Posted by odiousgambit
Aug 12, 2022

Change in Signature Line [Bristol Casino]

Casinos are beginning to operate in Virginia and although I haven't vowed to check out each one, it's probably going to happen . Certainly when Doc suggested we check out the first to open, a not-yet-labeled Hard Rock calling itself the Bristol Casino, in Bristol VA. 

I already mentioned my impression in the 'casino chip of the day' thread; to summarize, I was surprised to find out the temporary operation was pretty nice ... https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/general/8928-casino-chip-of-the-day/875/#post857755 . I finished that post by suggesting the bubble Craps version could be designed to cheat since each player has his own set of dice. Of course, though I joked about it, there's no way they've been set up to cheat. But is it a mistake for the designer since the thought occurs? 

I wasn't kidding when I said the superstition over such a thing helped chased me away from the bubble Craps set-up, I can't seem to totally avoid responding to such even when intellectually I have contempt for it. This annoying residue of fallacy keeps getting refreshed by the cruel nature of random results so often encountered ... something I've pondered a lot lately. I've decided to change my signature line to "The Dice, the cards, they not only have no sense of justice but are actually endowed with a sense of cruel irony. This devolves from the 'nature of random'. Ironically so, don't you see. "

The current irony is that I am on a quest to gamble smarter at Craps, succeeding to some degree, and being rewarded by suffering an extended losing streak. This has come about in response to the persistence of higher table minimums that I have been experiencing, something that has seemed to have had something to do with that losing streak. This can be mathematically shown to be possible, since it was forcing me to to increase the portion of my betting that is exposed to the house edge. Simply put, there was a limit to how much I am willing to wager on each bet, if I was to keep my pattern of making about 50 bets per hour and stand there and play for a couple of hours. I wasn't going to continue to do @4x, 5x odds when the minimum bet is $15/$25 each bet, 50 bets per hour is just too high for comfort if I did. 

So I have been blogging about what my response should be, and actually it could be a good thing as I might as well go towards the extreme if I do it at all. The trend may be to compensate for higher minimums by featuring higher free odds multiples. This seemed to be what Caesar's Southern Indiana casino decided to do, advertising "The action you’ll find at Caesars Southern Indiana is the real deal, with the 20x odds that serious gamblers seek." These kinds of odds do allow a player to keep the proportion of his betting that is up against the house edge to a minimum. However, what easily happens is the gambler's Total Action also goes up and this can pretty much, well, not be desirable. And now I'm realizing the effect of increased variance also is going to be a factor. 

Prior to Bristol, I had a single session at Caesar's Southern Indiana, which I blogged about. It was my first sortie with my new strategy to combat higher table minimums. To summarize, while at 4x Darkside odds, I played the Don't Come to limit my Total Action; doing that makes you pause while waiting for a point to be established. This worked somewhat but I concluded I posted something like $3000 in Total Action while trying to limit it to about $2000. I needed to spend less time at the table, approximately 90 minutes and no more, instead of 2 hours. Or make a smaller average bet, but that would be giving up the plan. 

At the Bristol Casino I was playing with Doc, didn't want to arbitrarily stop playing if he wanted to continue, and didn't want to go Darkside even though we encountered the $15 minimum. It was 3x4x5x for odds, so on average I'd be something close to the same 4x level. To limit my action better, I was making up silly reasons to hold off on a second bet ... if the next point set was 6 or 8, the most likely points to get set, I 'had to' wait until another point was set. This really limited my betting, and even though we stuck with that session for over 2 hrs, I have to think I came close to limiting action to that $2000. 

So I got it accomplished: something close to the Total Action and overall HE as in the past while experiencing higher table minimums. What could go wrong? Well I know now, after pondering it, this way of dealing with it increases variance. Something like a $75 average bet now, instead of the $40 to $50 it was before. And then there is the nature of the dice, the nature of random. This means no sense of justice in reward to smarter gambling, no. But a chance to apply irony? can't miss that one, not if you're the dice.* At the end of play, I'm down several hundred in this session. It's the double edged sword of greater variance: one is still likely a victim, even though the chances of a winning session increase assuming that it is true that you are better off not grinding away against the house edge. 

