Question about EV on 10% loss rebate offer currently in effect

I posted this in the Terrible's thread, but this thread seemed to me geared more toward the information I'm seeking.

https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/las-vegas-casinos/terribles/1624-10-cashback/5/

Terrible's currently has a rebate of 10% on losses, and the rebate may be requested once after 24 hours have passed since your last rebate request. The 10% rebate is for losses exceeding $1,000.00. (a 5% rebate on losses off $500 - $999.00 should be ignored for the sake of this discussion.)

The Terrible’s 10% rebate is still in effect. I telephoned and verified today (11/30/2010) with a pit critter named Tom. They will issue the rebate once every 24 + hours for a player.

On the surface, it originally appears to me to be a profitable and potentially exploitable opportunity. I was ready, willing, and able to make reservations and hop a flight.

But on closer examination, and if my math is “right”, it does not appear to be profitable in the long run. I know my math is not correct for this scenario (written below) but have included my thoughts anyway.

Here is what I originally thought would be the “correct” math, if played on the 0.47% double deck Blackjack table. Table limit is $500.00 maximum bet. For simplicity, I used $1,000 bets in my calculations, seeking one decision per 24 hour 01 minute time period to qualify for a rebate if a loss is incurred. After 100 trials, my very rough and most likely inaccurate calculations were:

47 winners @ $1,000 = $47,000.00
53 losers @ $900 = 47,700.00

Net: – $700 over 100 trials @ $1,000 per trial.

I don’t think I am correct, but is may be roughly accurate.

Is this offer, long term, really a loser for the player, assuming perfect play?

Since the maximum bet allowed is $500.00, this bet size should be used to calculate the long term results with the following parameters:

The 100 trials should fall exactly on mathematical expectation. If necessary for computing the results, a larger number of trials could be used. My definition of “trials” in this message is the daily session, whether one hand or many until the daily goal is reached, every 24+ hours to be eligible for the rebate.

I would expect some “daily” trials could involve many individual hands if the results are choppy. Other considerations would include pushes, dealer and player simultaneous naturals, etc.

The player will stop for 24 hours once a $1,000+ winner goal, or $1,000+ stop loss is reached. Bankroll is "unlimited".

Considering splits and doubles, a win or loss could be $2750.00 ($2,000 on second wager with split and double, following a natural 3-2 payoff win on first trial.) It is probably more, as I did not consider potential results on re-splits and doubles. Again, I am only looking for “expectation”.

What are the anticipated results, deviation, and ROR using $500 wagers, and 100 trials? Would the expectation be different for 50 trials? 10 trials? I do realize the ROR will change drastically with fewer trials.

Maybe someone with better math abilities and understanding will come along and provide accurate information on the EV of this scenario. How profitable, or how big a loser is it really?

I just do not know, and would truly like to know.

Thanks for your input.

Quote: RoadTrip

Here is what I originally thought would be the “correct” math, if played on the 0.47% double deck Blackjack table. Table limit is $500.00 maximum bet. For simplicity, I used $1,000 bets in my calculations, seeking one decision per 24 hour 01 minute time period to qualify for a rebate if a loss is incurred. After 100 trials, my very rough and most likely inaccurate calculations were:

47 winners @ $1,000 = $47,000.00
53 losers @ $900 = 47,700.00

Net: – $700 over 100 trials @ $1,000 per trial.

Maybe someone with better math abilities and understanding will come along and provide accurate information on the EV of this scenario. How profitable, or how big a loser is it really?

I just do not know, and would truly like to know.

Thanks for your input.

I think you're off a decimal point. .47% would round to 50 wins and 50 losses in 100 decisions. So you'd come out $5000 ahead over 100 trials (50000 in wins - 45000 in losses)

For Blackjack there's a difference between the EV and the frequency of winners.

You win less than half the hands, and make your money "back" on the splits, doubles and blackjacks.

The exact numbers are published somewhere for some rule sets, but no idea where that is.

Quote: rdw4potus

I think you're off a decimal point. .47% would round to 50 wins and 50 losses in 100 decisions. So you'd come out $5000 ahead over 100 trials (50000 in wins - 45000 in losses)

I purposely did not want to round off the calculations I made, wanting to have an exact EV, whether plus or minus, and figuring the rebate into the losses.

Since the game is known to be 0.47%, in the long term, that equates to 47 wins out of 100, and 53 losses. With $1,000 per (or $900 for a loss), rounding the numbers would be a disservice and misleading information.

