Arenas proposals (two new ones)

Before the recession two arenas large and modern enough to house a professional basketball or hockey team were proposed. One was downtown, and the other was behind Bally's and Paris. I felt that the acquisition of Planet Hollywood would increase the odds of building a new arena.

Instead two new proposals have surfaced .

One is for an arena on 10 acres of land donated by Harrah's behind Imperial Palace. Presumably the plan to develop outdoor restaurants and possibly a giant ferris wheel by Harrah's will make more sense if they donate land for an arena. The land is supposedly worth $182 million, but that seems questionable as Carl Icahn bought 24.5 acres of strip property with a partially completed 700' building for $153 million.

The second is for an arena near Fountainbleau on the Wet'n Wild lot where the Crown Tower was supposed to be built.

"One of the state’s most powerful company’s, MGM Mirage, says no tax money should be used on arenas, period."

I agree 100%. I don't really care where they build it, as long as it is entirely privately financed. Want another reason the city of LV should not get involved? Neonopolis.

Quote: Wizard

Want another reason the city of LV should not get involved? Neonopolis.

I agree, if the city can piss away $100m on Neonopolis, then think how much it could lose on an arena.

This is apparently becoming more of an issue with reports that the Dallas Cowboys owner is interested in luring not just top flight boxing matches (he bid for Mayweather Jr vs Pacquiao before it fell through) but the National Rodeo Finals too.

Harrah's has not yet donated the land. There motives are to get someone else to pay for an arena for which they will receive 98% of the rewards. They own every casino adjacent to that land. No wonder MGM says no tax dollars!

It is very nice of Harrah's to consider donating property that backs their hotels for this project. Very community oriented group of folks there!

Okay...I am not a fan of publicly built stadiums. Most of the time, the projections provided to show how the money will be repaid are wildly wrong...ummm...just like the government's deficit projections! They rely on only the best possible outcome and don't reflect reality (I have had enough of the current reality...I am ready for the next upswing). The economic impact is also overstated many times. The taxpayers get left holding the bag. That may be the citizens of the area or the tourists in this case. Either way, they always seem to need more money.

Giving them tax incentives and letting them build it privately is the way to go. These things keep getting more and more expensive to build; a corporate attitude looking at the bottom line may well help them build it more efficiently. If they have all the money they want, they will spend more. If there are limits (their own capitalization), the tendency will be to make if cost effective.

If Harrah's wants it, let them build it.

Quote: RonC

Okay...I am not a fan of publicly built stadiums. Most of the time, the projections provided to show how the money will be repaid are wildly wrong...ummm...just like the government's deficit projections! They rely on only the best possible outcome and don't reflect reality

When you take money rather than earn it, you won't be any good at managing it.

Consider the common government idea of a budget cut. Let's say you run a business which has yearly expenditures of $1 million. If you wanted to reduce your expenses by 10% a year, you'd simply find a way to spend only $900,000 a year, right?

Not governments. The way they'd go about it, an agency with yearly expenditures of $1 million would first add, say, $200,000 to its budget, then cut $20,000, for a total expenditure of $1,180,000, but would claim a 10% cut.

Silver State Arena which is the proposal for the Wet & Wild sight between the Sahara and Fountainbleau. Presumably it will provide the motivation to finish the resort.


Texas-based International Development Management to build the Silver State Arena. Its seating would vary from 20,000 to 22,000 based on the event. County records show the 27 acres are owned by Sahara Las Vegas Corp., a subsidiary of Archon Corp. Paul Lowden is listed in state records as president of Sahara Las Vegas Corp. His wife, Sue Lowden, a Republican candidate for U.S. Senate, is listed as secretary and treasurer. A year ago, International Development Management tried to buy the 27 acres for an estimated $618 million, but the deal never materialized.

In documents filed with the county, the arena proposal would cost $751.7 million ($404 million construction costs; $347 million for the land), and would employ 4,100 construction workers. An analysis by the group said it would create 7,300 permanent jobs and generate $371 million in tax revenue over 30 years. Groundbreaking could be this summer The arena would be completed in the third quarter of 2012, the company says.

To finance the project, the company wants the county to resurrect the redevelopment agency that commissioners killed last year. The site is in a redevelopment zone, so if the agency is reinstated, developers could keep property tax revenue generated as a result of redevelopment. They would use that revenue to pay off bonds sold to finance construction. Clark County would underwrite some but not all of the bonds. Two-thirds of project’s debt would be paid off with tax revenue, with the remainder paid through taxes collected in the redevelopment area.