We did want to have a second session, but since it was later in the day, I guess, now we were facing a $25 minimum. Frankly, my ability to deal with such a minimum is not really there. But, it was still possible to keep the Total Action the same, and still take full odds, it just means you can only make a few bets. So I determined I was only going to bet on my own and Doc's rolls. No Come bets, too, which had burned me last session and which I will make another blog post about. Doc's rolling was good and this paid off. He soon wanted to cash in before he gave it all back. I stuck around though, knowing I was still short of wagering $2000. This meant I had to wait until the dice came back to me before I bet again. Then some time wasting thing kept happening with the inexperienced dealer, I don't even remember what. The ol' itch to get some action got to me and I made a Come bet; it traveled and sevened-out with remarkable speed. Doc was gone already and that was it for me. At least I cashed out ahead, though quite a bit short of getting my previous loss covered. 

It's just pretty hard to have fun at a $25 table, short of having fabulous luck. One funny thing was noted though, see below. 

* yeah I know I'm attributing human qualities here that do not exist, I can't seem to resist


[below posted in "casino chip of the day" thread https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/general/8928-casino-chip-of-the-day/875/#post857780

this was interesting, have to mention it

the dealers were largely undergoing on the job training, as Doc mentioned. The Box-man was always as good as you'd find anywhere, though, and it seemed the Stick was likely to be well experienced. The other dealers were likely to be needing a lot of help. Stick and Box would help them, and in at least one case I had a dealer that had another guy standing right behind him helping him constantly. This was when the minimum went up to $25, and I was betting max on the odds. The 6 or 8 was the point the first time this had to be paid off when I had placed $125 on the odds. The rookie dealer had to ask what he was supposed to pay. Interestingly, the guy behind him was flummoxed for a bit too ... after a short period it was determined to be $150

Of course this meant only one thing: nobody else had been betting max odds. It was 3x4x5x!  That's designed to make it easy for the dealers! No matter if the point was 6/8, 5/9, or 4/10, the payoff for max odds made on the table minimum was going to be $150. Training a newbie, of course you'd expect them to remind them of that first thing, 'payoffs will be $150'. But even the more experienced dealer behind the rookie hadn't prepared himself for that. The thinking likely was, nobody is going to be betting max odds. 

What this tells me is one reason the house is going to the higher minimums now, they are realizing this kills max betting on the free odds.

Posted by odiousgambit
Jun 27, 2022

Caesar's Southern Indiana Part II

FYI I corrected an error in the part where I was calculating my total action in Part I. 

Yeah, I know, nobody cares. So how did the Craps session, an experiment, actually go? 

I was fully prepared to have to fight off the urge to get more action with additional DC bets while waiting for a point to resolve. My mood had gone south already with the $15 table minimum, so I think this helped maintain discipline, and of course I could remind myself all I needed to do was add to the odds bet if I wanted to press. 

So for the first 90 minutes I just stuck with the 4x darkside DC-only plan, and I could see that I was winning more points than I was losing even though some shooters were doing just fine rightside. Playing only the DC was interesting in that you had plenty of time to check things out, including whether you got paid right. I think it helped avoid hard feelings as well, everybody else was almost 100% rightside. One guy would occasionally make a DP bet on an whim apparently, so the dice, hating side-switchers*, soon wiped him out. Now, I've stated I am on the lookout for darksiders who pick up their bets on points of 6/8, but this guy, with a tiny bankroll, was so obviously doomed I paid no attention to him. Otherwise I saw none of it, another disappointment. As I realized, with my legs telling me too, that what I wanted to do for a session was winding up, I did an estimate of my remaining bankroll; I clearly was only about even. So you can see how the fallacies get started that you hear from dealers and other players: you play the darkside and you may be pleased to realize you are winning the points. Of course, some you don't, but the feeling is it's going OK. Then you realize you haven't made any money. Darkside, you get less than you bet on the free odds. If you are losing the same number of points that you are winning, you are getting creamed! So, without math, it seems simple and you're ready to spread the fallacies: "you can't win playing the darkside because you win less than you bet" ... " you might as well take down the bet if the point is 6 or 8, you lose too many of those".... "put all your money on the line bet, not the free odds, why get paid less than you bet?" [boy do I see that a lot]. To be sure, you have to win a good percent of the points. If you want to say the break-even 5/9 winning percent is close to what you need on average, then you win 6 ways, lose 4 ways, 10 total ways, breaking even on odds bets if you win 60% of the time on those bets. That's a lot, it feels good to win like that, but it's only breaking even. 