Quote: thecesspit

For Blackjack there's a difference between the EV and the frequency of winners.

You win less than half the hands, and make your money "back" on the splits, doubles and blackjacks.

The exact numbers are published somewhere for some rule sets, but no idea where that is.

I do realize this, and have "sort of decided" that this offer is only beneficial to the player for a very short trial.

Specifically:

0.47% equates to $47.00 per $1,000 wager as the house advantage (theoretical win). That advantage is on every wager made.

Regardless of the results, win, lose, or push, the house theoretical is $47.00 per $1,000 bet.

With that thinking, it now seems apparent to me, that this rebate offer is still player friendly, but only until approximately $2100 total wagers are made. Effectively 4 hands @ $500 per, if there are no doubles, splits, etc.

After the sum of $2100 total bets is made, regardless of results, the house would have ground out the player temporary advantage, although the house win would become a lower theoretical, increasing toward the expected norm as more and more trials are made.

I'm hoping the Wizard will come along and comment, as well as those who have played this offer. :)

Am I on the money with my thinking this is not an "Advantage Play" long term, yet short term does have benefits, and once those limits are reached, if truly a high roller, a return to a more prestigious gaming venue for better comps should be made?

Incidentally, I am NOT a high roller. But I am willing to make Advantage Plays when I think I'm getting the best of it.

Thanks!

A game where you win 47 times and lose 53 is not a 0.47% house advantage.
$100 per hand :

47 winners : +$4,700
53 Losers : -$5,300

Total loss = $600 on $10,000 bet = 6% House advantage, or 94% EV.

It's pretty close to betting the odds/evens in Roulette.

Here's the table I was looking for :

https://wizardofodds.com/blackjack/appendix4.html

So for 100 hands you'll get (roughly) :

4.5 Blackjacks
32 Single bet winners
6 2+ bet winners
8.5 Pushes
40 Single bet losses
4.5 2+ bet losers
4.5 Surrenders (half bet losses).

If you assumed no more than one split or double, $1000 per hand :

Blackjacks : $6,750
Winners : $32,000
Multi Winners : $12,000
Pushes : $0
Surrenders : -$2,250
Losers : - $40,000
Multi Losers : -$9,000

Total after = -$500 = 0.5% EV (close as dammit to your 0.47%).
With loss rebate of 10% :

Blackjacks : $6,750
Winners : $32,000
Multi Winners : $12,000
Pushes : $0
Surrenders : -$2,025
Losers : - $36,000
Multi Losers : -$8,100

Total after = +$4625

Hope this helps.

I would say you'd need 10000-100000 trials to properly decide, 100 isn't even close. The problem with betting 1k a single time is that although your EV is in the positive range, you are completely getting rid of any variance (standard deviations) - it's either you win it or you lose it. I would recommend that you walk up and buy in for $1000 and bet in units of $250. I'm fairly certain you'd still be in +EV territory, have the ability to double up / split / resplit (the EV you lose from flat betting 1k and not being able to double/split is probably more than what you lose by betting $250 instead of 1k), bow out at $500-750 up if that's a somewhat life changing amount of money for you. If losing a few grand isn't a problem, I think starting at $500 and running a martingale would be an awesome few minutes.

Quote: ahiromu

I would say you'd need 10000-100000 trials to properly decide, 100 isn't even close. The problem with betting 1k a single time is that although your EV is in the positive range, you are completely getting rid of any variance (standard deviations) - it's either you win it or you lose it. I would recommend that you walk up and buy in for $1000 and bet in units of $250. I'm fairly certain you'd still be in +EV territory, have the ability to double up / split / resplit (the EV you lose from flat betting 1k and not being able to double/split is probably more than what you lose by betting $250 instead of 1k), bow out at $500-750 up if that's a somewhat life changing amount of money for you. If losing a few grand isn't a problem, I think starting at $500 and running a martingale would be an awesome few minutes.

Maximum bet at Terrible's is $500.00 Multiple hands may be played.

I purposely chose a trial of 100 because that would represent 100 separate and distinct visits to the casino. Each session is a 24 hour period plus a few minutes, to maintain eligibility for rebate on a loss.

Yes, I seek the actual expectation, and realize millions of trials would be appropriate to reach accurate numbers. But on a practical basis, there is basically no way for any player to have more than about 350 "results" in a year. 100 distinct visits for a resident or frequent visitor is doable. More than that is unlikely for most, there are easier ways to make money. But, each distinct visit should take less than 1 hour, including parking the car and going in, etc.