Echoing Woodbury, Lee Haney, executive vice president of Rogich Communications Group, which represents International Development Management, said Las Vegas “needs the arena to host bigger and better events.” It will certainly provide motivation for Sahara to re-open it's buffet.

Thomas Hornbuckle reiterated over and over "The question is: Should public funds be used to fund the sixth arena in Clark County?" Do you know what are the existing 5 arenas?
1) Thomas & Mack Center is an arena on the campus of the University of Nevada, the capacity is 19,522
-) Cox Pavilion is a 2,472-seat indoor arena built in 2001.
2) MGM Grand Garden Arena has a seating capacity of 17,157 people
3) Mandalay Bay a 12,000-seat arena
4) Orleans Arena 9,500 seat multi-purpose arena
5) Colosseum at Caesars Palace is a 4,296-seat entertainment venue. The arena opened to the public in 2003.

I've heard from various places (might have been here) that because of Vegas being... well... the gambling capitol of North America... that no sports team would ever move or start there. Is this completely false, or is there some merit to it? I'm coming at this with absolutely zero research and asking for opinions for the (older) people who have seen Vegas get passed up over the past 20 years or so for sports teams.

Also, why would you EVER build an arena for 20k people? I mean if it's going to be used for smaller events I completely understand, but no sports team would be attracted to an arena with only 20k seats.

Lastly after reading this forum for the first time, I think people are drastically underestimating the expected value of a sports team. I mean we can all agree that having a sports team is like advertising, you can -never- figure out its real value to a city and the locals... just estimate. Caveat: I am slightly biased, a huge sports fan from Seattle who works in sports (as a hobby/fun job) and just had the Sonics stolen by OKC which also made a friend get let go because his industry was connected to them.

I would love to see a professional sports team in Las Vegas. It would definately add something to do when I take a trip there. And I think there would be a large enough market (both locals and tourists) to support a franchise.

The fun part would be naming the team.

I propose the "Las Vegas Gamblers" as a team name!

Quote: gambler

The fun part would be naming the team.

I propose the "Las Vegas Gamblers" as a team name!

Hmmmm....



I would propose a name dedicated the people that built an oasis in the dessert:

The Las Vegas Losers!



(I suspect that name won't get far in the selection process.)

Quote: ahiromu

I've heard from various places (might have been here) that because of Vegas being... well... the gambling capitol of North America... that no sports team would ever move or start there. Is this completely false, or is there some merit to it? I'm coming at this with absolutely zero research and asking for opinions for the (older) people who have seen Vegas get passed up over the past 20 years or so for sports teams.

I have heard it, and it seems valid. It's not that a sports team wouldn't want to, it's that the leagues fear the appearance of the gambling connection. If it were up to them, there'd be no sports betting. Look at how much money they spent (NFL/NHL/MLB/NBA/NCAA) to join forces to fight the Delaware proposal. Thanks to their efforts, there are only NFL parlays available in Delaware, and they STILL said that they're taking the state out of contention for NCAA Regionals (it's more than just basketball) and other special events.

Quote:

Also, why would you EVER build an arena for 20k people? I mean if it's going to be used for smaller events I completely understand, but no sports team would be attracted to an arena with only 20k seats.

18-20k is about standard for an NHL/NBA arena.

Quote:

Lastly after reading this forum for the first time, I think people are drastically underestimating the expected value of a sports team. I mean we can all agree that having a sports team is like advertising, you can -never- figure out its real value to a city and the locals... just estimate. Caveat: I am slightly biased, a huge sports fan from Seattle who works in sports (as a hobby/fun job) and just had the Sonics stolen by OKC which also made a friend get let go because his industry was connected to them.

I think the leagues have a unspoken agreement that they won't press the gambling issue if LV doesn't make any serious plays for a pro team. By pro team I mean one of the big four.

Quote: cclub79

18-20k is about standard for an NHL/NBA arena.

The Phoenix suns play in the US Airways Arena that opened on June 1 1992 before the MGM Grand Garden Arena opened on December 31, 1993. The Phoenix arena has seating for 18,422 while the MGM arena has seating for 17,157.

The Sacramento Kings for the NBA play basketball in an ARCO arena with seating for 17,317.

The 2007 NBA All-Stars Game was played in Las Vegas at the Thomas & Mack center at UNLV.

A Vegas NBA team could play in one of the existing venues for a season while a new arena is being constructed. They are certainly adequate for one season. It seems smarter than spending that kind of money on an arena first, and then trying to attract the team second. If the Wet & Wild site is selected then it would give some time to complete the Fontainbleau.