I had planned to press only if I was winning, but decided to up my free odds to $90 for some bets. That wasn't going too good, and I went back to $60 even though I had some time left. At this point the shooters were having some luck, and I quit betting when one hefty guy was shooting, good thing too. Finally he 7s-out and quits in a disgusted way, nearly chipless. I'm down a bit now, but not too bad. 

I once again marvel at what goes on at Craps. "Hefty" was killing me, enough to make me just avoid him, as I said. Yet he was betting a lot, all over the place, probably putting $100 in action much of the time, middle table bets of course, and here he was, the same guy I feared, leaving broke. Happens all the time, and who knows, maybe Hefty was blaming me? I didn't see him give me any looks like he was bothered, but here comes the next guy, scruffy stubble beard, just showing up on the other end of the table... I won't forget him soon. 

You can never expect justice in a casino. I expect the daily occurrence at this Craps table probably is that the guy who didn't need the money is the one who wins big if anyone did, while the guy who needs to win goes down in flames, losing the rent and his last dollar. The dice, thus, do seem to have sense of cruelty, and do like irony. 'Scruffy' turns out to be the nosy guy who needs to know what's going on with the whole table. He starts rolling and sets a point, making it my time to bet the DC. The next thing I know he is staring me down, incredulous look on his face. And he persists, having to roll the dice again doesn't take his mind off it a bit. No one else ever in my dice career acted like they gave a hoot all the way over from the other end of the table. You really have to be studying things to observe that! I'm pretty sure what he saw was not my placing the bet, but my chips in the area the Don'ts go. I couldn't believe it, and started to think he saw somebody he knew behind me, and I turned around to look carefully. Nope. The entire time I had been there even the guys next to me had nothing to say, perhaps some appreciating that I was betting the DC thus avoiding being in direct conflict to the Pass Line bets. But not Scruffy from a mile away. Ultimately he says "I've got to get you on my side" a few times, and finally I plead "It's the DC!". Admittedly it's a weak argument, for the most part he and I are still hoping for different outcomes even if on different points. In any case he wasn't buying it, and he was being totally out of line. Now would be the time for the dice to deliver justice and crush this guy. Oh, I forgot, it's cruel irony that the dice delight in, so of course the guy goes on a monster roll. My two hours are up anyway and I color up while he is still rolling. I had stayed pretty even till then but now I'm -350. I had planned to check out the casino further before I left. Check out what table games were there, what minimums were, was it 6:5 BJ, where was the hotel, and were the license plates all KY or not. Instead I just left, goodbye Indiana and good riddance. 

* I confess this is a totally ridiculous conceit of mine, more of which will be included


tuttigym Jun 28, 2022

Alas, it seems the "low" table minimums ($5/$10} may be gone forever with few exceptions like Biloxi. I have resigned myself to the $15 minimum, and as I have previously stated, I practiced on Wincraps (sorry for the redundancy), and it has served me well. I experimented with different approaches or betting schemes until I felt comfortable with what seemed to work. The comfort carried over to the real thing.


avianrandy Jun 28, 2022

It is a long walk from the hotel to the casino.sonetimesctgey have a golf cart that takes you to the casino. When I went,blackjack was 6 deck and double deck but that has been a bit. Seems like a fair amount of Kentucky and Ohio and Indiana license plate

odiousgambit Jun 28, 2022

"Alas, it seems the "low" table minimums ($5/$10} may be gone forever"....................................... someone I know likes to say "not only do the good times not last forever, they don't even last very long"