So, if I can "find" the expected normal distribution of results for this offer, using a max bet of $500.00, with adequate bankroll, the EV of this offer could be determined, whether plus or minus.

And that is what I'm looking for. The actual EV, long term, even though it will only be for 100 trials.

Perfect strategy would be used. Doubles, splits, etc. Losing more than $1000 because of splits, doubles, etc is not an issue, it is part of the EV, and there will be occasions where more than $1,000 will be won because of those type of hands.

Quote: RoadTrip

I purposely did not want to round off the calculations I made, wanting to have an exact EV, whether plus or minus, and figuring the rebate into the losses.

Since the game is known to be 0.47%, in the long term, that equates to 47 wins out of 100, and 53 losses. With $1,000 per (or $900 for a loss), rounding the numbers would be a disservice and misleading information.

A .47% house advantage means that you should expect to lose $4.70 for every $1000 that you wager. The house will win about 50.235% of the decisions, and the player will win about 49.765% of decisions.

*edit* in an even money game. Which others have correctly pointed out is not the case with BJ.

Quote: thecesspit

A game where you win 47 times and lose 53 is not a 0.47% house advantage.
$100 per hand :

47 winners : +$4,700
53 Losers : -$5,300

Total loss = $600 on $10,000 bet = 6% House advantage, or 94% EV.

It's pretty close to betting the odds/evens in Roulette.

Here's the table I was looking for :

https://wizardofodds.com/blackjack/appendix4.html

So for 100 hands you'll get (roughly) :

4.5 Blackjacks
32 Single bet winners
6 2+ bet winners
8.5 Pushes
40 Single bet losses
4.5 2+ bet losers
4.5 Surrenders (half bet losses).

If you assumed no more than one split or double, $100 per hand :

Blackjacks : $6,750
Winners : $32,000
Multi Winners : $12,000
Pushes : $0
Surrenders : -$2,250
Losers : - $40,000
Multi Losers : -$9,000

Total after = -$500 = 0.5% EV (close as dammit to your 0.47%).

With loss rebate of 10% :

Blackjacks : $6,750
Winners : $32,000
Multi Winners : $12,000
Pushes : $0
Surrenders : -$2,025
Losers : - $36,000
Multi Losers : -$8,100

Total after = +$4625

Hope this helps.

Thanks. Now I am completely confused. Could you please simplify your last respons ? Are you saying the expectation for this 10% loss rebate is +4625 after 100 hands with perfect distribution of potential results? A profit of $46.25 per $500 wager?

Remember, to qualify for the 10% loss rebate, a $1,000 loss is required. The loss rebate for $500.00 - $999.00 is 5%.

I'm primarily interested in knowing the numbers over 100 "sessions" (days) when the strategy being used is:
1: a stop loss of $1,000+ (or more due to doubles & splits, etc), or a win of $1,000 or more
2: perfect strategy is used for the rules of the game to double, split, DAS, etc.

It is likely that most sessions will be more than 1 hand played, although due to doubles, splits, etc, there should be sessions where only one hand is played. There could also be sessions where more than 4+ hands are played with pushes, etc.

Thanks

<deleted>

I'm utterly confused by the math and by the reasoning. I'll try to print it out and work through this math stuff today.

I know the review of Terribles was somewhat favorable in certain respects and I know that they are having a ten year anniversary soon and may be offering some "goodies" of some sort, but I would question anyone's desire to go to Terribles.

As for the math:
Are you including the cost and annoyance of having to leave Terribles to go get something to eat?
Are you including the annoyance at being served alcohol-flavored water in tiny little ice-filled thimbles?
Are you including the annoyance at the noise level and your increased costs due to security concerns over the safety of any jacket that your companion might foolishly remove and place on the chair next to her?
Add up all this non-monetary stuff and that ten percent rebate had better be a darn good. I just don't see how ten percent of a thousand dollar loss could be anything more than a one-hundred dollar rebate and for one hundred dollars, I'd prefer to go to a casino that is more quiet, less of a dive, and serves better quality cocktails on a more frequent basis.

Good point. Terrible's is kind of a dump. Some people like to promo-chase, though, and they've had some good ones. That said, I don't see this one as being that spectacular. There are better ones right now, like Palms' and Tuscany's gift card play-and-earns.

