Comps

Can anyone tell me how Vegas casinos calculate comps? Craps, Pai gow, Baccarat and Blackjack? Is there a basic calculation that all casinos use across the board or does it vary from casino to casino? In other words, if I were averaging 600.00 a bet for an hour at a craps table what would my comp credit be? Can you please show me the math?

First calculate the expected value of your betting. The comps should be a partial rebate for your losses.

Some have said about a third of your theoretical losses is standard, but such seems to be more generous than just a few might do.

On the other hand, I was comped for a while above the theoretical value of my action last year ... it probably would have continued but I couldn't keep going to that casino [and we aren't talking big bucks]. I'm not sure how that happened, but being an out-of-state client probably was a factor.

see

https://easy.vegas/gambling/comps

Quote: mds

Can anyone tell me how Vegas casinos calculate comps? Craps, Pai gow, Baccarat and Blackjack? Is there a basic calculation that all casinos use across the board or does it vary from casino to casino? In other words, if I were averaging 600.00 a bet for an hour at a craps table what would my comp credit be? Can you please show me the math?

It starts with theoretical loss or "theo." Theo has a pretty hard-and-fast equation:
Average bet size X house edge X decisions per hour X time at the table
The problem is what they do with your theo. There is a percentage that the casino will apply that will drive your comps. In the olden days I've heard it was often 30%. Nowadays at the big chains, it's closer to 3%. And there are still "discretionary" comps out there depending on the location. At the Total Rewards chains, you will get a lot of free rooms but not much else.

At the end of the day, you need to ask about a specific players card program to get any hard details from experience. But the math above is where it starts. In general, the more you bet at a higher edge game and the longer you stay, the more comps you will get. In general.

Quote: mds

if I were averaging 600.00 a bet for an hour at a craps table what would my comp credit be? Can you please show me the math?

I can't show you the math and I don't know what the formula is, but back in the days BEFORE Total Rewards and whatever formulas they brought to the craps pit, if you had an average bet of $135 for four hours a day you had RFB -- room, food and beverages.

Now this goes back about ten years ago.

But my guess is if you have on average $600 on the table for four hours a day you would be at the top tier at most casinos.

Many casinos now INCLUDE odds in their comp formulas. Caesars made this change about a year or two ago.

Many casinos would not include odds because there was no theoretical advantage but the reality is Caesars figures they were more likely to win that odds money anyway so why not "comp it."

Now, with Total Rewards you are able to put your card into a slot machine even after a session at a table game and see exactly how many "tier points" and "comp dollars" you earned. So to take the guesswork out of this, if you happen to play at a Total Rewards casino, check your balance BEFORE you go to the table, and then check again when you finish, and see for yourself. But make sure (and this is very important) that you are "closed out" from the table game for your comps/play. If you are not "closed out" your "points" will not be entered into the system.

I can tell you that it is possible to play for three, four or five hours and a floorman forgets to "close you" and there is ZERO added to your tier score and comps. It has happened many times to many players.

Also check with the floor person to see how you were rated. About six months ago I went to Caesars and started with small bets at craps: a $10 passline and maybe place the 6 and 8 for $12 each. I did this for the first ten minutes of play. After that I went to my usual of $130/135 across and $25 pass with full odds for about four hours. When I checked with my host the next day I discovered I was rated at $35 for four hours of play. Unfortunately, I couldn't do anything about it.

Quote: AlanMendelson

Many casinos now INCLUDE odds in their comp formulas. Caesars made this change about a year or two ago.

Many casinos would not include odds because there was no theoretical advantage but the reality is Caesars figures they were more likely to win that odds money anyway so why not "comp it."

Are you sure about that? I don't have any hard evidence to refute this claim, but in making small talk with pit crews over the years I thought odds were still excluded from your average bet calculation at TR properties (and pretty much everywhere else).

A good strategy is to contact marketing departments of the various properties in which you have interest. (If possible, speak with an actual casino host.)
For best results, give them full details as to not only the amount of action, but also the type of action.

As has been mentioned, you need the assurance that both you and the casino in question are in agreement concerning how you're rated.
It does you no good to believe you're being rated for $600 bets if $400 of that is odds, and you're at a casino that doesn't include odds bets in the rating.
Investigate this beforehand; sometimes the host may have to play phone tag with you while they communicate with the table games department to determine exactly how you will be rated.
Try your best to actually meet your host upon your arrival. If that's not possible, perhaps a phone call or email.
This lets the host know you are there, and s/he can inform the TG department of your arrival, and the host can also verify that you will be rated in the manner previously agreed.

When available, rooms are the easiest comp.
Rooms cost the casino the least amount of money, and it's an assurance that you are on their property. Many is the time I've obtained a $300+/night suite after having difficulty getting a $50 steak dinner!

Quote: mds

Can anyone tell me how Vegas casinos calculate comps? Craps, Pai gow, Baccarat and Blackjack? Is there a basic calculation that all casinos use across the board or does it vary from casino to casino? In other words, if I were averaging 600.00 a bet for an hour at a craps table what would my comp credit be? Can you please show me the math?

