the machine or it won't play. Player card required to buy in at the table and also required when cashing out at the cage.

I'm sure you guys are right, that the IRS would want this. Probably the casinos too...for marketing, and game protection, purposes if nothing else. It's going to have to be a universal rule though or people will flock to casinos who don't enforce it. Lots of people just don't want the casino having their information. So if the IRS wants this to happen there's going to have to be a federal law something like "as of 1/1/16, all persons playing any casino games are required to have a casino issued card in order to make a wager, or cash chips". It would have to be universally enforced all over the country or it would be doomed. To say nothing of Indian casinos who might enjoying thumbing their nose at Uncle Sam.

Actually if casinos reported net earnings the vast majority of players would show a loss for the year. They might actually collect less money. As it is now the casinos are issuing W2-G's for any win...but are not required to net out losses. So the old lady who looses $100 a week in a slot machine...Hits one $1500 jackpot a year, has actually lost money. But as it stands now she is probablty paying taxes on her one big win. Simply because she doesn't itemize or doesn't understand she could back out her losses. She just gives the W2 to her tax guy with all her other paperwork and gets screwed. So while stricter IRS reporting by casinos might hurt AP's or quasi proffessional gamblers, accurate reporting of net numbers might actually help the majority of people.

Here's a snippet of Colorado gaming laws (which can be found on their website):
8-31
Procedure for accepting cash at blackjack table.
Amended 7/1/13
A dealer who receives currency or coins (“cash”) or Mobile ATM receipts from a player at a blackjack table in exchange for chips or coins must do the following:
(1) The cash OR Mobile ATM receipt must be spread on top of the blackjack table by the dealer accepting it, in full view of the player;
(2) The amount of cash or the amount shown on the Mobile ATM receipt must be stated by the dealer accepting it; and
(3) Immediately after an equivalent value of chips, tokens, electronic chips, or coins has been given to the player, the cash
or Mobile ATM receipt must be taken from the top of the blackjack table and placed by the dealer into the drop box, except that quarters and half dollar coins may be placed in the chip tray. (47.1-832 renumbered as 47.1-831 and amended; perm. 12/30/98)
Amended 03/01/2012

From what I understand, there will be a setup at the tables where players can simply swipe their debit/credit cards to gain more chips. So the legality of it is setup, but the logistics are not.

Quote: DRich

Winner! Winner! Winner!

I really think that will be the case in 10 years. In Missouri you used to be required to use a card to play. It isn't a far stretch to think that this might be the future of all gaming. Card in the machine or it won't play. Player card required to buy in at the table and also required when cashing out at the cage.

It would be a logistical nightmare, the length of lines and amount of time for a cashout would exponentially increase.

I usually take the bus down to AC, and part of the $40 fare is a $25 slot coupon. This can ONLY be redeemed by having a player's card and people without a card stand in line without their ID ready, then begin fumbling through their purse/wallet for an ID or player's card. Needless to say, this makes an already long wait even longer. And occasionally you get the dufus who argues why he/she needs to show ID or has some lame form of ID from a foreign country that they won't take and the person gets offended to no end.

The way they do Table rating now is perfect, ask patron "Do you have a player's card?" and when they refuse, say "No problem, good luck" and note them in the system as REFUSED PLAYER CARD.

Quote: vendman1

There is something satisfying about chips stacked in front of you. That sound they make as people riffle them. The feeling of satisfaction as you rake in a winning bet.

A lot of hold outs insisted on using coin slots where they could find them. But there's some evidence you can kill any feeling if you take it away long enough.

Tito dominates now I believe by a large degree.

Quote: vendman1

You walk up, put down your dead presidents, (or benji's) and get some chips. There is something satisfying about chips stacked in front of you. That sound they make as people riffle them. The feeling of satisfaction as you rake in a winning bet. Also the logistics factor of casinos having to phase out physical chips and replace them with "electronic/digital" format, every table game in america would need to be replaced. Not happening any time soon.

I thought I heard that some casinos were placing RF transmitters in their chips so that the tables could recognize the amount each player was betting. This would allow play to be electronically tracked while the "feeling" of real chips would still be there. In fact, the players may not even see (feel) any difference. Anyone in the biz know if casinos are considering/testing/implementing RF chips?

For the record, I would not favor this, I had just heard that it may be being done.

Quote:

You walk up, put down your dead presidents, (or benji's)...

Or Tubmans?!

The chipped chips are out there and in use by various casinos. The establishment I work does have some chipped chips but they have been retired for at least 5 years. They were in a sense demo chips for a table games system we thought of installing. After looking at the cost though, operations decided against the system and the chipped chips now sit in the vault inventory collecting dust. The one I saw did not look any different than any other chip. It was before my time here, but from what I heard the system was being marketed to us as a bet tracking device and as an theft detection system. Not so much theft by patrons but by employees. If one went past the employee access point a little alarm would have gone off.