I do like to promo-chase certain types of offers. In 2009, I made extensive coupon runs over the total of 55+ days I spent in Vegas, using literally hundreds of match play coupons, and other offers. I "hit and run", and would consider this offer at Terrible's as an excellent candidate for that approach. Specifically, spend as little time there as needed, play the max bet of $500 at BJ, two hands, and "quit" when I win or lose $1,000 (or more).

I could spend a little as 5-10 minutes inside, but would do so every 24+ hours during visits. I think of my "advantage play" and coupons runs as a part time job, the price I pay to visit Vegas. The EV of those offers pay for the expenses of my trips. My profit on a trip will come from playing cash game poker.

I do not "gamble" at any table game or machine without an advantage. Usually a match play or FSP offer. And I will only play the minimum. I usually do not chase promotions that offer gift cards, gifts, point multipliers, etc. I do it for the cash.

And Terrible's offer could be worth maybe $40.00 average? Not too bad for an hour per day. :)

My numbers were based on $1000 hands, not $100 as I previously wrote.

If I get a chance over the weekend, I'll through together a quick simulation using $500 per hand and win $1000/lose $1000 as your goals.

Quote: thecesspit

My numbers were based on $1000 hands, not $100 as I previously wrote.

If I get a chance over the weekend, I'll through together a quick simulation using $500 per hand and win $1000/lose $1000 as your goals.

THANKS YOU!

I truly am trying to determine if this rebate promotion is +EV, and if so, how much.

Any chance you'd do the same thing for craps? It may be a little easier, since a player could bet $500 and take, or lay the odds, so the majority of individual bets would result in a decision and "goal", ending a session. Only a 7, 11, or 12 would result in the necessity of playing a second hand, or more.

Or, can you recommend software that is free, or a trial version, that would be able to offer the information I'm looking for? I am more than willing to try that.

THANK you.

Quote: RoadTrip

I do like to promo-chase certain types of offers. In 2009, I made extensive coupon runs over the total of 55+ days I spent in Vegas, using literally hundreds of match play coupons, and other offers. I "hit and run", and would consider this offer at Terrible's as an excellent candidate for that approach. Specifically, spend as little time there as needed, play the max bet of $500 at BJ, two hands, and "quit" when I win or lose $1,000 (or more).

I could spend a little as 5-10 minutes inside, but would do so every 24+ hours during visits. I think of my "advantage play" and coupons runs as a part time job, the price I pay to visit Vegas. The EV of those offers pay for the expenses of my trips. My profit on a trip will come from playing cash game poker.

I do not "gamble" at any table game or machine without an advantage. Usually a match play or FSP offer. And I will only play the minimum. I usually do not chase promotions that offer gift cards, gifts, point multipliers, etc. I do it for the cash.

And Terrible's offer could be worth maybe $40.00 average? Not too bad for an hour per day. :)

Thanks, RoadTrip. I've read your posts over at LVA. My philosophy is similar. I try to cover my costs with promos, too, but can't stay away from the regular games :( Also, the coupons are getting fewer and farer between. For example, LVA now offers two 2-1 blackjack payout coupons up to $25 at Golden Gate and Terrible's, which have a value of approximately $12, but with a very high variance. That's not as appealing to me as a match play. Some of the point multipliers can be good on video poker, but last time I tried them the variance killed me.

The Palms gift card promotion is nice because you can earn a $100 Visa gift card, which is as good as cash, if they are doing it the same as last year. I recommend it if you are there on a Monday, Wednesday or Friday.

Quote: teddys

Thanks, RoadTrip. I've read your posts over at LVA. My philosophy is similar. I try to cover my costs with promos, too, but can't stay away from the regular games :( Also, the coupons are getting fewer and farer between. For example, LVA now offers two 2-1 blackjack payout coupons up to $25 at Golden Gate and Terrible's, which have a value of approximately $12, but with a very high variance. That's not as appealing to me as a match play. Some of the point multipliers can be good on video poker, but last time I tried them the variance killed me.

The Palms gift card promotion is nice because you can earn a $100 Visa gift card, which is as good as cash, if they are doing it the same as last year. I recommend it if you are there on a Monday, Wednesday or Friday.

I consider myself disciplined, although I have been known to occasionally gamble. The assorted gift card promotions have too much risk usually associated with them. I'm not saying they are not profitable offers long term, I do not know because I usually would not consider them as "wise". The ROR may be too little on a "bad" pay table VP machine. And to redeem, would probably require a thousand dollars or more coin in.

