Craps - When the dice leave the table.
May 4th, 2011 at 8:56:17 PM
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Alright so we all know that you're never supposed to give a tip directly to an employee. You're supposed to put/throw it on the table then tell them it's theirs or some variation. My question comes to when a die leaves the table from an overzealous shooter and you are the one who sees it (we've all done it) - Are you supposed to give it directly back to them or throw it on the table? I have always and will continue to always throw it back on the table unless I get berated here.
I ask because the last few times I've done this the crew got mad at me and wanted me to give it back to them, touching the closest dealer. It just seems like this is inconsistent and I'd rather have the crew a little mad at me than draw attention from upstairs (I don't do anything illegal, just isn't something I want).
I ask because the last few times I've done this the crew got mad at me and wanted me to give it back to them, touching the closest dealer. It just seems like this is inconsistent and I'd rather have the crew a little mad at me than draw attention from upstairs (I don't do anything illegal, just isn't something I want).
Its - Possessive; It's - "It is" / "It has"; There - Location; Their - Possessive; They're - "They are"
May 4th, 2011 at 9:03:06 PM
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Any craps table I have ever played wants the dice handed back to the closest dealer or alternately the pit bull has come over and taken it from me. I am not sure why maybe some of the dealers on the site can provide the reason. I had never thought about the fact that a die is the only thing you can actually give to the dealer directly.
Be careful when you follow the masses, the M is sometimes silent.
May 4th, 2011 at 9:03:36 PM
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It has often surprised me that the dealers are completely willing to accept a die transferred directly hand to hand from a player, when they wouldn't accept cash, chips, or (presumably) most anything else in that manner. Yes, handing the die to the dealer seems to be the accepted procedure.
May 4th, 2011 at 9:36:24 PM
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Probably something to do with dice switching and sleight of hand.
A falling knife has no handle.
May 4th, 2011 at 10:26:01 PM
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Never seen a dealer take the dice before. Even when offered, the dealer points to drop the dice on the table. The croupier rakes the dice to the table boss who inspects them. Don't want to even give the appearance of collusion.
May 4th, 2011 at 11:00:40 PM
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In my experience, I've always handed it to the dealer, who always has their hand extended to receive it
The boxman always inspects it carefully so I don't think they are too concerned a switch happening when it is handed in.
The boxman always inspects it carefully so I don't think they are too concerned a switch happening when it is handed in.
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo da Vinci
May 4th, 2011 at 11:24:16 PM
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I've never thought about it before, but I have picked up an overthrown die from the floor several times and handed them it the closest dealer. Never have I been told it was bad protocol.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
May 5th, 2011 at 3:38:06 AM
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I've always seen it handed directly to the dealer nearest or the pit person who shows they will be the one to take it. It should be handed with a very open hand and held with 2 fingers to avoid the appearance of a switch. From being in dealer class I can state the boxman must look at it and he will be mostly looking to see if the number on the die matches and for obvious tampering/switching. Think a home plate umpire looking for scuffs after one hits the gorund. It isn't forensic, just a check.
Chances of you knowing and having a crooked die with the same number and color are slim.
Chances of you knowing and having a crooked die with the same number and color are slim.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
May 5th, 2011 at 3:41:25 AM
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I too used to "hand in" the errant die via dropping it into the layout's extreme edge wherein the dealer or stick could easily get it. Often the crewman will reach for it. They "generally" would prefer a hand to hand exchange of the die since their greatest fear is a player even innocently introducing an unexamined die back into play. If the game has resumed with new dice, they do NOT want three dice on the layout. If the game has not resumed, they do not want that die being used until examined. The die has a "buried" serial number inside it. The box will examine the edges for knicks.
If I am the errant shooter ... Its always "your game, your dice" if they ask if I want the same dice.
Lately, I've come to the conclusion that its best for me to simply indicate where the die has fallen and allow someone else to pick it up.
The crew may think I'm weird but I just no longer want to worry about dice switching accusations.
If I am the errant shooter ... Its always "your game, your dice" if they ask if I want the same dice.
Lately, I've come to the conclusion that its best for me to simply indicate where the die has fallen and allow someone else to pick it up.
The crew may think I'm weird but I just no longer want to worry about dice switching accusations.
May 5th, 2011 at 5:06:38 AM
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And the dealers tend to appear somewhat angry if the die from the floor is tossed back in rather than handed to them.