Randy, I hadn't thought much about players coming from Ohio, which has casinos. Looks like you might want to drive from the hotel to the casino in bad weather, judging from google maps satellite shot

Posted by odiousgambit
Jun 23, 2022

Caesar's Southern Indiana Part I

It's 15 miles from the middle of Louisville Kentucky, where we were staying, to Caesar's Southern Indiana, and from there takes less than 30 minutes. You have to figure the casino was put there with Louisville in mind, Kentucky being without regular casinos. There is simply nothing much else nearby, though I suppose a few players might arrive from Evansville IN, about 120 miles and 2 hours away. Evansville gamblers, though, have other options including its own casino, Bally's. 

The Missus wanted to do something else when I had my chance to partake, and we had other plans for later in the afternoon; this was not a gambling trip per se but I had much of the afternoon to check it out.  I soon went through tiny Elizabeth IN and was headed south. You then go through 7 miles of farmland, passing crops and a few houses and shacks, some abandoned, none proper farmhouses it seems. Big commercial farming with a hint of desolation. Some of it would make great speed-traps, you have been warned. 

I arrived before noon and took some time to check it out. It's medium sized and laid out in rectangular fashion, but somehow avoids the boxy feel. Just a few places to eat; there is a steakhouse restaurant open Thursday through Sunday. Slots are everywhere of course, but they made room enough for table games, in addition to what's mentioned at the website I could see Crazy 4 poker going. There's a sportsbook, which I did not look into. It wasn't too hard to find some video poker, the best I saw was 7/5 JOB with plenty much worse, though I didn't look to see what was in the high limit room. Perhaps Double Double Bonus was better, but that requires study for me to evaluate. The rest of this report is about Craps, and otherwise my 'checking it out' was over. I'll explain. 

Craps: There was one table going when I got there. The website stated there would be 20x odds available, but of course there's no way to know for sure what the table minimum might be. I was hoping for $10, knowing now $5 is getting too rare to expect, but also thinking perhaps it wouldn't be $15 during slower non-weekend day times. The 20x promise was real, but alas $15 it was for minimum line bet. As per previous blogpost, I've decided I should respond to this disappointment by limiting my total action. The table was about half-full and though I didn't see anyone playing the darkside, it seemed like the thing to do to fit the instantly soured mood the table minimum brought on. 

I am taking the matter of always facing $15 Craps table minimums very seriously, but I shouldn't make it look like "I can't afford" a $15 table playing the way I used to, which involved making about 100 line bets [only, adding odds] over about 2 hours. Putting $1500 against a 1.4% edge means an EV of a mere -$21.* However, it is also true that there is a certain bet amount that is a comfort level for a player, and that for me has been up to about $50, which was great when you could bet $5 and then add 10x odds. More often in past play, odds were limited to 3x4x5x but at a $5 table I'd be pretty quick to add come bets. Once the table goes to $10, that $50 bet starts to get eaten up by the portion on the vig. And obviously even worse with $15... then I'm adding $30 for odds and a third of the bet is against a house edge. So this just becomes something noticeable and something to ponder when playing Craps that seemed not to be so much fun anymore. Enough that I questioned whether I even want to play. I hadn't wanted to increase my odds bet and increase my total action, and as a result had already cut out much of the come betting. Clearly though, without making some extra bets like that there are boring moments. So, this visit was an experiment to see if I can increase the odds bet without much increasing total action... and still enjoy playing Craps. 