I seek "fast". The longer I "gamble" the bigger the grind. I do visit the Palm's, to play poker. I found the games "soft". I also did use quite a few match plays there in 2009.

I'm well aware of the LVA MRB & ACG offerings. 2010 did not provide enough equity and I did not visit Vegas, nor buy either book. I will evaluate 2011 when LVA releases their offerings. Of course, I have already looked at 2011 ACG.

If the EV is there, I'd return. If not, probably not. I am frugal.

But, I suspect this Terrible's offer may be "big" enough in the EV area to offset a significant portion of a furgal Vegas visit, done "roadtrip" style. :)

If you read my 2009 TR's, First one was May or June, I was a "Vegas Virgin" per se, you know exactly what I mean, do, and would intend to do on future Vegas visits. Probably not fun for most, but I do enjoy myself. :)

Here's my estimate. The process I use generates each result at random with a frequency equal to the number of times that result can occur for all probabilities. Some people have said this is not a good method to simulate with. I think it works as close as damn it.

I plugged in the frequencies from the Wizard's BlackJack Table I gave above. I ran a simulation of 1 million sessions, where a session is playing $500 Blackjack, with surrender, and risking no more than $2000 on anyone hand. The simulation ran until you had won $1000 or lost a $1000. I then assumed you got a full 10% rebate on the loss.

I haven't looked at Standard deviations, risk of ruin or any good stuff like that. I can certainly extend the simulation to collect relevant information like that.

Average Win : $1135.77, Average Loss : $1091.25
Average Hands : 4
Average session win : $49.27
Resultant EV : 1.0250 (2.5%).
Winning sessions : 48.7%

How's that?

Quote: thecesspit

Here's my estimate. The process I use generates each result at random with a frequency equal to the number of times that result can occur for all probabilities. Some people have said this is not a good method to simulate with. I think it works as close as damn it.

I plugged in the frequencies from the Wizard's BlackJack Table I gave above. I ran a simulation of 1 million sessions, where a session is playing $500 Blackjack, with surrender, and risking no more than $2000 on anyone hand. The simulation ran until you had won $1000 or lost a $1000. I then assumed you got a full 10% rebate on the loss.

I haven't looked at Standard deviations, risk of ruin or any good stuff like that. I can certainly extend the simulation to collect relevant information like that.

Average Win : $1135.77, Average Loss : $1091.25
Average Hands : 4
Average session win : $49.27
Resultant EV : 1.0250 (2.5%).
Winning sessions : 48.7%

How's that?

Terrific!

There is no surrender option. How much will that change the EV?

Also, the $500 is a "flat" bet with my goals. But there is no upper limit and it could be possible, with one hand bet at $500, to hit 4 splits/re-splits and than double all 4, putting a total of $4,000 in play and at risk on the one hand.

And would love to know the other good stuff as well.

Since the maximum number of sessions I could conceivably play would be 50 -100 during 2011, if the promotion is not pulled, deviation and risk of ruin need to be considered with that amount of money at risk for such a small return and short number of sessions. I'd particularly like ROR for 25, 50, 75, & 100 sessions, as well as deviation.

What software did you use for this simulation?

Thanks so much.

I use my own simulator I wrote in Groovy. It just works for picking possible results. It does NOT play black jack, so it's dependent on other calculations for possible results to be correct.

I'll try removing the surrender. Do you know what the rough house edge is for this set up? It gives me confidence that I've got the simulation about right. I am using the table given by the wizard, so it may be that I we are simulating a game much better than that at Terrible's.

I can only do a RoR if you give me the bank roll to risk for...

I'll extend up to a possible win/loss of 8 units as well... I just used 4 to get it done quickly.

Somewhere in the original Terrible's thread or trip report, not sure which, I seem to recall seeing 0.47% for the double deck game, and 0.53 (???) for the 6 deck shoe. But I really do not know.

Bankroll in theory is unlimited, but for the sake of reality, use 15K. And if you don't mind, "unlimited" as well.

And the odds of an 8 unit event actually happening has got to be pretty enormous. :) In fact, considering the actual number of sessions I could conceivably play would be 50 - 100, an 8 unit event would certainly skew the numbers. Does your stimulation show the quantity of each event happening?

Although the bankroll is "unlimited", I know that if I got stuck 12K-15K or so, I'd consider giving it up considering the limited number of sessions I could reasonably expect to play from that point forward during the year.

