PlayBJ
• Posts: 15
Joined: Jul 26, 2010
July 27th, 2010 at 5:20:35 AM permalink
Hi I am looking for the house advantage
with the rules as shown below for Delaware
Park Casino

Number of decks of cards used: 6
Dealer stands on a soft 17:
Player can double after a split: yes
Player can double on: any first two cards
Player can resplit to: unlimited hands
Player can resplit aces: 4 times
Player can hit split aces: no
Player loses only original bet against dealer BJ: yes
Late surrender allowed: yes
Blackjack pays: 3 to 2
customer cannot split 10's
and using a continuous shuffler
Optimal results: ?
Realistic results: ?
rdw4potus
• Posts: 7237
Joined: Mar 11, 2010
July 27th, 2010 at 6:17:28 AM permalink
You changed this from your blog post to here. Does BJ pay 6:5 or 3:2? If it's 3:2, then the HA is very close to .285% based on realistic play. The wizard has a calculator over on the BJ page at www.wizardofodds.com. Based on the format of your question, it looks like you've found it. The only difference between your rules set and my calculation is the infinite resplitting in your rules. That will help you, but only very minimally so.
"So as the clock ticked and the day passed, opportunity met preparation, and luck happened." - Maurice Clarett
PlayBJ
• Posts: 15
Joined: Jul 26, 2010
July 27th, 2010 at 2:16:52 PM permalink
Yes i made an error a typo 3:2 is correct are these liberal rules
rdw4potus
• Posts: 7237
Joined: Mar 11, 2010
July 27th, 2010 at 2:28:50 PM permalink
Very liberal. About the only realistic way to improve this game would be to play with fewer decks.
"So as the clock ticked and the day passed, opportunity met preparation, and luck happened." - Maurice Clarett
PlayBJ
• Posts: 15
Joined: Jul 26, 2010
July 27th, 2010 at 2:39:25 PM permalink
The 4 X splitting of Aces and the
unlimited splits is off the chart
the .285 is on the chart you mean
there is now advantage to the player
on the unlimited splits and the
spliting of aces 4 X
Niblick
• Posts: 108
Joined: Dec 12, 2009
July 28th, 2010 at 6:44:44 AM permalink
I understand they use the CSM's at Delaware Park...is this true? FWIW both Harrington and Dover deal from a shoe (there are a couple of tables where they use a CSM at Harrington--but, from what I recall, these are the BJ derivative games).
Nemo Omnibus Horis Sapit
rdw4potus
• Posts: 7237
Joined: Mar 11, 2010
July 28th, 2010 at 6:56:26 AM permalink
Situations where splitting infinite times and splitting aces 4 times will come up very rarely. The added benefit of those rules is not enough to swing the overall game to a player advantage, but it does make the HA slightly less than the .285%.
"So as the clock ticked and the day passed, opportunity met preparation, and luck happened." - Maurice Clarett
PlayBJ
• Posts: 15
Joined: Jul 26, 2010
July 28th, 2010 at 3:16:32 PM permalink
How much less and how do I figure this out. I like to learn
rudeboyoi
• Posts: 2001
Joined: Mar 28, 2010
July 28th, 2010 at 3:38:03 PM permalink
i find it kind of odd that you can split aces only up to 4 times and other hands an unlimited number of times. they should just limit you to either up to 4 splits for every hand or an unlimited number of splits on every hand. its not gonna make a difference much one way or another.
PlayBJ
• Posts: 15
Joined: Jul 26, 2010
July 28th, 2010 at 3:57:22 PM permalink
Can you give me a hard number
rdw4potus
• Posts: 7237
Joined: Mar 11, 2010
July 28th, 2010 at 4:57:30 PM permalink
I can try to walk through an example. (someone should check my math...)

Say you're alone at the table, and the dealer has just had you cut a new shoe.

