Pay to Play - Ultimate Texas Holdem

My local casino just recently opened an Ultimate Texas Holdem table. I had read about the strategy and rules here before, but had yet to play. So, I decided to try it out.

To my surprise, they required the player to pay 50 cents per hand to play. I wasn't sure if this was just to increase the house edge, or a requirement from the state I'm in (Minnesota). It is an Indian casino, not a state run card room, which makes me think it's for the house edge.

The table limit is $1-$10 usually, so I'm wondering how much worse my odds are? Is there a $$ amount I should be betting in order to make up this edge? It feels silly betting $1 on ante/blind when I'm paying 50 cents a hand.

Thanks!

I can't figure out the MN rules. Treasure Island used to charge $0.50/hand on pai gow poker, ms stud, and ultimate texas holdem. Then they stopped (and pulled out the ms stud table, too). I think those are/were player banked games there, with a player pool funding the bonuses. So the ante theoretically seeded that pool.

To answer your direct question, it depends on your objective. You are expected to lose the least if you bet $1 on the ante and pay the $0.50. But the house edge per bet is lowest if you bet $10 on the ante. Betting $1, you lose about $0.01 + $0.50 each hand on average, or 51% of your $1 bet. Betting $10, you lose about $0.10 + $0.50 each hand on average, or 6% of your $10 bet.

Depending on your location and bankroll, you might be better off driving to Canterbury or Running Aces (or to WI, IA, or SD) and playing the game without the ante.

You surely can not be serious in stating the TABLE MAX bet is $10. I've never seen a table at a casino have a max bet less than $100, outside "personal signs for flat betting" in AC.

I would think they do it to up the HE and ensure the "hold," but usually places that do stuff like this also "waive" the ante fee if you bet a certain amount, say $25/hand or something.

If you're playing $1 ante/blind and paying $0.50/hand in a fee, you're getting raped. You're losing half an ante just to play the hand. With perfect BS, which I've seen maybe 1 person EVER play at UTH, you're still a 2.19% dog (https://wizardofodds.com/games/ultimate-texas-hold-em/ ).

Ante = -16.58% HE
Blind = -31.47% HE
Play = 45.86% PE

So on an average hand you bet $1, $1, and then let's say you max bet for $4 (you should never 3x). What's your EV? Well it's hand dependent yes, but on "average":

Ante = 1 * -16.58% = -16.58 cents
Blind = 1 * -31.47% = -31.47 cents
Play = 4 * 45.86% = 183 cents

Remember, this is on a hand basic strategy tells you to bet 4 bet, which you'll generally have an advantage. I'm trying to show you how damaging it is to your "best case scenario." rdw is correct that if you bet more, you would have slightly better odds, because the $0.50 is static and will have less of an effect as the other numbers get bigger. Your will still go up much more (because you're betting more) but the HE will go down in relation to the $0.50 charge per hand.

Overall you can expect to make $1.35 return on your $6 in action... If you have to pay $0.50 per hand, you're giving up 37% of your expected value! A game where in your "best case scenario" they take almost 40% of your money "just cuz" I should hope you can see how god awful and illegal this should be. Shame on this greedy ass indian casino.

Plenty of casinos have a $25 table max for UTH.

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

Plenty of casinos have a $25 table max for UTH.

Ones that have been beaten like a red headed step child and may or may not have "greek" in the name.

Quote: Romes

Ones that have been beaten like a red headed step child and may or may not have "greek" in the name.

I'm talking all over the country. You need to get out more :-)

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

I'm talking all over the country. You need to get out more :-)

Indeed I do! lol Where do you play? Apparently they just give away royal flushes every day...

Quote: Romes

Indeed I do! lol Where do you play? Apparently they just give away royal flushes every day...

Anywhere but here :-)

I've had one royal.

Quote: Romes

Indeed I do! lol Where do you play? Apparently they just give away royal flushes every day...

Last time I was at Wildhorse in Pendleton, OR, they had max $25 on Ante-Blind, max $100 on Trips.

In WA, the max bet is $300, so although I never see it clearly posted at the table, I would imagine the max Ante-Blind is 25% of that to allow for a 4-bet.

Quote: Romes

Ones that have been beaten like a red headed step child and may or may not have "greek" in the name.

For the record, the "lion" place is $500 max.

Or how about Harrahs St Louis used to have $5 minimum and $5 maximum on Mississippi stud. They eventually raised it to $10.That must have put them out of business since they sold out to Hollywood.

Quote: Hunterhill

Or how about Harrahs St Louis used to have $5 minimum and $5 maximum on Mississippi stud. They eventually raised it to $10.That must have put them out of business since they sold out to Hollywood.

$25 max on these games is a gaming regulation in MO. Unless the floor supervisor was lying to us.

Quote: Romes

I should hope you can see how god awful and illegal this should be. Shame on this greedy ass indian casino.

If they do have player funded promotions or allow players to bank it's not as bad as it seems. I wish more casinos took a commission if they gave at least 50% back in player funded promotions. Sure it sucks for the ploppys but so does live keno.

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

$25 max on these games is a gaming regulation in MO. Unless the floor supervisor was lying to us.

We all know a floor supervisor would never lie to a player :)

San Jose, CA is even worse...they spread UTH at M8trix and Bay 101 where it's $1 for every $100 wagered and the base game and Trips are treated as separate bets, so $5 Ante + $5 Blind + $5 Trips would cost you an additional $2 to play.