I have the "fear" that if someone were to do too well with this promo, Terrible's would eventually "back them off".

Thanks again.

Well, I can't do a risk of ruin on an unlimited bankroll :) I can do give a lowest and highest bankroll point though. And then I'll run with a 15k bankroll.

The overall quantities are shown in the page by the wizard. I can track them.

I'll let you do the research the find the exact rules, I'll just approximate.

Quote: thecesspit

Well, I can't do a risk of ruin on an unlimited bankroll :) I can do give a lowest and highest bankroll point though. And then I'll run with a 15k bankroll.

The overall quantities are shown in the page by the wizard. I can track them.

I'll let you do the research the find the exact rules, I'll just approximate.

rules:

dealer hits soft 17
split any pair up to 4 hands
DAS
Aces split once
No hit on split aces
no surrender
double any two
bj pays 3-2

thanks

Just a quick result : With 25 sessions, I didn't get a single instance in 1000 runs of going over $15,000. Highest was ~$14,000 in the hole. Best win was ~$19,000

Will do more over weekend.

Obviously, your mileage may vary, and I offer no guarantee on these results if you use them to make a decision to go gambling.

The information so far is very interesting and promising!

What happens to the results if the daily "goal" (win or lose) are changed from $1,000 to $2,000? $3,000?

Or if the Win goal becomes $2,000 while the stop loss remains at $1,000? $3,000 vs $1,500?

After looking at the initial results, greed is rearing her ugly head. :)

What is "groovy"? Is this something I could do with my near zero programming knowledge, and reasonable Win 7 abilities?

Feel like I'm imposing on your good nature and kindness if I could do this myself with the proper software. So many questions. :)

Thanks

Groovy is a Java-like programming language. I wouldn't say it's that simple to use. I've hand crafted the code, it might be full of errors. If you haven't coded before, I don't think it's a good language to start in, as there's only a few sources of info I've seen, and there definitely aimed at the experienced coder. Python is easier to learn and you can do much the same in Python as in Groovy. It's just that my industry-area uses Groovy as it's scripting language of choice, so I've been learning it, and this and the Video Poker simulation are good tasks to learn a bit more. Plus I find the results interesting.

Now I have the central bit "down" I can run various simulations as you mention. I'll do a few more over the weekend and post the results here.

If I was REAL programmer (TM) I could give you the scripts with some options to change and you could DIY. But I'm not... though how's your Excel knowledge... that's a good tool to analyse some of the results I generate, if that would help you?

Quote: thecesspit

Groovy is a Java-like programming language. I wouldn't say it's that simple to use. I've hand crafted the code, it might be full of errors. If you haven't coded before, I don't think it's a good language to start in, as there's only a few sources of info I've seen, and there definitely aimed at the experienced coder. Python is easier to learn and you can do much the same in Python as in Groovy. It's just that my industry-area uses Groovy as it's scripting language of choice, so I've been learning it, and this and the Video Poker simulation are good tasks to learn a bit more. Plus I find the results interesting.

Now I have the central bit "down" I can run various simulations as you mention. I'll do a few more over the weekend and post the results here.

If I was REAL programmer (TM) I could give you the scripts with some options to change and you could DIY. But I'm not... though how's your Excel knowledge... that's a good tool to analyse some of the results I generate, if that would help you?

I have the OpenOffice Org suite, which includes an Excel like program.

I also have a very old MS Office pro set, (Win 95 or 98), but probably backward compatible with Win 7 and could try and install if the Open Office is not. Since I don't use or need most of that stuff, my computer is more "recreational" than work, when I got this laptop and upgraded from Vista to Win 7, I elected to use open source software as much as possible if available for my needs.

But using the spreadsheet is going to be a big learning curve for me. Unless it's got all the formulas and stuff already built in. I've tried to "build" a custom spreadsheet for something, with formulas, and that was a disaster. Did not find a template anywhere that met my needs. I could learn, and keep meaning too, but have other priorities. :::shrug:::

As for my analyzing the results, not certain I do that in depth, more of a seat of the pants, this looks good, think of a question, look for the answer sort of thing.

I'm not a programmer, or computer savvy. I do know my way around the net, etc, and can navigate my way to data banks to find and fix most problems I encounter, but that's about it.

No worries, was going to offer to send you raw results, so you could do your own analysis in Excel or Open office (though after using it last night, Open office is lacking in many places, and i really must pay M$ for a home copy of Excel).

Otherwise, you'll get what I give you then ;)