I have a theory:
If the shooter has swapped the dice, and the person picking it up is a teammate, then if the die is tossed from the floor to the table, it gives the shooter the chance to also toss in a die. This will cause confusion about who threw in which die as well as which die is which.
I admit, it's not a great theory, but it's all I got.
This is somewhat supported by the fact that if the die lands on the rail, where they have not lost track of it, then the preference is to just toss it back to the table.
For the record, I too find this inconsistancy rather odd.
I have a theory:
If the shooter has swapped the dice, and the person picking it up is a teammate, then if the die is tossed from the floor to the table, it gives the shooter the chance to also toss in a die. This will cause confusion about who threw in which die as well as which die is which.
I admit, it's not a great theory, but it's all I got.
This is somewhat supported by the fact that if the die lands on the rail, where they have not lost track of it, then the preference is to just toss it back to the table.
For the record, I too find this inconsistancy rather odd.
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
May 5th, 2011 at 8:06:34 AM
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I wonder what the boxman and pitboss would say / do if, when a die flew off the table, some clueless casino patron who was walking by looked down, saw it lying on the floor, picked the die up and pocketed it and then blithely walked away?
I wonder what the superstitious crapsters who insist on "same dice!" would say / do?
Would it really be worth making a big deal about?
I wonder what the superstitious crapsters who insist on "same dice!" would say / do?
Would it really be worth making a big deal about?
"What, me worry?"
May 5th, 2011 at 8:26:41 AM
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The same thing that happens if the missing die simply can't be found.
After a few minutes of searching, they give up and use the remaining 4 dice. If it's still missing after a reasonable period of time, (An hour? End of shift? Next shooter?) they take the 4 out of use and bring in 5 new dice.
FYI: Dice are manufactured / sold in sets of five - all five have the same serial number. So even if that person kept the stray die, it wouldn't do much good.
After a few minutes of searching, they give up and use the remaining 4 dice. If it's still missing after a reasonable period of time, (An hour? End of shift? Next shooter?) they take the 4 out of use and bring in 5 new dice.
FYI: Dice are manufactured / sold in sets of five - all five have the same serial number. So even if that person kept the stray die, it wouldn't do much good.
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
May 5th, 2011 at 8:36:44 AM
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The retrieved die is handed to the nearest dealer, and it gets checked by the floorman or boxman. Dice have serial numbers on them, and they must match between dice.
If "same dice" was requested, then the same dice are used to continue the game. Only the shooter can call for the same dice to be used, no one else.
I haven't seen someone pocket a die that flew off the table, but if someone did that, he'd clearly be told you can't do that.
It's the same thing as pocketing a card from of a live card table, a big no-no.
You can directly hand dice back to a crap dealer on the game if it went off the table, no problem, if that is how the particular casino house operates.
Cash money must be put down on the layout to be picked up by the dealer. On a crap game, you should wait until the dice are "in the center" between rolls to put down your table buy-in money.
If "same dice" was requested, then the same dice are used to continue the game. Only the shooter can call for the same dice to be used, no one else.
I haven't seen someone pocket a die that flew off the table, but if someone did that, he'd clearly be told you can't do that.
It's the same thing as pocketing a card from of a live card table, a big no-no.
You can directly hand dice back to a crap dealer on the game if it went off the table, no problem, if that is how the particular casino house operates.
Cash money must be put down on the layout to be picked up by the dealer. On a crap game, you should wait until the dice are "in the center" between rolls to put down your table buy-in money.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
May 5th, 2011 at 9:24:42 AM
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You make it sound like they don't do that at your casino.Quote: PaigowdanYou can directly hand dice back to a crap dealer on the game if it went off the table, no problem, if that is how the particular casino house operates.
For the record, I'm sure everyone here understands the whole no-touching thing, put the cash on the table, etc.
But when a casino goes so far as to say that a patron can't even shake hands with a dealer, it strikes us as very odd that they will allow, and in most cases, prefer, that dice taken from the floor are directly handed to a dealer rather than dropped on the table.
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
May 5th, 2011 at 10:00:56 AM
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I think it expedites the inspection. If the die were tossed in, and it was not clear which was the one that went over the rail, ALL of them would have to be inspected. This would be a shameful loss of time that money is exposed to the house edge.
