Practical casino math book
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I'm trying to learn practical casino math and have known from some websites including Wizard of Odds about pracical casino math book, 2nd Edition By Robert C. Hannum & Anthony N. Cabot. The publish price I understand was around $30. Can you please advise where I can buy this book at arround that price (I will pay for shipping ofcourse).
If possible, please send a copy of your reply to my email at anhdunghoang2001@yahoo.com
I look forward to your kind soonest reply.
Thanks and regards,
Dung Hoang
The Mathematics of Games and Gambling: second edition by Edward Packel.
Used from $21.42
Possibly the university bookstore will sell it for its cover price (listed here as $39.95). Otherwise, prices seem to be in the stratosphere.
http://www.unr.edu/gaming/suggested-literature/practical-casino-math
Quote: beachbumbabsYeah, the Hannun book is $250-475
Does the Wizard, or Teliot, or some of the other authors know about this? LOL
PS: this raises a question, is there actually an unmet-to-some-degree demand for quality gambling books? The listings mostly include the most awful stuff imaginable, total scams sometimes. It seems, really, that the publishing people are plenty eager for about anything [judging by this]. I once bought a book about "dealer's choice" poker games that was awful - the guy got published and I don't know how he graduated from high school!
here is my opinionQuote: dunghoangI look forward to your kind soonest reply.
Thanks and regards,
Dung Hoang
DO NOT BUY THAT BOOK
there is good math in it, and i thinks some other good stuffs but it has lots of
concepts (conclusions) that are just opinions and lots of things left out
they want to keep it simple, i figure (36-24-36)
like the super use of "the long run"
i remember back in school a Math Professor quoted from it and I ruined his class for 2 days, he said,
because i disagreed with that book
i am biased
free reading from this paper shows what i talk about (parts are taken from that book)
A Guide to Casino Mathematics
Robert C. Hannum
University of Denver
talking about Volatility and Risk
"Almost never (0.3%) will outcomes be more than 3 SD’s from expected outcome"
what IS almost never!
Sally says that is wrong!
this is a joke from a Math guy!
so narrow minded and closed vision
a pass line example follows
"Applying the volatility guidelines, we can say that there is a 95% chance the player’s actual win
will be between 49 units ahead and 77 units behind, and almost certainly (The 3 SD stuff)
between 81 units
ahead and 109 units behind."
no need to buy any of his books unless for entertainment purposes, i say
who knows what is fact and what is opinion or both
Oh, I do hear he is a very good speaker
btw,
NEVER buy any of my books either
that is fair
how about reading
Thorp, Edward O. (1984). The Mathematics of Gambling (that can be found online)
He is a neighbor of mine here in Newport Beach
i am biased
"work requirement"
could be no fun
Together with my free lesson on combinatorial analysis.
These will get you started.
Thank you very much for your recommendation. Actually I am not a high level match person and just know a little about gaming operation and math principle behind gaming operation. I'm trying to understand how to analyze promotion programs, pricing setting, rebate, discount and complimentary for e-gaming (slots and table games). Can anyone advise where I can find resources or analysis for the above subject? I'm posting a few particular cases for wizard and members' advice as well in advice area.
Thanks,
Dung.
Thanks,
Dung.
here is a good list to start looking at some of that math.
Quote: dunghoangTo Teliot, Wizard and every member,
Thank you very much for your recommendation. Actually I am not a high level match person and just know a little about gaming operation and math principle behind gaming operation. I'm trying to understand how to analyze promotion programs, pricing setting, rebate, discount and complimentary for e-gaming (slots and table games). Can anyone advise where I can find resources or analysis for the above subject? I'm posting a few particular cases for wizard and members' advice as well in advice area.
Thanks,
Dung.
Specific to that, teliot did just publish his book, Advanced Advantage Play, and there are chapters on the following:
Ch 123: Beating Promotions
Ch 124: Match Play Coupons
Ch 125: Blackjack Promotions and "Hold"
Ch 126: Don Johnson (loss rebates case study etc.)