At a $5 table, 3x4x5x, my typical action a few years ago would be rightside and over 2 hrs had been easily 100 line + come bets; average bet is 3.78 units.** 378 times $5 = $1890 total action. At this $15 table I was aiming for about 50 bets, reducing the times I was betting by creating a betting-pause by betting only the Don't Come. This assumes I otherwise would have bet about 60 bets by doing the opposite, making only Don't Pass bets, no DCs.  From what I could tell, this worked well, and got weird looks from one dealer. But now with 4x odds, darkside, average bet say 4 units**... 4 times 50 times $15 is $3000 total action. So 3000 versus 1890, only looking at this just now, you can see I missed the mark. To keep my action the same as those ancient times of 4 years ago! I need to spend less time at the table, or approximately 90 minutes, no more, instead of 2 hours. I have to ponder this, it's either that or less than 4x odds. [edited] 

So how did it actually go? I'm going to keep you in suspense and make that part II. [sorry]


* I have never been able to square this fact with the reality of play. I can definitely sound like Tuttigym when it comes to EV of a single session.
** from saved information provided by member goatcabin. I am having to guess about average bet darkside, which should be slightly more than the rightside figure, 4x is 3.67 units for average bet rightside


tuttigym Jun 23, 2022

Judy, my significant other, and I took a road trip a few years ago up from GA to KY. A discovery trip with nowhere to go and no time to get there. It was summertime, and the weather was warm and clear and beautiful. We drove up to eastern KY to Louisville and stayed in some small town not too far south of Louisville. We were told about a casino in southern IN, and we went there. The casino was large and beautiful. I played craps, and the tables, yes there were several, were crowded and I believe they were $5 min. The one thing I remember about that night of gaming was that the tables were ice cold. Everybody playing them were "establishment" right side bettors except me. I played for about an hour and did well, and when I colored out I got an approving nod from the box man walking away up about $400+. There were a couple of older men just shaking their heads not believing how "bad" the tables were. There were kinda shuffling greens in their hands going table to table and losing.

Judy and I drove back to the motel and had a great rest of the trip which turned out to be paid for by that casino experience.


Posted by odiousgambit
Jun 22, 2022

Oil? pffffft, that's nothing. Craps Inflation is Worse!

Just got back from the first Craps I've played since November. I knew a $15 table minimum was quite likely, but I was seriously bummed anyway when this proved to be the case. I was wondering, am I just not adjusting mentally to the new value of the dollar? 
So I checked records and found I was encountering $5 tables frequently in 2018. If the casinos just wanted to keep up with inflation, what would that be equivalent to now? Using the CPI calculator, which goes to May this year, I let it crunch the numbers and since January 2018 it gets $5 changing to $5.90 for May 2022. Adding 1%, the latest month over month figure, I get $5.96. 

I want to officially state we Craps players have a legitimate complaint when we get slammed with $15 minimums. 
I'm working on a full trip report


tuttigym Jun 22, 2022

Mr.OG, I want you to consider practicing on the WoO craps game and start out with a base Don't PL bet of $15 with a $5 Any 7 at CO. Then go from that. If the point is 4,5,9, or 10 place two to three times odds plus a 2 point Molley. See how the "table plays" for a few hands much like for real and make your adjustments or do whatever other options you normally play. But PRACTICE as if it was real. If you have Wincraps, practice on it. When you do it enough, you will be comfortable with the play and can make it work for real. Obviously, you are not going to win every hand, but the practice plus adjustments on the fly will create an easier transition and less stress.


odiousgambit Jun 22, 2022

"... consider practicing on the WoO craps game... If you have Wincraps, practice on it"

Mr. T-Gym, these are old things to try to me, but thanks

"... start out with a base Don't PL bet of $15 with a $5 Any 7 at CO".

my complaint about hedging is that it is a natural thing to come to mind when bothered by variance, but the worst way to reduce it

" .... If the point is 4,5,9, or 10 place two to three times odds plus a 2 point Molley."

well I can see you don't like my idea of keeping total action to about the same as I had it going when we had $5 tables we could use

tuttigym Jun 22, 2022

The $5 tables may be gone forever. I personally do not understand "variance," so it has no impact on my approach to the game. Hedging, for me, helps manage my bankroll, gives me wins, that while they are net lower than straight out, allow me to play longer and feel positive.

The first thing I figured out about playing any game was that there was no way I was going to win all those stacks of chips in front of the dealers, so I set my goals for short term smaller profits and hopefully stringing them together.

