What is the relationship b/w RNG and casino's hold?
February 23rd, 2012 at 2:32:52 AM
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The Wizard of Odds site is very helpful and informative but I have a specific question that I do not think has ever been answered:
It is phrased above, but let me provide a few premises so that we are on the same page.
First, although it is often stated that the RNG shuffles the cards until the deal/draw button is pressed, actually I think what happens is that once the deal button is pressed, the RNG stops and spits out a specific series of numbers either in binary code or in mixed real numbers (e.g., 237649772222) that represents a specific hand and its sequence. For example, the randomly generated number of 23764977222 will always translate to the following initial hand and its ordering: K (diamonds), K (spades), King (hearts), 7 (diamonds), and 2 (hearts). So although the common parlance is to say the machine shuffles, technically that is not true -- it merely either continues to run numbers randomly or simply generates a number randomly once the deal button is pressed.
But if the process is truly random, how can there ever be a hold that can be adjusted by the casino?
thanks,
It is phrased above, but let me provide a few premises so that we are on the same page.
First, although it is often stated that the RNG shuffles the cards until the deal/draw button is pressed, actually I think what happens is that once the deal button is pressed, the RNG stops and spits out a specific series of numbers either in binary code or in mixed real numbers (e.g., 237649772222) that represents a specific hand and its sequence. For example, the randomly generated number of 23764977222 will always translate to the following initial hand and its ordering: K (diamonds), K (spades), King (hearts), 7 (diamonds), and 2 (hearts). So although the common parlance is to say the machine shuffles, technically that is not true -- it merely either continues to run numbers randomly or simply generates a number randomly once the deal button is pressed.
But if the process is truly random, how can there ever be a hold that can be adjusted by the casino?
thanks,
February 23rd, 2012 at 5:04:33 AM
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Class II machines *might* work kinda sorta the way you described it. I, and most people here, tend to ignore Class II.
Class III machines shuffle and deal cards randomly.
And the "hold" is NOT adjusted by the casino.
"Hold" is the difference between cash in and cash out. Period.
"Edge" is the expectation of what the hold will be. It is adjusted by changing the paytable, not fiddling with the RNG.
FYI: The hold is usually MORE than the expected edge, because players have one particular variable that the casino does not have: Bankroll limits.
Sure, sometimes a player hits a big hand, and the hold takes a temporary dip.
But the bottom line is this: The RNG picks random numbers, which are then used to shuffle the deck. There is no correlation between the RNG and the hold or edge.
Class III machines shuffle and deal cards randomly.
And the "hold" is NOT adjusted by the casino.
"Hold" is the difference between cash in and cash out. Period.
"Edge" is the expectation of what the hold will be. It is adjusted by changing the paytable, not fiddling with the RNG.
FYI: The hold is usually MORE than the expected edge, because players have one particular variable that the casino does not have: Bankroll limits.
Sure, sometimes a player hits a big hand, and the hold takes a temporary dip.
But the bottom line is this: The RNG picks random numbers, which are then used to shuffle the deck. There is no correlation between the RNG and the hold or edge.
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
February 23rd, 2012 at 6:22:45 AM
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When I program a video poker game for my own entertainment (yes, I have no life), the cards are "shuffled" and ordered into an array stack of 52 cards at the start of each hand. I would have no difficulty setting up a subroutine that constantly burns numbers from the RNG between deals. Some RNGs are different in nature, but the one I work with gives me a floating point number between zero and one (not inclusive) and it's up to me, the programmer, to turn that limitation into 52 randomized cards. I just assign each card the value of the next number from the RNG. If I find a duplicate value, it gets discarded and another number is drawn. I can shuffle thousands of hands per second this way.
Someday, joor goin' to see the name of Googie Gomez in lights and joor goin' to say to joorself, "Was that her?" and then joor goin' to answer to joorself, "That was her!" But you know somethin' mister? I was always her yuss nobody knows it! - Googie Gomez
February 24th, 2012 at 1:50:50 AM
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I looked up the hold for various casinos in Iowa (where I live) They're all around 15-20% for Blackjack. Obviously this is way higher than the House Edge of 0.5%-1.5% (depending on how you play). But that's only true if you played 20 hands at $5 a hand on a $100 buy-in. That's really not true.. Most people will play hundreds of hands over the course of hours. Some may play about a hundred before losing everything. Thus you'd get the hold up to 20%
February 24th, 2012 at 2:09:21 AM
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First note that hold is a table game metric and isn't used in video poker. In a nutshell, "coin in" (average bet * bets made), called "handle" in table games, is very hard to accurately determine for a table game so they use hold, which is the win divided by the money placed in the drop box. A BJ game with an average edge of 1% (99% payback) might hold 12%. Video Poker is usually described in payback percentage which is the percentage of the total money bet a player can expect to have, on average, at the end of his session.
Most jurisdictions with Class III gaming require video poker to deal out of a "true" deck. In other words the payback percentage of the game must match the payback percentage of the same payout table played with a real deck of cards. To that end most VP machines shuffle a deck using a RNG seed and deal out of that deck. If you're not familiar with RNG seeding, look it up. The seed is what is constantly changing in a VP machine.
To chance the payback percentage of a VP machine all the operator has to do is change the payback table. For example, if a typical Jacks or Better machine pays 9 for a full house and 6 for a flush, the payback percentage is 99.54%. If the operator changes that to 9 for a full house but only 5 for a flush, the payback percentage is lowered to 98.45%. In other words the operator will win, on average, about 3 times as much from the machine. For different JoB payout tables and their percentages click here.
Most jurisdictions with Class III gaming require video poker to deal out of a "true" deck. In other words the payback percentage of the game must match the payback percentage of the same payout table played with a real deck of cards. To that end most VP machines shuffle a deck using a RNG seed and deal out of that deck. If you're not familiar with RNG seeding, look it up. The seed is what is constantly changing in a VP machine.
To chance the payback percentage of a VP machine all the operator has to do is change the payback table. For example, if a typical Jacks or Better machine pays 9 for a full house and 6 for a flush, the payback percentage is 99.54%. If the operator changes that to 9 for a full house but only 5 for a flush, the payback percentage is lowered to 98.45%. In other words the operator will win, on average, about 3 times as much from the machine. For different JoB payout tables and their percentages click here.
