UTH Percentage Question
I will confirm that Thunder Valley in CA does this. I just came back from there: one must play the hand to win Trips. I believe as long as the State and Tribal approve this version, casino can do it. Why would them not approve it? Of course, they do if the math is viable. Thunder Valley has the worst Trips payouts: Quad pays 20 to 1 on Trips. But, the table is mostly full.Quote: SwinglineDoes anyone know if a California casino can change a rule on Shuffle Master's UTH game? Specifically, can the Casino sweep the trips if the player decides to fold the hand? I have heard this is happening and I am curious to know if this is allowed and how much more, mathematically, does the casino collect by adopting this rule change?
1) Can fold and collect trips.
2) Can fold and collect trips only if community bonus.
3) Cannot fold and collect trips.
Quote: UCivanSHFL must have all these approved.
I'm not SHFL(now Bally's), but Pacman did answer this Q a while ago and said that the trips is supposed to be an independent pay. So I wouldn't assume SHFL has all those options approved.
Quote: DeucekiesI've seen three ways of doing it.
1) Can fold and collect trips.
2) Can fold and collect trips only if community bonus.
3) Cannot fold and collect trips.
Some casinos take up the issue and selecting the bet handling option as their own "Internal Control" authority and right.
The math and the procedures were approved that, if the player's hand made that hand rank result, it simply gets paid unconditionally. The house edge effect of this more strict treatment is small, as a bonus hand is a likely winner and is usually played, but not always.
"usually played"? far from the true. 3-of-a-kind, most freq hit, in the community cards and player having two low cards are very common. This makes a total difference in allowing to fold and get paid or not.Quote: PaigowdanThe house edge effect of this more strict treatment is small, as a bonus hand is a likely winner and is usually played, but not always.
Quote: UCivan"usually played"? far from the true. 3-of-a-kind, most freq hit, in the community cards and player having two low cards are very common. This makes a total difference in allowing to fold and get paid or not.
Yeah thinking about this some more, you're right, this is not an insignificant portion of the hit rate for the hand. Adds 2% to the house edge if it happens once every 200 hands total. Trips come on board 1 in 47.33, and I would roughly guess you would fold 1 in 4 of that subset?
http://oag.ca.gov/sites/all/files/agweb/pdfs/gambling/BGC_ult_texas.pdf
Quote:18. If the player receives a 3 of a Kind or higher, the trips bonus payouts are made regardless of whether
the hand wins, loses, or pushes.
NOTE: If the player has a 3 of a Kind or better, the trips bet always wins – even if the player folds.
Rule 18 leaves absolutely no doubt that a player should get paid on Trips Bonus no matter what the player does. If you are playing somewhere that is not paying you when you fold then I suppose you would have a valid gaming complaint if they are not disclosing this rule change on the table. I am not familiar with how California gaming complaints work but there are the official state UTH rules as a reference.
Edit: I notice that the chart under "Return Table" seems to be covering up text on the page and the Trips Bet charts are cutoff.
https://wizardofodds.com/games/ultimate-texas-hold-em/
Quote: UCivan"usually played"? far from the true. 3-of-a-kind, most freq hit, in the community cards and player having two low cards are very common. This makes a total difference in allowing to fold and get paid or not.
No, the player wins trips the vast majority of the time when they occur for him. Here's some math for you:
Player gets trips 4.27% of the time and wins it better than three of four times. He wins trips 3.48% of the time and loses trips 0.76% of the time, or loses trips once out of every 127 hands played.
On straights or better, players win these hands 8.74% of the time, and get a bad beat on a straight or better 0.84% of the time.
As the designer of Galaxy Gaming's Heads Up Hold 'em game, - which has a free bad beat for the player (payable on a straight or better through the then-winning odds bet/blind bet), I looked into this math.
And we have - as a game rule - that a folding player may tuck his cards under the trips bet, to be paid on folded trips. Math was calculated for the game on a "Trips always in action" basis, allowing folding to still win the trips bet.
Fold = lose Ante, Odds, and the Trips bet for -3 units.
Play = lose Ante, Odds, Play, (-3) and win 3:1 and break even.
Still stinks when a house has that must-play rule for the trips bet.
Quote: IbeatyouracesThis is assuming players bet equal amounts on trips/ante/play. Typical players, in my experience, bet more on trips than the main game. Either way, it sucks in those rare instances to bet a loser to get paid on trips. And why for the life of me I can't figure out why people subject themselves to this rule at Motorcity when just a two minute drive at MGM not only do they not force a play bet, they have the 9/7/4 (0.9% HE) pay table. MC has the 8/6/5 (1.9% HE) pay table.
I agree, I'm totally against this rule - both UTH and HUH allow for "tucked trips" on folded hands, and it's just casino greed or ignorance to play with the game rules.
I think this rule adds 2.3% or so to the bet, so a 1.7% trips bet becomes a 4% bet, (still typical of side bets), but still greed. I think some houses are afraid of the low-edge bets, and pump them a bit this way, thinking this practice isn't that noticeable. Well, it is, and the house shouldn't want it, because it puts a bad taste into the players' mouths on the game.
When I get back to work Tuesday, I'll discuss this on our installs. Not right.
I thought you're a VIP (Very Insignificant Pxxx) in your company - in your own words before. Good luck.Quote: PaigowdanWhen I get back to work Tuesday, I'll discuss this on our installs. Not right.
Quote: UCivanI thought you're a VIP (Very Insignificant Pxxx) in your company - in your own words before. Good luck.
Thanks, but I won't need it.
While I am not a prominent Sales executive or Marketing boss, I am the one who oversees the games and their procedures, and can check to make sure game procedures are followed. Some casinos take shortcuts or make changes that aren't approved; if it causes player pushback against gaming products - as seen here - it should be addressed.
Quote: GrandpaVegasI have been playing in Vegas for the last month and a half. It appears to me that they are supposed to pay the trips on a fold, but most dealers just pick up the cards and the bets on a fold and never check. Sharp dealers do recognize trips on board and usually pay the trips. Simplest way to find out is fold face up and demand your trips pay. Of course you can cash in even more by not playing trips at all.
Standard policy where I've been has been to tuck your cards under the trips bet, or, if you have trouble doing that without making a mess, to tell then that you're folding but have trips.
Quote: SwinglineDo you think that operating on sovereign land might give the Casino's an option to modify the procedures without Shuffle Master's consent?
I've seen some sovereign card rooms change rules of play by virtue of a dart board. We'd occasionally get calls from someone saying "xyz card rooms has this game rule on your game where...." and it would blow our minds. "They did WHAT??!!" or the card room would complain of a table dumping because they changed the pay tables, etc. It happens. Relatively rare, though. I believe they still have to follow the manufacturer's recommended procedures. People like to rig things and take ownership.
When the first automated machine for this was in the UK I raised this issue and the rule (in the UK) is trips should be paid. Technically you could work it out from the expected return. Strangely the time I found it (as it happened in a real game where I was playing) the player had folded and was complaining - the dealer explained the current rules (a software issue or setting) and allowed the player to call instead. The player got lucky and even won his trips (something like 52 beating 43).Quote: Swingline...Shuffle Master's UTH game? ...can...trips [lose] if the player decides to fold the hand?...
I stumbled into SHFL at a games evening and they agreed to fix the software, so hopefully it's correct now.
Sadly I suspect casinos in less regulated environments can do what they like provided there's some rulebook tucked away somewhere which, if pressed, the casino could find.