As has been explained above, your theoretical loss it is your avg bet per roll x expected loss x # decisions per hour x hours played. That is what they are going to use to decide what kind of comps to give you.

You can figure 50 to 80 decisions per hour.

I believe most casinos like to see at least 4 hours a day on a game for you to get your maximum comps values. Quick sessions don't get you as much

Let's assume you are making a $600 Place 6 bet (1.52% HE).

Theo loss = 600 x .0152 x 60 decisions x 1 hour = $547

What the casino gives you for that action could be anywhere from $15 to $150, depending on what % they award. (AT $600 a bet, I would think you will be on the higher side. While an hour is not very long, playing purple chips gets attention.)

In addition, for craps I've been told (at a CET property, of course) that only the first 3-5 rolls after a point has been established are used for determining your average bet. It is to keep you from being rated for all your presses... Not sure why you aren't rated for them since they are still exposed to the same HE !

Quote: wudged

In additional, for craps I've been told (at a CET property, of course) that only the first 3-5 rolls after a point has been established are used for determining your average bet. It is to keep you from being rated for all your presses... Not sure why you aren't rated for them since they are still exposed to the same HE !

Whoever told you that is being a lazy ass, or the pit doing the rating is a waste. When I have a bet on the table it is ALL my money out there. Whether it came from my rack, or is the result of a press, is vastly irrelevant.

I agree, just throwing that out there as something to be cautious about, especially if your average bet is $600 plus any additional pressing.

Here is your answer. (For Vegas at least) Odds are counted in your avg bet at Caesars and Cosmo only! I have been to every large casino in Vegas and have firsthand knowledge of this. I am going to the Wynn this weekend and the way around it for me is the do/don't. 100-100, 300-300, and 400-300 whatever you want. Avg will be 200, 600 or 700 respectively.

Quote: mds

Here is your answer. (For Vegas at least) Odds are counted in your avg bet at Caesars and Cosmo only! I have been to every large casino in Vegas and have firsthand knowledge of this. I am going to the Wynn this weekend and the way around it for me is the do/don't. 100-100, 300-300, and 400-300 whatever you want. Avg will be 200, 600 or 700 respectively.

When you say Caesars do you mean specifically the Caesars Palace casino, or do you mean all of the casinos in the Caesars chain?

Also, be careful playing the doey-don't. Some pit bosses will straight up not rate you at all because they think you're trying to be "cute." I don't have first-hand experience with this, but I can absolutely believe it happens given the typical pit crew personality.

Caesars Palace Vegas... Don't know about Harrah's Corp. It is there unwritten policy at the above casinos to count both sides in your avg. Yes I always ask before I play. It is unbelievable to me that some of the pit bosses don't know there own policy. They call "Upstairs" to find out what the policy is.

Quote: AcesAndEights

Are you sure about that?

Yes. Ask at Caesars. Your average bet now includes your odds.

$100 average bet for four hours a day will get you RFB at Sam's Town. This is according to a card they provide to players. They are still "old-school."

Quote: AlanMendelson

Yes. Ask at Caesars. Your average bet now includes your odds.

That is awesome, and bizarre. If it's *just* at Caesars but not at any other TR houses, then there is a serious disadvantage to playing craps at any other TR house than Caesar's.

I'm definitely going to test this on my next Vegas trip. I do rather enjoy the craps pit at CP. As I'm sure Alan does also, considering he completed his nuptials there :)

Quote: AcesAndEights

That is awesome, and bizarre. If it's *just* at Caesars but not at any other TR houses.

CZR has had it for a couple of years, according to my experiences and exchanges with floor supervisors at Bally's, Paris and Planet Hollywood. They've been reported here. The practice is quite favorable for laying don't odds. Harrah's is next up.

Yeah, but Caesar's table (all Total Rewards properties) games comps are about the same as slots at about 2%-3% of theo. The wizard and many others have reported really crappy rewards accumulation playing table games. So be warned.

Quote: boymimbo

Yeah, but Caesar's table (all Total Rewards properties) games comps are about the same as slots at about 2%-3% of theo. The wizard and many others have reported really crappy rewards accumulation playing table games. So be warned.

Absolutely, I don't deny that. So maybe it was just this way all along and I was ignorant.

The hard comps are weak, but the free rooms at halfway-decent places like Paris are pretty nice for a mid-level player like me. It's still strange to me that this odds rating policy wouldn't be universal for one player's card system though.

Indeed the problem with playing table games at all TR properties including Caesars is that the "comp rate" is a big mystery. Even on a good day you run the risk that your play will not be accurately recorded ... or not recorded at all.

Be sure you "check out" with the floor person when you finish your session to confirm your bet level and "rating." But heaven knows what that will actually mean in terms of tier points or reward points. I am yet to meet anyone who will admit to anything.