Ch 127: Exploiting Loss Rebates in Blackjack
Ch 128: Exploiting Loss Rebates in Roulette
Ch 129: Exploiting Loss Rebates in Baccarat
Ch 130: The First Loss Rebate Theorem
Ch 131: The Second Loss Rebate Theorem
Ch 132: The Third Loss Rebate Theorem
Ch 133: The Revel 100% Loss Rebate Promotion
Ch 134: The Mathematics of Baccarat Non-Negotiable Chip Programs
Ch 135: Optimal Play against Baccarat Rolling Chip Programs
Perhaps what you're looking for is covered in those chapters, though there is a fair amount of marketing/promotion use info sprinkled among the chapters addressing specific games as well.
However, if it were me I would certainly start with the free links to his material teliot provided above. Good luck to you!
yes you MAYQuote: teliotMay I recommend my free very brief booklet on casino math.
i say ok, Grade B
i mean it is an "introduction"
"Hi, nice to meet you."
did not
vol 3 of
William Feller's classic math book start that way too
An Introduction (to Probability Theory...)
and in that Intro book of Feller's (different chapters)
i feel many times I missed the Intro!
in other words, it was way over my head!
I understand those chapters are for table games. How about analysis for slot machines? Another question is what is relation between slot drop and turnover?
Case 1: Xtra bonus slot promotion
Major proposed terms:
- Only applicable to members, each player is entitled for only one buy in per day
- Buy in $300 to get $100 free playing credit, for classic member
- Buy in $600 to get $200 free playing credit, for gold / platinum member
Case 2: Daily and weekly happiness lucky draw:
Major proposed terms:
- 200 points earned ($1,000 turnover): 1 coupon
- 5,000 points earned ($25,000 turnover): extra 20 coupon + $100 free play credits + 1 special draw ticket
- 6,000 points earned ($30,000 turnover): extra 30 coupon + $200 playing credits + 2 special draw ticket
- 7,000 points earned ($35,000 turnover): extra 50 coupon + $300 playing credits + 3 special draw ticket
- Promotion apply for 2 weeks for slot machine with member only and below prize:
$3,500 cash for total of 6 draws daily
$16,000 cash for total of 15 draws weekly
In total: $3,500 * 6 + $16,000 = $37,000 weekly for total of 36 daily draws and 15 special weekly draw per week.
Quote: dunghoangThanks Wizard,
I understand those chapters are for table games. How about analysis for slot machines? Another question is what is relation between slot drop and turnover?
dunghoang,
I am not the Wizard. He is also in green, but it will say "Wizard" where my name is "beachbumbabs". I help moderate this site, but I am not a professional mathematician, which the Wizard is.
teliot, the member who's been responding to you as well, IS a professional mathematician and very highly regarded in gaming, which is his specialty. I recommend you follow his advice very closely. Perhaps he will answer your specific case studies.
My personal, non-mathematical opinion is that case 1 is a very very good promotion for you, and case 2 is ok but not great. I do not have the mathematical skills to evaluate them by the numbers.
EDIT: My evaluation was for you as a player. I misunderstood, apparently, your role in these, and you are "the casino". I agree with teliot; 1 is very very bad for the casino, 2 I can't tell how much risk the casino is taking, but not much, in my opinion.
These sound like your current projects. What you are describing here has very little to do with "gaming math" as it is usually understood.Quote: dunghoangCan you analyze below case studies?
Case 1: Xtra bonus slot promotion
Major proposed terms:
- Only applicable to members, each player is entitled for only one buy in per day
- Buy in $300 to get $100 free playing credit, for classic member
- Buy in $600 to get $200 free playing credit, for gold / platinum member
Case 2: Daily and weekly happiness lucky draw:
Major proposed terms:
- 200 points earned ($1,000 turnover): 1 coupon
- 5,000 points earned ($25,000 turnover): extra 20 coupon + $100 free play credits + 1 special draw ticket
- 6,000 points earned ($30,000 turnover): extra 30 coupon + $200 playing credits + 2 special draw ticket
- 7,000 points earned ($35,000 turnover): extra 50 coupon + $300 playing credits + 3 special draw ticket
- Promotion apply for 2 weeks for slot machine with member only and below prize:
$3,500 cash for total of 6 draws daily
$16,000 cash for total of 15 draws weekly
In total: $3,500 * 6 + $16,000 = $37,000 weekly for total of 36 daily draws and 15 special weekly draw per week.