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo da Vinci
May 5th, 2011 at 12:45:20 PM
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Twice today the die left the table and my Wife handed it back to the person with their hand out. That person
then handed the die to the boss who then inspected it and placed it back into play, as the shooter asked for
the same die. Die off the table has happened the last two days here at NY NY with different Crap crews and
all personal have had their hand out for the die if a player or spectator picks it up.
then handed the die to the boss who then inspected it and placed it back into play, as the shooter asked for
the same die. Die off the table has happened the last two days here at NY NY with different Crap crews and
all personal have had their hand out for the die if a player or spectator picks it up.
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity.....Lazarus Long
May 5th, 2011 at 1:55:40 PM
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I'm picturing something that would take dealer collusion
the crooked die is switched for the die that hit the deck and this is thrown on the table away from the pit boss; the dealer picks up a good die, sort of hiding the scene from view, you know, as he does it, and hands that to the pit boss. The dealer makes sure he gets the switched die to the shooter.
this has probably happened a time or two eh?
the plot is foiled when the errant die is carefully shown to have never mixed with the other dice, so the policy is what it is.
Now the question becomes, does this show I have a criminal mind ???
the crooked die is switched for the die that hit the deck and this is thrown on the table away from the pit boss; the dealer picks up a good die, sort of hiding the scene from view, you know, as he does it, and hands that to the pit boss. The dealer makes sure he gets the switched die to the shooter.
this has probably happened a time or two eh?
the plot is foiled when the errant die is carefully shown to have never mixed with the other dice, so the policy is what it is.
Now the question becomes, does this show I have a criminal mind ???
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!” She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
May 5th, 2011 at 3:20:45 PM
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Well thanks guys, I'm glad I'm not the only one who finds this double-standard odd.
Its - Possessive; It's - "It is" / "It has"; There - Location; Their - Possessive; They're - "They are"
May 5th, 2011 at 4:16:11 PM
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Quote: AyecarumbaI think it expedites the inspection. If the die were tossed in, and it was not clear which was the one that went over the rail, ALL of them would have to be inspected. This would be a shameful loss of time that money is exposed to the house edge.
This.
Also, it's not like you are touching the dealer usually. They just put their palm out and they want you to drop it in. I don't think I've ever touched the dealer's hand when doing that.
May 5th, 2011 at 5:48:49 PM
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Quote: MrVI wonder what the boxman and pitboss would say / do if, when a die flew off the table, some clueless casino patron who was walking by looked down, saw it lying on the floor, picked the die up and pocketed it and then blithely walked away?
I wonder what the superstitious crapsters who insist on "same dice!" would say / do?
Would it really be worth making a big deal about?
As a guess I would say they would stop him or her. Also as a guess I'd think play cannot go on with only 4 dice. A missing die with the same number is a security risk.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
May 5th, 2011 at 5:56:18 PM
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Play would probably continue with an increased alertness though.
Some casinos retire dice and sell them in the gift shop. The Venetian retires dice and grinds them into fine powder. Different levels of paranoia. Most places do not want that die going onto the layout until inspected. No opportunity to have it grabbed up by the shooter and utilized prior to inspection.
Its not something that happens all the time and its a minor event but it gives everyone a bit of a pause and the crew can deal with it as their training dictates.
Some casinos retire dice and sell them in the gift shop. The Venetian retires dice and grinds them into fine powder. Different levels of paranoia. Most places do not want that die going onto the layout until inspected. No opportunity to have it grabbed up by the shooter and utilized prior to inspection.
Its not something that happens all the time and its a minor event but it gives everyone a bit of a pause and the crew can deal with it as their training dictates.
May 6th, 2011 at 3:05:45 PM
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I just got back from Belterra Casino in Florence, Indiana. Their normally $5 craps tables were bumped to $10 for the Kentucky Derby. My wife and I turned a $180 buy-in into $360, plus another $80 came our way from a generous chap at the other end who gave me $25 when I rolled him a $900 hard way win, another $25 for my wife when she did the same, plus he bet a $5 hardway for her, and got her $35. We thanked him profusely, and I also gave the crew an additional $15 tip when we colored up. /backstory
Anyhow, I asked the dealer and boxman why off-table dice are handed directly, and money/chips must touch the table. As others stated and speculated, it is because of the other dice that are still live on the table; The off-table die is "protected" in the hands of players and dealers until it is passed to the boxman for inspection and holding.
