Feeding Frenzy - roulette question

From reading another thread, it appears that Casinos have the following legal options in an attempt to change the probability outcome of the wheel -

Ball - size, speed and direction.

Wheel - speed and direction.

How many variables are involved if, not to complicate things too much, speed is defined as fast or slow only?
And, would these actions actually influence the probability of the game?

Quote: teeth1

And, would these actions actually influence the probability of the game?

No.
As long as the wheel is true, all ball and speed variables are effectively irrelevant.

I have seen different ball sizes used within the same casino, some even have more than one ball per table. The "spare" ball can sometimes be seen sitting in a little indentation at the top and centre of the wheel. The ball is sometimes swapped after a mis-spin when the dealer accidentally sends the current ball flying off the wheel.

Quote: teeth1

From reading another thread, it appears that Casinos have the following legal options in an attempt to change the probability outcome of the wheel -

No, the casino has no legal options to change the probability of the wheel. Using different wheels, balls, or other equipment should not alter the long-run probability of each roulette number appearing 1 in 38 (or 37) times. If that changes, so does the house edge, and at least one of the bets will become more favorable to the player than it currently is. That opens the door to players having an edge over the house, something the casino doesn't want.

What a casino may do, however, is use different equipment to speed up the game, thereby achieving more spins per hour and higher revenues. But that's due to volume, not any change of probabilities.

Quote: teeth1

How many variables are involved if, not to complicate things too much, speed is defined as fast or slow only?
And, would these actions actually influence the probability of the game?

In one of my casinos, they have 4 different sized balls. Somebody comes back from a break, grabs a different ball and speeds up or slows down the wheel. It effects the outcome not a whit. I have 3 roulette wheels. An expensive 24" wheel thats a smaller version of a casino wheel. An antique 16" wooden wheel, and a plastic 12" wheel. I use all 3 periodically and can't tell the difference in the outcomes. I do equally well on all 3, there seems to be no difference at all.

alternating the little white ball size is simply a game protection technique which also keeps the game moving if there are any errant spins. Most people don't even notice that a different sized ball is often switched in and out.

If these actions don't alter the overall result, except the frequency, then why bother using them?

Quote: teeth1

If these actions don't alter the overall result, except the frequency, then why bother using them?

Dealers have told me the size of their hands effects the size of the ball they're comfortable throwing. Big hands like bigger balls, smaller hands smaller balls. There isn't any more to it than that.

Quote: EvenBob

Dealers have told me the size of their hands effects the size of the ball they're comfortable throwing. Big hands like bigger balls, smaller hands smaller balls. There isn't any more to it than that.

That still leaves the different directions, perhaps it depends on whether the spinner is right or left handed.

It's easier to predict where the ball will land if the ball and wheel spin in the same direction. (Note: That doesn't mean it's easy, just easier.) Therefore, it's always opposite.

Our member Croupier is a Roulette Croupier in the UK. He has mentioned that there, they change directions every spin. Or maybe that's every couple spins. Whatever...

I think a smaller ball and faster spinning roulette table would only help increase randomness. A large ball in a slow spinning wheel is just asking to be taken advantage of.

Quote: ahiromu

I think a smaller ball and faster spinning roulette table would only help increase randomness. A large ball in a slow spinning wheel is just asking to be taken advantage of.

Not true at all. The ball isn't the size of a walnut, its just a little bigger than the small ball. As long as the wheel is moving and the ball makes it around the rim 3 times before it drops, its not any easier to predict than any other spin on these low profile wheels.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

He has mentioned that there, they change directions every spin. .

Most of the world changes direction on every spin. It makes no difference in the outcome, its just tradition.

Quote: EvenBob

Most of the world changes direction on every spin. It makes no difference in the outcome, its just tradition.

It is tradition to alter direction every spin. However it also seems to be essential for the electronic result displays to function correctly. I think the change of direction identifies to the ball sensor that a new spin is commencing [I'm not sure though]. The sensor must obviously have some way of knowing a spin has commenced, otherwise how does it correctly handle repeating numbers........