For case 1. You are trying to evaluate cost of "free play." Worst case scenario: they can get the free play every day, and all they have to do is cycle $400 through to cash out their $100, or cycle $800 to cash out their $200, you are going to lose a lot of money. On a 5% hold machine, for example, cycling $800 costs the player $40, so the player can take $160 a day from you. Bad deal for the casino. At any rate, you are encouraging abuse by allowing them to buy in every day. Just to make back your money on a $600 buy in would require (on a 5% hold machine) $4,000 of turnover, and that's just to break even. I would ditch #1.
For case 2, you would need to know the "hold" of your machines to evaluate the cost. At any rate, the cost of coupons and draw tickets is proportional to the number of players. And, the free play is not free, though its marginal cost is much less here due to the high turnover requirement.
Regarding case 2, promotion program is applicable to slots and hold % ranging from 5% - 10%. Do you have more comments on this case?
I'm still confusing about hold, handle or turnover of slot machine. for example, in case 2 to earn 1 coupon, patron has to earn 200 points which mean $1000 turnover in our system. Does that mean patron have to buy in $1000 and play or they can buy in and drop less than $1000 but still generate $1000 turnover or wager? How the metric works? This is for slow machines with hold% ranging from 5% - 10%.
I look forward to your analysis.
Thanks,
Dung.
Thanks,
Dung.
Yes.Quote: dunghoangTo clarify my understanding of math in case 1, I though the player cost only 5% of $600 cash buy in which is $30 to get 95% return of the free play of $200 which is $190. So the house will have theoretical loss of ($190-$30) = $160 for every single buy in of $600 if player just come and play at that level? Is my understanding is right?
Thanks,
Dung.
For case 2, you will have to hire me as a consultant to help you figure it out 8-)Quote: dunghoangThank you very much for your interesting analysis. You have showed me the math.
Regarding case 2, promotion program is applicable to slots and hold % ranging from 5% - 10%. Do you have more comments on this case?
I'm still confusing about hold, handle or turnover of slot machine. for example, in case 2 to earn 1 coupon, patron has to earn 200 points which mean $1000 turnover in our system. Does that mean patron have to buy in $1000 and play or they can buy in and drop less than $1000 but still generate $1000 turnover or wager? How the metric works? This is for slow machines with hold% ranging from 5% - 10%.
I look forward to your analysis.
Thanks,
Dung.
Do you have any books written about matematically analysis for promotion program such as lucky draw, rebate on loss, comp...?
Thanks,
Dung.
I've written nothing about lucky draw, but quite a bit about loss rebates and others. My AAP book covers loss rebates quite a bit, as well as non-negotiable chip programs. I have a spreadsheet that handles up to a three-tiered loss rebate program. If you work for a casino and have some questions, you should just contact me directly, as I said above.Quote: dunghoangDo you have any books written about matematically analysis for promotion program such as lucky draw, rebate on loss, comp...?
Dung, There is nothing special about my knowledge here, M.E. is first rate as are several others here. But, we are consultants, and this sounds like real work.Quote: MathExtremistEliot's previous message (May 12) might have been somewhat tongue-in-cheek, but it really would be worth hiring a consultant to help you bootstrap your loyalty program if your only alternative is to ask questions on the Internet. Reach out to teliot via private message. If he's not available, I know several Nevada player marketing managers who might be willing to moonlight as a consultant for a non-competing property. PM me if you're interested.
Quote: teliotDung, There is nothing special about my knowledge here, M.E. is first rate as are several others here. But, we are consultants, and this sounds like real work.
Thanks for the props but don't sell yourself short. This stuff might be trivial to a math Ph.D. but there are an awful lot of casino operators who rose through the ranks pitching cards or filling hoppers and have never been exposed to how to quantify the financial side of gaming operations. There will always be a need for experienced consulting services to help cover short-term knowledge gaps.