Say your first card is an X and the dealer's first card is a Y. The odds that your second card is an X are ((6*4)-1)/((52*6)-2)=23/310. So there's a 7.5% chance that you'll pair your first card. You'll only want to split a fraction of those paired combinations, but I have ignored that for this example. I have also ignored the fact that even during the times you'll want to split, splitting is only marginally beneficial.

The odds of getting a 3rd X are ((6*4)-2)/((52*6)-3)=22/309, and the odds of getting a 4th paired card are ((6*4)-3)/((52*6)-4)=21/308. The odds of getting a hand to split 3 times into 4 hands are 23/310*22/309*21/308=.036%, or 1:2750 hands.

The odds of getting 5 matched cards are .00036*((6*4)-4)/((52*6)-5)=.00036*(20/307)=.00234% or 1:42600, and the odds of 6 matched cards are .0000234*((6*4)-5)/((52*6)-6)=.0000234*(19/306)=.000145% or 1:688000.

So having the right to split to 5 hands instead of 4 will only affect your play 1 in 42500 hands (1 in 14 hands when you already have 4 matched cards.)

The rarity of the times that you'll have 5 cards to split is what made me say that the infinite splitting would only help you a tiny bit.
"So as the clock ticked and the day passed, opportunity met preparation, and luck happened." - Maurice Clarett
PlayBJ
• Posts: 15
Joined: Jul 26, 2010
July 29th, 2010 at 3:48:11 PM permalink
RDW4POTUS I found out two more variables at Delaware Park Casino
they us a continuos shuffler and player cannot split 10's
miplet
• Posts: 2116
Joined: Dec 1, 2009
July 29th, 2010 at 4:16:44 PM permalink
Quote: rdw4potus

I can try to walk through an example. (someone should check my math...)

https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/blackjack/2036-probability-of-split-hands-infinite-deck/
This is from ininite decks and only to 4 hands:
1 hand = 12/13
2 hands = 144/2197
3 hands = 3456/371293
4 hands = 769/371293
Or 1 in 482 hands can be split into 4 hands.
“Man Babes” #AxelFabulous
PlayBJ
• Posts: 15
Joined: Jul 26, 2010
July 30th, 2010 at 3:44:43 PM permalink
Is this for the aces 3 hands for a total of 4 what about the unlimited splits what do i do there and how does the continuous shuffler effect the house advantage.
miplet
• Posts: 2116
Joined: Dec 1, 2009
July 30th, 2010 at 4:14:33 PM permalink
Quote: PlayBJ

Is this for the aces 3 hands for a total of 4 what about the unlimited splits what do i do there and how does the continuous shuffler effect the house advantage.

A continuous shuffler lowers the house edge. Only 1 in 6277 hand will end up as aces split to 4 hands. The differance in HE from spliting to 4 hands and unlimmited spliting is very small (less than .01% is my guess). Overall I get a house edge of 0.26197%
“Man Babes” #AxelFabulous
PlayBJ
• Posts: 15
Joined: Jul 26, 2010
July 30th, 2010 at 5:20:35 PM permalink
Hi Miplet,

Thanks for the reply with all the rules in place at Delaware Park you get .26197% HE I am way off

6 deck +0.54
double down on any cards -0.24
double down after spliting pairs -0.14
late surrender -0.06
re - split aces -0.06

total 0.04
rdw4potus
• Posts: 7237
Joined: Mar 11, 2010
July 30th, 2010 at 6:02:06 PM permalink
Quote: PlayBJ

Hi Miplet,

Thanks for the reply with all the rules in place at Delaware Park you get .26197% HE I am way off

6 deck +0.54
double down on any cards -0.24
double down after spliting pairs -0.14
late surrender -0.06
re - split aces -0.06
draw to split aces -0.14

total -0.10

I don't understand what you're doing here. How are you getting those adjustments, and why are you starting from 0? Are you sure there's no native house advantage before you start adjusting?