Note also that no casino ever allows the wheel at an open table to stop moving, even if no-one is playing. The croupier either gives it a push when it slows right down, or performs a new spin [without any bets placed].

Quote: algle

It is tradition to alter direction every spin. However it also seems to be essential for the electronic result displays to function correctly. I think the change of direction identifies to the ball sensor that a new spin is commencing [I'm not sure though]. The sensor must obviously have some way of knowing a spin has commenced, otherwise how does it correctly handle repeating numbers........

Note also that no casino ever allows the wheel at an open table to stop moving, even if no-one is playing. The croupier either gives it a push when it slows right down, or performs a new spin [without any bets placed].

It's been my experience that numbers are often missed by the sensor.

Quote: EvenBob

Most of the world changes direction on every spin. It makes no difference in the outcome, its just tradition.

Changing direction makes it a touch harder for the dealer to try and aim for a section of the wheel. I've had anectdotal evidence that it is possible to in crease the chances of hitting one of the thirds.

Quote: algle

However it also seems to be essential for the electronic result displays to function correctly. I think the change of direction identifies to the ball sensor that a new spin is commencing [I'm not sure though]. The sensor must obviously have some way of knowing a spin has commenced, otherwise how does it correctly handle repeating numbers.........

Possibly, the same way (ok, opposite way) it knows there is a result: When it no longer sees the ball in one of the pockets.

Then again, there may be additional sensors in the rail so it can tell the difference between a ball in the dealer's hand, and one that is spinning.


For what it's worth, the sensors do NOT read the numbers on the pockets. It CAN tell which direction the wheel is spinning, and CAN tell which color each pocket is. It can also count the number of pockets since the green pocket passed.

Note that on a double zero wheel, one green pocket has blacks on either side, the other has reds on either side. That's how it can tell the greens apart. So it's very simple for the sensors/computer to figure out which pocket the ball is in.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Then again, there may be additional sensors in the rail so it can tell the difference between a ball in the dealer's hand, and one that is spinning.

On our old wheels we used to have two external sensors to detect the numbers. This caused far more misreads than the new wheels we have which have three sensosr built in to the wheel rim.

I didnt ever ask how the sensors work so thanks DJ for teaching me something.

As to the OP, we have the same (larger) balls in all our wheels. As to spinning alternate directions, it just the way we are trained. The speed of the ball and wheel have no effect on the house edge. To illustrate this point, yesterday I span the number 1 four times in a row. Each time I had changed either the speed of the wheel, the spin, or both. Then I get taken off for my break and the dealer that comes on to the table spins 1. Five different spins, the same result.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Quote: algle

However it also seems to be essential for the electronic result displays to function correctly. I think the change of direction identifies to the ball sensor that a new spin is commencing [I'm not sure though]. The sensor must obviously have some way of knowing a spin has commenced, otherwise how does it correctly handle repeating numbers.........

Possibly, the same way (ok, opposite way) it knows there is a result: When it no longer sees the ball in one of the pockets.

Then again, there may be additional sensors in the rail so it can tell the difference between a ball in the dealer's hand, and one that is spinning.


For what it's worth, the sensors do NOT read the numbers on the pockets. It CAN tell which direction the wheel is spinning, and CAN tell which color each pocket is. It can also count the number of pockets since the green pocket passed.

Note that on a double zero wheel, one green pocket has blacks on either side, the other has reds on either side. That's how it can tell the greens apart. So it's very simple for the sensors/computer to figure out which pocket the ball is in.

I don't know about anyone else but I find it somewhat disconcerting that electronics are involved with the wheel.

Quote: teeth1

I don't know about anyone else but I find it somewhat disconcerting that electronics are involved with the wheel.

