How risky is it to play alongside cheats?

Really artless ones too. Blatant device play, openly discussing the device and its outputs while calling plays for each other, as if they are so brilliant no one else in the building will know what those words mean. They leave me shaking my head and mumbling "Seriously?"

I have no moral objection to cheating in casinos but these guys are so crass and harebrained about it that I would prefer their device and their heat was far away from me. What's more is they're using a device to do less than I do without a device which suggests they are not the sharpest tools in the shed. Just a bunch of tools. I get the impression they are part of a larger syndicate.

My concern is that not if, but when they get arrested, I'm making most of the same plays they are and that they're calling out openly in the casino, so how could I prove I'm not part of their thing, that I'm not using or even being influenced by their illegal information?

Quote: AutomaticMonkey

Really artless ones too. Blatant device play, openly discussing the device and its outputs while calling plays for each other, as if they are so brilliant no one else in the building will know what those words mean. They leave me shaking my head and mumbling "Seriously?"

I have no moral objection to cheating in casinos but these guys are so crass and harebrained about it that I would prefer their device and their heat was far away from me. What's more is they're using a device to do less than I do without a device which suggests they are not the sharpest tools in the shed. Just a bunch of tools. I get the impression they are part of a larger syndicate.

My concern is that not if, but when they get arrested, I'm making most of the same plays they are and that they're calling out openly in the casino, so how could I prove I'm not part of their thing, that I'm not using or even being influenced by their illegal information?
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I would personally move away from these cheats so WHEN they get caught, I don't get into trouble WITH them when I wasn't cheating. 💡

You weigh down the suspected cheater and throw them in a pond. If they drowned, they were almost certainly innocent. If they float, or turn into a newt, you have the answer.

Table game? (Not multiplayer poker, right?)

My inclination would be to stay at the table and see if there is any advantage I can gain from watching their decisions, etc. I would not be concerned with getting swept up in a game security action if these are complete strangers to me and I am completely innocent of complicity in what they are doing. I strongly believe that I have a right to use all information at the table as long as I am not doing something nefarious (like mirrors) to gain the information.

If I cannot gain any useful information or by watching them, then I would probably leave the table - just to avoid the inevitable drama.

I have been on table games with cheaters a 3 times that I can remember. I always immediately got off the table. I don’t want to be associated with them even though I’m innocent it’s happened before where innocent civilians have been put in the Griffin book or OSN as possible associates.

Quote: gordonm888

Table game? (Not multiplayer poker, right?)

My inclination would be to stay at the table and see if there is any advantage I can gain from watching their decisions, etc. I would not be concerned with getting swept up in a game security action if these are complete strangers to me and I am completely innocent of complicity in what they are doing. I strongly believe that I have a right to use all information at the table as long as I am not doing something nefarious (like mirrors) to gain the information.

If I cannot gain any useful information or by watching them, then I would probably leave the table - just to avoid the inevitable drama.
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Yeah this is a table game. If they were cheating me in a poker game things would be handled somewhat differently...

These guys are rank, I'm not going to be getting anything worthwhile from them. I already did the comparison between an advanced count and combinatorial analysis and the CA does not give you nearly enough gain to be worth it, given all the risk and encumbrance of device play. The fact that they're doing it anyway tells me they did not put in the same work I did. So I think what I'll do is still play it, just when they're not there at least sometimes so I can prove I am doing all the same things in the same way with or without their presence. As well as create some physical distance from them and not talk to them at all.

Quote: AutomaticMonkey

Really artless ones too. Blatant device play, openly discussing the device and its outputs while calling plays for each other, as if they are so brilliant no one else in the building will know what those words mean. They leave me shaking my head and mumbling "Seriously?"

I have no moral objection to cheating in casinos but these guys are so crass and harebrained about it that I would prefer their device and their heat was far away from me. What's more is they're using a device to do less than I do without a device which suggests they are not the sharpest tools in the shed. Just a bunch of tools. I get the impression they are part of a larger syndicate.

My concern is that not if, but when they get arrested, I'm making most of the same plays they are and that they're calling out openly in the casino, so how could I prove I'm not part of their thing, that I'm not using or even being influenced by their illegal information?
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Why not just anonymously turn them in? Reduce your competition.

Playing at the table with them the first time was an accident. Future times sitting with them is your choice. Is there something you can learn from them thatjustifies you choosing to play with them?

Quote: DRich

Why not just anonymously turn them in? Reduce your competition.
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Who do they get reported to?
Aren't they face-eating tigers?

Quote: AutomaticMonkey

Really artless ones too. Blatant device play, openly discussing the device and its outputs while calling plays for each other, as if they are so brilliant no one else in the building will know what those words mean. They leave me shaking my head and mumbling "Seriously?"

I have no moral objection to cheating in casinos but these guys are so crass and harebrained about it that I would prefer their device and their heat was far away from me. What's more is they're using a device to do less than I do without a device which suggests they are not the sharpest tools in the shed. Just a bunch of tools. I get the impression they are part of a larger syndicate.

My concern is that not if, but when they get arrested, I'm making most of the same plays they are and that they're calling out openly in the casino, so how could I prove I'm not part of their thing, that I'm not using or even being influenced by their illegal information?
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I guess it comes down to risk versus reward.

You might be able to prove you were not cheating, but at what cost? Would you have to get an attorney even if you were found innocent that doesn't mean that you won't be added to some "book" or trespass permanently.

Quote: AxelWolf

I guess it comes down to risk versus reward.

You might be able to prove you were not cheating, but at what cost? Would you have to get an attorney even if you were found innocent that doesn't mean that you won't be added to some "book" or trespass permanently.
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That's right. Once you are getting an attorney for criminal defense, you are deep into -EV. Getting an attorney because they hit me with a baton and dragged me into a backroom with witnesses is something different. Somebody has to pay for all those billboards.

No this game has value to me but it is not worth any risk at all of arrest, or even of being trespassed, or even a risk of conflict with this cheat team (which would likely also result in trespass and/or arrest). Kind of clarifies it for me- if they're in the house, I leave and do something else. Simple enough.