The great thing about craps is that it allows for a variety of approaches and strategies. I really like that.


ahiromu Jun 22, 2022

There really should be a different minimum calculation for craps, e.g. non-odds exposure instead of per bet. $100 min exposure would better than $15 minimum pass line, for me at least.

odiousgambit Jun 22, 2022

"The great thing about craps is that it allows for a variety of approaches and strategies. I really like that." agreed T-Gym.

Ahiromu, good to hear from you, I remember we used to converse some. Took me a moment to get what you were saying. Yes, for most players I think your idea would be better for them. Most seem to have much more than than the minimum bet bet laid out every time they get a chance, without much on the odds.

Posted by odiousgambit
Jun 10, 2022

6x Craps

My next Craps venture may offer 20x free odds. I don't know what the table minimum will be, but I think anymore when the free odds are jacked like that, the strategy of taking advantage of them but limiting Total Action is the way to go. It's the 'new me' ... I used to bet the Come the instant I got a little bored. Now the odds need to bring the excitement, and be the way to press as well. As it will be a gradual progression starting with 6x, if I ever get to 20x I can tell you I expect to come back with quite the trip report! 

I've been crunching some numbers for 6x odds to see what to expect. 

Tuttigym, I know you sometimes follow my blog so I've been thinking about you on this. You'll be happy to know the EV by itself I will regard as almost meaningless. But stay tuned. 

If it's a $10 table and I do my usual for a session, it'll be about 2 hrs. 
2 hrs with no come betting will be @60 bets, for a total of $600 in line bets. 
Yep the expected value, the EV, for that is -8.40 dollars. 

If it's a $15 table, being dissatisfied with that I plan to bet the Come only. That will limit my action by having to wait when someone goes on a string of Passline outcomes without setting a point. I am guessing that will limit my betting to about 55 bets or so for two hours.*

By the same process, the line bets for 55 should set an EV of $11.55

The TuttiG-like comment for that is that these numbers don't tell me much. 
Now the next step is what I've tried to get Tuttigym to investigate: standard deviation. Admittedly when first examining that I found it quite intimidating. However, I later found out the hard part has already been done for us and we can use the formula: "The standard deviation of the final result over n bets is the product of the standard deviation for one bet ... and the square root of the number of initial bets made in the session " [quoting the Wizard]

Since I am just predicting what I'll do when I get there, I'll use a lot of approximation. Much of this can be done in your head. 

In the first instance, looking at 60 bets, which is a guess, why not say 64 bets; the square root= 8 
the standard deviation for odds is approximately 1+ those odds. For 6x I'll use 7 . The SD for one bet is about 1.

8*7=56, @ 60
@60 * 3 standard deviations = @180 
180 * $10 = $1800 +/-8   

3 stand deviations tell me I shouldn't win or lose as much as that, or let's say $2000 [win or lose]. 


$15-min table bets . I hope to be in a mindset of limiting my action. 
instead of 55, let's say 49; sqrt 49 bets = 7 
7*7=49... 3 deviations = @150
150 * $15 = @ $2300 +/-11 or so

The nature of standard deviation is an admission of inexactness, and at least for this game at these free odds, it confirms the EV calculation doesn't mean much. 2 SDs instead of 3 tell you a range you'll wind up at most of the time, @ two-thirds of the time . I like to use 3 SDs to get me to @99% of the time. It tells me how much to bring and let's me assess if I can afford to lose that much if I have bad luck [though that kind of luck usually chases me from the table early of course]. I can afford it, but also do take heart that it's not going to be like that all the time. My experience with it has validated it for me too. 

So clearly I had you in mind Tuttigym as I was doing this.  

Link: https://wizardofodds.com/gambling/house-edge/

*I can't do the math for figuring this out exactly. My guess is that it has only a small effect


tuttigym Jun 10, 2022

Mr. OG, I am so very flattered of the mention. Your math calculations, because I am deficient, have my head swimming. Your odds bet(s) at 6X will start at $90 ($15 table) which could produce great or disastrous results especially since most hands last only 4-6 rolls on average. By limiting the number of wagers per hand, you can allow for a disciplined overall approach.

I am not sure this strategy will be in your "comfort zone" as the "don't" side of your play has been your preferred direction.