Kansas City (same size as Vegas) built an arena that was completed 2.5 years ago and is still trying to solicit a team. But the arena cost $276 million (abut 1/3 of the proposed price for the Vegas Silver State arena) and is easier to support without an NBA or NHL team in the interim.

In bar conversations I have found several people who disagree with me. They think that no one will move a franchise to Las Vegas unless there is a completely built brand new arena that is suitable to their needs. They will not tolerate playing one season in an old venue (Thomas & Mack Stadium is 27 years old). Plus most schedules would require at least two seasons until the stadium is built.

Present inventory
Indoor Arenas
1) Thomas and Mack Center 19,354 Sports, Concerts, Family Shows
2) MGM Grand Garden Arena 15,520 Concerts, boxing
3) Mandalay Bay Events Center 12,200 Concerts, boxing
4) Orleans Arena 9,000 Minor League Hockey, Concerts, Family Shows
5) Aladdin Theatre 7,019 Concerts

Outdoor Stadiums/Fields
A) Sam Boyd Stadium 40,000 Football, Motorsports
B) Cashman Field 9,300 Minor League Baseball

The latest report is there is limited support among the Clark County council for the arena proposals. They are much more expensive than the Kansas City arena (KCA). The KCA has failed to attract a team, and there is concern that a Vegas arena will have the same result. The tax proposals are not well received.

A modest proposal
I think that the odd shaped Town of Winchester Nevada should be incorporated with the city of Las Vegas. I call it a modest proposal because the town only includes 4 operating casinos right now (Sahara, Hilton, Circus Circus and Riviera) all of which are hurting at this moment. However the future tax revenue (Fountainbleau, Echelon, future development) is high enough that it might help the City in the long run. Right now proposals (including one arena proposal) for the town of Winchester are viewed as competition to City of Las Vegas proposals. They could concentrate on the most viable area.

5 years later....here is the Arenas built from the ground up into a structure with a huge impressive dome.


http://www.workzonecam.com/clients/common/timelapse.php?info=JmM9bWdtcmVzb3J0czEmcD1tZ21yZXNvcnRzYXJlbmEmcz13b3Jrem9uZWNhbTI=

It will open for business in 266 days.

Did not know this was going on. That was a great time-lapse! The cranes moving around made it look like giraffes were wandering on the ground.

Looked it up; so it's being built by MGM behind NYNY and Monte Carlo, for 375 million. (thought there was quite a gap in this thread where that didn't get covered.) All private money? Will they be putting a new interchange on I15 behind it? Capacity?

Just curious. I'm finding it a little hard to believe there was a need for it, with all the large venues already in LV, but what do I know, not living there.

Great video. May we assume that Sunday is the day when there are no cars on the top floor of the parking garage?

Don't know the capacity of this new arena.
But, The Falcons are probably for sale.
Everyone in Atlanta is from somewhere else,
usually somewhere up North.
They all still root for the teams they grew up with,
even when they play the Falcons.
It's all very strange.....

You'd think the North would have run out of people to send down here by now,
But they keep on coming.

I don't get it.

Las Vegas has NO teams.

No NFL, NBA, or MLB.

Arena league football was an epic fail.

So what if the UFC will host events there?

As for a possible NHL expansion team: maybe.

But AEG is a heavyweight in the biz, they must see / know something I don't.

For now, call it "White Elephant."

I believe the first new tenant will be the NHL expansion team, the Black Knights, and will be playing at this arena for the 2016-2017 NHL season.

Vegas was better for an NBA team. But the VSL has shown that the NBA is popular enough and is well supported.

Quote: Paradigm

I believe the first new tenant will be the NHL expansion team, the Black Knights, and will be playing at this arena for the 2016-2017 NHL season.

Well, nothing has been announced or even supposedly decided yet, although most people think it is a done deal that Quebec and Las Vegas will get the two new franchises. Both have built new arenas ahead of the formal announcement next month and both have submitted all the required fees and are the only two cities that have moved to phase two of the process.

The expansion teams will not begin play until the 2017-2018 season (still 2 seasons a way).

Although one of the potential owners has proposed the "Black Knights" because he is a fan of Army sports teams, it should be noted that no name has yet been chosen. There are also other ownership partners, like the Maloof Brothers involved. An online vote by the local newspaper has 'Las Vegas Aces' far out front as far as favored name.

A couple other thoughts about pro hockey in Vegas.

Although by the numbers, Las Vegas appears to have the population to support a professional sports team, I wonder if it is really true?

