MrPapagiorgio
MrPapagiorgio
Joined: Nov 11, 2009
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December 3rd, 2009 at 4:37:07 AM permalink
This question was inspired by the other post "Probability of Robots Running Amuck", but this one is based a bit more in reality. You all know the various types of auto-shufflers that are out there, there are the ones like in the Bellagio which are on continuous auto-shuffle, and then there are those types like at the Wynn where they shuffle the deck and give the shuffled deck to the dealer to deal by hand with the cut card already in place and all. Unfortunately, I do not have reference links to share (I could have read this here, or somewhere else), but from what I remember reading, the shuffle machines have the ability to read when the deck has a high count (such as having a lot of Aces and 10's above the cut card) and may be able to reshuffle before the stack is given to the dealer when the above the cut card count is reduced. Is there any credence to this? Do you fear the auto-shufflers? I'm not a card counter, but I will not play on a continuous auto-shuffle machine because I worry that there will never be a good count in the deck (even though I do not count, the swings in natural count might benefit me a little, like when the deck gets low?), but I haven't made up my mind about the types of auto shuffling machines used at the Wynn, where the deck is preshuffled by machine and then played out by hand. Wiz, or anyone else, do you have any education on this topic? Can these card dealing and shuffling robots run amuck?
So I says to him, I said "Get your own monkey!"
Croupier
Croupier
Joined: Nov 15, 2009
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December 3rd, 2009 at 8:21:05 AM permalink
Unless the continuous shuffle machine is modified by an outside agent (contravening gaming regulations) there is no camera or other scanning device installed in any continuous shuffling machine.

The main reason shuffling machines exist are to make it harder for counters and to enable the casinos to get in more hands per hour.
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MrPapagiorgio
MrPapagiorgio
Joined: Nov 11, 2009
  • Threads: 58
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December 3rd, 2009 at 8:57:15 AM permalink
Quote: Croupier

Unless the continuous shuffle machine is modified by an outside agent (contravening gaming regulations) there is no camera or other scanning device installed in any continuous shuffling machine.

The main reason shuffling machines exist are to make it harder for counters and to enable the casinos to get in more hands per hour.



How sure are you? I have since located my source, and my concern is "preferential shuffling" as described here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Card_counting

"Several automated systems have been designed to aid detection of card counters. The MindPlay system scans card values for the entire deck after shuffling just prior to play. The ShuffleMaster Intelligent Shoe system scans card values individually as cards exit the shoe. Software called Bloodhound and Protec 21[25] allows voice input of card and bet values, which is used to determine the player edge. A more recent innovation is the use of RFID signatures embedded within the casino chips so that the table can automatically track bet amounts.[26]

Automated card-reading technology has known abuse potential in that it can be used to simplify the practice of preferential shuffling—having the dealer reshuffle the cards whenever the odds favor the players. To avoid liability concerns, some blackjack protection systems have been designed to refrain from sending data over the network until the shoe has ended.[27] Other vendors consider real-time notification to surveillance that a shoe is "hot" to be an important product feature.[28]"
So I says to him, I said "Get your own monkey!"
Croupier
Croupier
Joined: Nov 15, 2009
  • Threads: 58
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December 3rd, 2009 at 10:15:12 AM permalink
Pretty sure with regards to my area of speciality, which is the UK. Especially the casino I work in. Over here we are still pretty much in the Gaming Tech dark ages. Some casinos take advantage of the RFID chips, but this only works to count the chips in the float. Were not smart enough to have bet tracking here..

However doing some research into your source, i have noticed a few errors in the Wikipedia entry (thats the problem with people running free. misinformation and conspiracies)

The reference to the Shufflemaster Intelligent shoe fails to mention that it is designed to stop collusion and game manipulation for Baccarat as part of a modernisation of the game and is not desingned for blackjack. Whilst it may be used for blackjack in the future its not the original purpose.

Protec21 is a system designed to identify card counters and deter shuffle trackers, and is not intended to track the player edge.

The Mindplay system was given up by Bally's in 2007 due to tech problems. Even still it didnt track cards before play, it tracked them while they were on the table.

As for any manipulation of these features, that would be down to the casinos themselves. believe or not casinos dont need to be crooked to to make money. There might be crooked casinos out there, but i doubt this is solely down to the equipment and tech.
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