Tell me if I am reading this correctly: $10 table PL bets only with no odds or 6X odds and no other bets during the hands? So, a $15 table no PL bets only come bets + 6X odds? How many numbers per hand or per point until resolved?

I know you have the discipline and focus to accommodate these strategies, but will boredom set in?

Or am I misreading this whole approach, which is entirely possible.


100xOdds Jun 10, 2022

~15yrs ago in Tunica, there was a casino with .25 min and 20x odds.

surprisingly, i was the only person at the table maxxing odds.

cheaper than Vegas at $2min and maxxing 3/4/5x odds.

and got a $60 food voucher for their steak restaurant for playing 4 hrs playing with a $100 buy-in.

(dont remember if i was up or not but who cares with a $60 food voucher.)

I think that casino was swept away in a hurricane a few years later :(

odiousgambit Jun 11, 2022

100x, you couldn't find a better example of how people just don't get it when it comes to free odds than your Mississippi one

Tutti-G, boredom could strike. It's a problem. Playing Craps has this problem, it offers a great deal HE wise, but ...

As for playing the darkside, I plan to do that, but didn't want to make that what the post was about. It has some advantages if you are wanting to limit how much you have in action, since you avoid getting caught up in rightside excitement. Also, I keep an eye out for Darkside players who give up action on points-set 6 or 8; it helps if they see you are also already a Darksider.* Second problem is not enough players at the table so you wind up having to shoot darkside yourself. I hate that.

* Having said that, it's a frustrating venture for the most part, as that type of person tends to be hard to connect to when you do find them. Yet it is the only way to play craps in a +EV way outside of working comps, so I don't give up on it.

tuttigym Jun 11, 2022

Mr. OG, For me the math shown is very abstract because of my own math deficiencies. Could you provide a picture of a couple of winning hands that would illustrate how the plan would play out leaving out a "monster" hand. The losing side would be self-explanatory and unnecessary. By showing this, one can understand why it might take 2 hrs of play to achieve the desired results simply because there might not be that "monster" hand.

I love your ability to "read" the table of players and are willing to adapt.


odiousgambit Jun 11, 2022

>Could you provide a picture of a couple of winning hands 

>that would illustrate how the plan would play out 

>leaving out a "monster" hand

Say a $10 table. Say I break even on come-out wins and losses. 

if it is 6x, I'm betting $70 when it is a point. Let's say all the points that get set are 5 or 9. So when I win it's $100 net; if I lose $70 is gone. I posted $1800 for a win, or $1800 for a loss, is about all to expect in the best and worst cases, for a range, over 64 bets. If almost all are points to resolve, 60 let's say, 

if I win 40 [+4000] and lose 20 [-1400] I'm up $2600. 

If I win 35 [+3500] and lose 25 [-1750] I'm up $1750

if I win 30 [+3000] and lose 30 [-2100] I'm up $900

Of course at a negative expectation game I'm more likely to lose than win. Similar scenarios can be concocted to show that, which I won't bother with .  What the Standard Deviations tell me is that in less than 1% of the sessions like that would I ever get that lucky or unlucky, to be seeing more than $2000 in wins or losses, that is. It doesn't say the $1750 win or lose is more likely than $900 win or lose though. It just gives me a range meanwhile anything might happen as we know. 

You can pick apart the above to find unrealistic things about it. Or mistakes. You could have someone come and say my understanding of SD is incomplete. You could certainly give me a raw set of data and tell me to determine the Standard Deviation of that set... and flunk me on the spot. The thing is, I just know that work has been done already and we can just use it. It's statistical math, and you have to figure these things get tested with real data. My experience fits it just fine too.

tuttigym Jun 11, 2022

Mr. OG, Thank you for the explanation, and I understand it. Since there are no odds bets wagered with the PL bet at 6X, isn't it true that the return on all wins is even money? Rhetorical question because you show the return as such. So PL CO wins will give you an edge or head start when no point is previously established and CO craps losers would, of course, work against the bottom line.