In fact, one of my rolls had a die in the railing, which another player picked up and dropped to the table. The dealer nearly leaped across the felt to grab it, after which it was passed to the boxman, examined, and put back into play. Usually I thought dropping a railed die was customary.
Anyhow, I asked the dealer and boxman why off-table dice are handed directly, and money/chips must touch the table. As others stated and speculated, it is because of the other dice that are still live on the table; The off-table die is "protected" in the hands of players and dealers until it is passed to the boxman for inspection and holding.
In fact, one of my rolls had a die in the railing, which another player picked up and dropped to the table. The dealer nearly leaped across the felt to grab it, after which it was passed to the boxman, examined, and put back into play. Usually I thought dropping a railed die was customary.
-Dween!
May 10th, 2011 at 10:15:25 AM
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I never touch the die on the floor.
What if it has been switched?
Why draw suspicion?
Watch for rail birds.
What if it has been switched?
Why draw suspicion?
Watch for rail birds.
Member In Good Standing!
May 10th, 2011 at 2:48:06 PM
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At the casino I frequent, the dice aren't serial numbered AT ALL.
While in play, there is absolutely NO numbers on them.
The only thing they do is put a SMALL nick on one of the dice faces (something EASILY doable by hand quickly)
Surprising, really.
EVERY other casino I've EVER been to, has their dice serial #'d...
While in play, there is absolutely NO numbers on them.
The only thing they do is put a SMALL nick on one of the dice faces (something EASILY doable by hand quickly)
Surprising, really.
EVERY other casino I've EVER been to, has their dice serial #'d...
Gambling calls to me...like this ~> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Nap37mNSmQ
May 10th, 2011 at 2:54:08 PM
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Quote: TIMSPEEDWhile in play, there is absolutely NO numbers on them.
So how do you know if you rolled your point or sevened out?
:-)
May 10th, 2011 at 3:45:35 PM
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I would not play at a dice game where there were obvious nicks on the edge of a die or the slightest nick on the face of the die. Now that slight nick on the face of the die won't alter the center of gravity by much or the tumbling characteristics, but its the principle of the thing. Well manufactured dice cost money. If the casino is skimping on something that important don't play there.
May 10th, 2011 at 4:31:34 PM
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Quote: FleaStiffI would not play at a dice game where there were obvious nicks on the edge of a die or the slightest nick on the face of the die. Now that slight nick on the face of the die won't alter the center of gravity by much or the tumbling characteristics, but its the principle of the thing. Well manufactured dice cost money. If the casino is skimping on something that important don't play there.
Yes, sounds like a place where the boxman says, "sir, make sure you hit the curb, er, back wall."
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
May 10th, 2011 at 5:01:21 PM
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Where is this casino? Without numbers, how would they know if the dice were switched? Anyone can put a nick in dice.Quote: TIMSPEEDAt the casino I frequent, the dice aren't serial numbered AT ALL.
While in play, there is absolutely NO numbers on them.
The only thing they do is put a SMALL nick on one of the dice faces (something EASILY doable by hand quickly)
Surprising, really.
EVERY other casino I've EVER been to, has their dice serial #'d...
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
May 10th, 2011 at 5:08:29 PM
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Quote: DJTeddyBearWhere is this casino? Without numbers, how would they know if the dice were switched? Anyone can put a nick in dice.
Even the "casino" could be loading the dice.
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo da Vinci
May 10th, 2011 at 5:16:36 PM
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Most reputable manufacturers would imbed something... I don't think a precision dice maker would sell dice that way. Anybody know for sure? I figure if the casino is that cheap, why play there and if the casino is both cheap and crooked, ... scram.
May 10th, 2011 at 5:24:02 PM
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Quote: FleaStiffMost reputable manufacturers would imbed something... I don't think a precision dice maker would sell dice that way. Anybody know for sure? I figure if the casino is that cheap, why play there and if the casino is both cheap and crooked, ... scram.
Kidding aside, there are 'blacklight" visible marks that do not remove material from the cube. The box would have a small lamp near the bank to check. It could also be used to inspect currency before they are dropped.
nicking the dice would be a huge red flag for me. Anything the house does to take them out of square can't help you.
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo da Vinci
May 11th, 2011 at 3:45:02 AM
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I would have to assume these are cheap dice meant for monopoly games or something? Real casino dice would automatically come with serial numbers? Perhaps these assumptions are wrong.