Included in that population is a VERY large homeless and transient population (weekly/monthly type hotels) much larger than other areas that I have reside in. Also included is a very large working class population really struggling to live paycheck to paycheck. In my own personal opinion, the number of really middle-class and upper class folks with the kind of disposable income needed to attend professional sporting events is probably a lower percent than other similar population areas.

Second, large Latino population. Ice hockey just isn't the game of choice for many/most Latino's. We only need look just south of us to find another similar situation of a southwest US city with a large Latino population (Phoenix) and they are struggling to support their team, at the very bottom in attendance, with relocation rumors swirling.

But with the arena set right on the strip and presumably many teams staying right there, it could give new meaning to home 'ice' advantage as players from visiting teams may be 'up late' the night before a game. Being from Philadelphia, I am reminded of a number of hockey players in the past, like Rick Tocchet and Jeremy Roenick, who had gambling issues. Visiting teams might need extra security to keep their players "in". :)

my first take after seeing this thread title was

Quote: kewlj

The expansion teams will not begin play until the 2017-2018 season (still 2 seasons a way).

Although one of the potential owners has proposed the "Black Knights" because he is a fan of Army sports teams, it should be noted that no name has yet been chosen. There are also other ownership partners, like the Maloof Brothers involved. An online vote by the local newspaper has 'Las Vegas Aces' far out front as far as favored name.

Kewlj, thanks for the correction on first season date, I guess I got too excited about the NHL in Vegas and didn't double check the date expansion is slated for play.

I will say that I think Foley (the majority potential owner) will end up with the Black Knights as the team name. While Las Vegas Aces may be a local favorite, Aces feels more like a minor league team name (e.g. the Alaska Aces of the ECHL). West Pointers are very loyal to their military traditions and if Foley has a chance to express that Army pride in the name of his majority owned NHL team, he is going to do it........just my humble opinion.

As far as local support for an NHL team, I was doubtful that they would get to their 10,000 season ticket deposit goal, even though I think it only took a few hundred dollars to make a deposit on a couple of seats. I believe they took no deposits from casinos/corporate sponsors and still reported 13,500 season ticket deposits. That is pretty impressive and I think indicative of the desire for pro sports and the fact that there is no other sports team in town.

I think that is the big problem in Phoenix.......there are just way too many pro & high quality college sports opportunities competing for fans dollars. Let's face it, Las Vegas has UNLV and not much else that I am aware of when it comes to live sporting events.

The town will have to embrace youth hockey as part of the effort to support the team and I bet Foley has plans for building/upgrading local rinks and youth hockey programs including high school programs. You have to get kids playing the game and their parents taking them to practice, etc. in order for them to learn the game. Dallas is probably the best example of a town that did this well, with Anaheim coming in a close second.

I know it isn't a done deal, but the NHL really needs two more teams in the Western Conference and I bet that Bettman was disappointed that Seattle didn't get there arena situation figured out and apply for a franchise. Putting two new teams in Seattle and Vegas would have equalized the Conferences at 16 teams each. I think this will be a problem for Quebec's application.....if they get a team as well as Vegas (and I don't think you get one without the other), you are looking at 17/15 teams in each Conference. If that happens, I would look for Florida (or Carolina) to relocated to Seattle when their arena situation figured out. At some point soon the Conferences need to be equalized at 16 teams each.

Hockey?
What is Hockey?
This question from an old guy down in the Deep South, and question just a joke, almost.
Soccer?
What is soccer?
They call it football in most of the world apparently,
and they get very excited about 'their' football.

Don't remember hearing much or anything about either, not till college days anyway.

Way down here it was baseball, football ( American Football ), and basketball.
If you wanted to run track or something obscure like that, your parents just needed to be able to drive you halfway across the durn state for practice ;-).

We had a Pro Hockey team in ATL, anyone remember the ''Flames' ?
We got a farm club, the Thrashers, now, still usually half the seats are empty in a really nice facility.

There is/are big bucks to be made bringing a 'pro' team to your town. But it's gambling.
Maybe here is the most appropriate venue to discuss the issue(s), everything considered ;-)

Quote: TwoFeathersATL

We had a Pro Hockey team in ATL, anyone remember the ''Flames' ?
We got a farm club, the Thrashers, now, still usually half the seats are empty in a really nice facility.

Actually, the Thrashers were originally an NHL team as well, before the team was sold and moved to Winnipeg (and became the "new" Jets).

Quote: ThatDonGuy

Actually, the Thrashers were originally an NHL team as well, before the team was sold and moved to Winnipeg (and became the "new" Jets).

I didn't know the history, thx.
I buy tix, take my kids to watch, couple times a season anyway.
Always fun.