Also, your original set of rule stipulations said that hitting split aces was not allowed. Can you actually draw to split aces in the game at Delaware Park? That would lower the HA quite a bit from the .26197% to .08432%.
"So as the clock ticked and the day passed, opportunity met preparation, and luck happened." - Maurice Clarett
PlayBJ
• Posts: 15
Joined: Jul 26, 2010
July 31st, 2010 at 3:05:07 PM permalink
Sorry rdw4potus I edited the rules as I remembered them no draw to split aces.
PlayBJ
• Posts: 15
Joined: Jul 26, 2010
August 8th, 2010 at 7:58:18 PM permalink
with a house edge of .26197 and a customer using perfect basic strategy and card counting is the edge in my favor with a six deck hand shuffled game.
teddys
• Posts: 5529
Joined: Nov 14, 2009
August 9th, 2010 at 6:19:39 AM permalink
Quote: PlayBJ

with a house edge of .26197 and a customer using perfect basic strategy

No.
Quote:

card counting

Maybe.
"Dice, verily, are armed with goads and driving-hooks, deceiving and tormenting, causing grievous woe." -Rig Veda 10.34.4
PlayBJ
• Posts: 15
Joined: Jul 26, 2010
August 9th, 2010 at 6:25:20 AM permalink
With the house edge of .26197 if I use perfect basic and card count where am I with the house advantage. Does it turn to the player at that point.
odiousgambit
• Posts: 9618
Joined: Nov 9, 2009
August 9th, 2010 at 6:47:41 AM permalink
I was thinking they use continuous shuffle? doesn't that kill card counting?
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!”   She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
PlayBJ
• Posts: 15
Joined: Jul 26, 2010
August 9th, 2010 at 8:48:47 AM permalink
not in the high limit
Ibeatyouraces
• Posts: 11933
Joined: Jan 12, 2010
August 9th, 2010 at 8:59:37 AM permalink
deleted
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
PlayBJ
• Posts: 15
Joined: Jul 26, 2010
August 9th, 2010 at 9:38:24 AM permalink
they manual shuffle in the high limit
odiousgambit
• Posts: 9618
Joined: Nov 9, 2009
August 10th, 2010 at 4:00:05 AM permalink
somehow this got lost, somebody should have the answer.

you probably should have started a new thread, there are always folks who stop following certain threads, myself included.

I'm the wrong person to ask, but I suspect at least a minimal player advantage should obtain when the count is favorable. Even the simple ace-five card count can give player advantage up to .57% according to the WoO page below, depending on how good the count is at the time.

https://wizardofodds.com/blackjack/wizardcount.html
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!”   She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
wrxrob
• Posts: 47
Joined: Aug 28, 2010
August 28th, 2010 at 12:41:59 AM permalink
For the record, I played in Delaware Park recently, and they did not offer surrender. At least, the dealer shook his head as if he had never heard of surrender.
odiousgambit
• Posts: 9618
Joined: Nov 9, 2009
August 28th, 2010 at 4:55:08 AM permalink
Quote: wrxrob

For the record, I played in Delaware Park recently, and they did not offer surrender. At least, the dealer shook his head as if he had never heard of surrender.

Using one of the magnificent tools available at WoO site, it appears the house edge goes from 0.28507% to 0.35767%, realistic window, with no surrender allowed. I input the info from the first post of this thread, changing the surrender bit.

It sure would be nice to be able to nail these things down.

I also am quite curious as to what the minimums are at the tables these days, esp at Harrington.
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!”   She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
Doc
• Posts: 7287
Joined: Feb 27, 2010
August 28th, 2010 at 9:53:43 AM permalink
Quote: odiousgambit

I also am quite curious as to what the minimums are at the tables these days, esp at Harrington.

Here's another vote/request for that info. At the end of my September trip, I will be passing through Delaware, and I have to decide whether to add a day to visit the three casinos. If they are operating like other new eastern-time-zone casinos, where folks were claiming they have crowded tables with minimums of \$100 or \$200, I will pass on the opportunity.
njBJplayer2015