The electronic sensor that identifies the person playing a slot machine has no effect on the RNG chip. Its pretty much the same way with the sensors on the roulette wheel. Its a sensor, not a brake. It doesn't slow the wheel down nor speed the wheel up. It neither attracts nor repels the little white ball. You might just as well complain that electronics are involved with the casino's lighting system that allows you to see the roulette wheel or the dispensing system at the cocktail station.

Quote: FleaStiff

The electronic sensor that identifies the person playing a slot machine has no effect on the RNG chip. Its pretty much the same way with the sensors on the roulette wheel. Its a sensor, not a brake. It doesn't slow the wheel down nor speed the wheel up. It neither attracts nor repels the little white ball. You might just as well complain that electronics are involved with the casino's lighting system that allows you to see the roulette wheel or the dispensing system at the cocktail station.

There is a difference, the lights and the bar aren't attached to the wheel. I'd simply prefer the game in it's basic form without all the embellishments. If you want the new technology you can play RR.

Quote: teeth1

There is a difference, the lights and the bar aren't attached to the wheel. I'd simply prefer the game in it's basic form without all the embellishments. If you want the new technology you can play RR.

The sensor isn't attached to the wheel. It's inside the rail, or attached to the rail, above the groove.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

The sensor isn't attached to the wheel. It's inside the rail, or attached to the rail, above the groove.

Amazing technology, there's nothing they can't do these days.

Thanks to DJ and the link below it would appear, from the details listed, that direction and speed of the wheel are things that are closely monitored by casinos.
Also listed, under the events monitored, are the different electronic components, associated with the wheel, which are apparently integrated.
What a fun game.

http://www.tcsjohnhuxley.com/en/gaming-systems-and-security/roulette-wheel-analysis.html


Dashboard View

The Dashboard shows the status of the roulette estate by representing each table by a window. The table window displays information such as whether the table is open or closed, its minimum bet limit, its instantaneous or average turnover, number of players, games per hour, and any alerts that are outstanding for the table. By clicking a table icon the operator can open and close tables and change the bet limits and target game speed.

The Dashboard screen also contains the Alerts window. Alerts represent any exceptional event and can be configured.

Examples of alerts are:
• Device offline
• Wheel direction not changed between successive spins
• Wheel spun too fast or slow
• Games per hour too high or low
• Biased wheel
• Drop zone anomaly


Alerts remain active until they are acknowledged by an authorised user. An audit trail is maintained of which alerts were cleared by which operator and at what date and time.

Gaming Floor Live Components

Gaming Floor Live consists of several types of components networked together via the Nexus Table Hub Hardware. The Nexus is a table-mounted network-connected device that manages all of the Gaming Floor Live related hardware on a gaming table, including:
• Roulette wheel (TCSJOHNHUXLEY Saturn or Cammegh)
• Reader head (for standard Roulette Wheels)
• Chipper Champ2 chip sorting machine
• Active table limits display
• Dealer interface device
• Smart dolly

The Nexus is responsible for collecting gaming data and sending it to the Gaming Floor Live Server. It also receives and carries out instructions from the Server, such as opening and closing the table, and changing the minimum and/or maximum bet.

Quote: teeth1

• Drop zone anomaly.

Does this mean one incident wherein the ball failed to land in a slot?
Or is it an analysis of the recent numbers that shows bias toward a particular octet but does not yet rise to a determination of a biased wheel?

Quote: FleaStiff

Does this mean one incident wherein the ball failed to land in a slot?
Or is it an analysis of the recent numbers that shows bias toward a particular octet but does not yet rise to a determination of a biased wheel?

You would think that bias would cover segment abnormalities.
Perhaps it refers to some sort of irregularity with the bounce of the ball.
Who knows?

Quote: FleaStiff

Does this mean one incident wherein the ball failed to land in a slot?
Or is it an analysis of the recent numbers that shows bias toward a particular octet but does not yet rise to a determination of a biased wheel?

It could also mean something has been dropped in the wheel, or that the slot dividers are not properly set.