1. In the overall scheme of things, how would PL CO's effect the total outcomes in favor of the player?

2. Instead of playing the PL, why not play a PB for the 6X amount on the point? A point winner will provide a more than even money return and a point loser would be the same result as a PL loser.

3. So, would wagering as in number 2 above mitigate the potential PL CO winners in number 1.?


ChumpChange Jun 11, 2022

I'd bet the Don't Pass with 6X odds. When the odds bet loses, switch sides to the Pass Line and bet 3X, 4X, 5X odds so you can win that 6X odds back on one win. Go back to the DP after a 7-out.

odiousgambit Jun 11, 2022

"1. In the overall scheme of things, how would PL CO's effect the total outcomes in favor of the player?" .................................................... Come out rolls, I hope you mean, are just an essential part of the bet. You can't bet the odds without the come out roll becoming a point to resolve. When it can be skipped, say when you put it behind the bet of someone else who doesn't play the odds, it has an EV of zero, but the same expectation of wild swings.

"2. Instead of playing the PL, why not play a PB for the 6X amount on the point? A point winner will provide a more than even money return and a point loser would be the same result as a PL loser".................................................... this kind of evaluation I see a lot. It talks about the payoffs without any mediation by probability. If the probability doesn't matter, just put your money on the '2' or '12' as those bets have the best payouts, 30 to one I think.

"3. So, would wagering as in number 2 above mitigate the potential PL CO winners in number 1.?" ......................... I hope you can see I would expect to lose more money.

odiousgambit Jun 11, 2022

"I'd bet the Don't Pass with 6X odds. When the odds bet loses, switch sides to the Pass Line and bet 3X, 4X, 5X odds so you can win that 6X odds back on one win. Go back to the DP after a 7-out."

It is true that 6x on the Don't is the flipside of 3x4x5x rightside. I've never seen a list of Standard Deviations for the darkside odds, it makes me think you increase the variance doing 6x darkside as a mirror to 3x4x5x rightside.

tuttigym Jun 11, 2022

I was misinterpreting the basic wager as a $70 PL with no odds. Your last set of explanations to my questions cleared it all up for me. So, the only question, for me, is with 60 points to resolve in a session, what are the actual odds of winning a minimum of 30 points of the 60 played? I am sure it can be done, but how often? It would seem to be an exhausting endeavor to play that way, and the probability of winning even $900, as you have noted is perhaps slim. I am positive that you could handle the task of such play simply because of your disciplined approach to game. On the other hand, the vast majority of those who play craps are "antsy" and could not stay the course especially if their bankroll became a casualty of multiple and early 7 outs. I personally could not do it, but then I rarely stay at the table for more than an hour or so. Perhaps you can try this plan at one of your sessions and let us know how you fared.


odiousgambit Jun 12, 2022

that's one thing, it's likely to be a lot less than 60 points out of a total of maybe 64 hands. 64's uncertain as well. Don't take my example too seriously, wasn't written to be accurate. All I know is I could be up or down $1000 and it could approach $2000, but getting chased from the table will put a stop to that as a loss

stay tuned for trip report, in a while though

tuttigym Jun 12, 2022

I love the creativity and honesty. Thinking outside the box is always fun and challenging.


ChumpChange Jun 12, 2022

Say a $10 table. Say I break even on come-out wins and losses.

if it is 6x, I'm betting $70 when it is a point. Let's say all the points that get set are 5 or 9. So when I win it's $100 net; if I lose $70 is gone. If almost all are points to resolve, 100 let's say,

if I win 40 [+4000] and lose 60 [-4200] I'm down $200. (Normal)

if I win 41 [+4100] and lose 59 [-4130] I'm down $30.

if I win 42 [+4200] and lose 58 [-4060] I'm up $140.

If I win 45 [+4500] and lose 55 [-3850] I'm up $650

if I win 50 [+5000] and lose 50 [-3500] I'm up $1500

if I win 35 [+3500] and lose 65 [-4550] I'm down $1050.

If I win 30 [+3000] and lose 70 [-4900] I'm down $1900

if I win 25 [+2500] and lose 75 [-5250] I'm down $2750