If so, though, you could research and find out what kind of bias they are supposed to have, if the dots are carved out of the face. The 6 side has to be the lightest.
If so, though, you could research and find out what kind of bias they are supposed to have, if the dots are carved out of the face. The 6 side has to be the lightest.
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!” She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
May 11th, 2011 at 4:51:36 AM
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You can get real, casino quality dice, here: http://www.kardwell.com/casino-quality-dice.htmQuote: odiousgambitI would have to assume these are cheap dice meant for monopoly games or something? Real casino dice would automatically come with serial numbers? Perhaps these assumptions are wrong.
You'll note that on that page, logo/name and serial numbers are an option. Since the sample with a name uses the name of a real casino, I would think that casino is an actual customer. That should tell you that this company is legit with casino quality, and will sell them with or without numbers.
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
May 11th, 2011 at 5:00:35 AM
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Apparently it is possible to get precision dice without serial numbers but I don't see why any casino would do that. Save a few pennies on the dice and then spend hours having dealers explain things? I don' t know.Quote: odiousgambitReal casino dice would automatically come with serial numbers?
Remember too that when Persi Diaconis had a precision dice company intentionally make slightly out-of-true dice for him, he found there was no real advantage to them.
May 11th, 2011 at 5:44:52 AM
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Actually, according to the website, Kardwell doesn't charge extra for the numbers. Names/Logos need custom price quotes, but that's probably more because of the expense to set it up rather than to actually imprint it.Quote: FleaStiffApparently it is possible to get precision dice without serial numbers but I don't see why any casino would do that. Save a few pennies on the dice ?
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
May 11th, 2011 at 7:09:07 AM
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Quote: DJTeddyBearKardwell doesn't charge extra for the numbers.
looks like this casino is just not using casino quality dice to me. I would have to wonder about such an outfit.
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!” She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
May 11th, 2011 at 7:53:54 AM
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.....
May 11th, 2011 at 10:39:22 AM
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Yes. I would seriously doubt any sort of casino that did not. Its just too suspicious. Does their booze come in plain bottles?Quote: gofaster87All legit operations use serialized dice as far as I know.
May 11th, 2011 at 10:48:43 AM
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I have a set of these dice sitting here in front of me.
Funny thing is, I got them FROM THE FLOOR SUPERVISOR, and I examined them THOROUGHLY and COULD NOT find any sort of mark..
Then I started taking notice, while playing, if one went off the table, what the procedures were...I noticed they were looking for something on the "6" face of the die...I started looking myself, and I noticed it, it's a VERY SMALL nick in the face (like you would make with a sewing needle if you pricked the die).
SO it is quite obvious, the dice I recieved were NEVER IN PLAY.
Like I said, this is the ONLY casino I've EVER played at that did NOT have serialized dice.
It often makes me wonder if they're loaded BY the casino, because this particular table is the CHOPPIEST table I've EVER seen (Literally, you can't ever win on EITHER the do or the don't.)
and apparently the dealers there are also incompetent, as they had some dice cheats (sliders) come through a while back and won $60k in one night, then the next day the same people were caught at the Cal-Neva in Reno for sliding and subsequently this particular casino FIRED all the dealers that were on that particular table that night...
Funny thing is, I got them FROM THE FLOOR SUPERVISOR, and I examined them THOROUGHLY and COULD NOT find any sort of mark..
Then I started taking notice, while playing, if one went off the table, what the procedures were...I noticed they were looking for something on the "6" face of the die...I started looking myself, and I noticed it, it's a VERY SMALL nick in the face (like you would make with a sewing needle if you pricked the die).
SO it is quite obvious, the dice I recieved were NEVER IN PLAY.
Like I said, this is the ONLY casino I've EVER played at that did NOT have serialized dice.
It often makes me wonder if they're loaded BY the casino, because this particular table is the CHOPPIEST table I've EVER seen (Literally, you can't ever win on EITHER the do or the don't.)
and apparently the dealers there are also incompetent, as they had some dice cheats (sliders) come through a while back and won $60k in one night, then the next day the same people were caught at the Cal-Neva in Reno for sliding and subsequently this particular casino FIRED all the dealers that were on that particular table that night...
Gambling calls to me...like this ~> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Nap37mNSmQ
