bklynkid11
bklynkid11
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November 3rd, 2022 at 10:51:42 PM permalink
Howdy, I was hoping someone could help me understand RNGs or PRNGs better. I have tried various free and paid for simulators for Blackjack and I have to say that some of them have a very very fishy sort of feel to them. Strings of Push hands over and over. Strings of miracle pushes after I make a 21 or 20 and the dealer finds a way to get to 21 or 20 also. These are things I rarely see in live hand dealt games. This behavior is present and persistent in some simulators but not all. Then there are sims where you can't lose a hand, which suggests the free sim is being used as an enticement to show how easy it is to beat the real money game for newbies.. Be that as it may... My question is what RNG or PRNG is used in the "play for FUN" versions of the blackjack games that the Wizard of Odds website offers, and are they considered to be "robust". Thanks to the Wizard and the whole community for sharing their experiences and insights into this fascinating world. Thanks bklyn
OnceDear
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bklynkid11
November 4th, 2022 at 2:33:12 AM permalink
Quote: bklynkid11

Howdy, I was hoping someone could help me understand RNGs or PRNGs better. I have tried various free and paid for simulators for Blackjack and I have to say that some of them have a very very fishy sort of feel to them. Strings of Push hands over and over. Strings of miracle pushes after I make a 21 or 20 and the dealer finds a way to get to 21 or 20 also. These are things I rarely see in live hand dealt games. This behavior is present and persistent in some simulators but not all. Then there are sims where you can't lose a hand, which suggests the free sim is being used as an enticement to show how easy it is to beat the real money game for newbies.. Be that as it may... My question is what RNG or PRNG is used in the "play for FUN" versions of the blackjack games that the Wizard of Odds website offers, and are they considered to be "robust". Thanks to the Wizard and the whole community for sharing their experiences and insights into this fascinating world. Thanks bklyn
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I don't think it's the RNG's that make such odd behavior happen, but more likely dodgy implementation of the game rules. Wizard's simulations are faithful. Some casinos do mess with results in practice mode to entice you to wager.
Psalm 25:16 Turn to me and be gracious to me, for I am lonely and afflicted. Proverbs 18:2 A fool finds no satisfaction in trying to understand, for he would rather express his own opinion.
AitchTheLetter
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AxelWolfbklynkid11
November 4th, 2022 at 4:33:43 AM permalink
Random data sets have clusters of data that appear to be patterns but actually are just noise. Remember that a single deck of cards can be shuffled in one of 52! different ways. Double deck increases the total possible ways to to 104!/2^52 (if my math is right, someone please feel free to check my math) and each extra deck past that increases it more.
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gordonm888
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November 4th, 2022 at 9:29:07 AM permalink
I agree with OD. The non-money "for fun" games are not regulated to be fair. As a way of getting you excited about playing for money, it seems obvious that the 'non-money' games might be skewed in favor of the player.

"For fun" poker games are widely understood to have occasional deals where several players have good starting hands and the river card brings an incredible outcome - such hands are designed to create excitement and fun and keep players coming back to the game.

If your non-money game is losing all the time, maybe they are trying to entice the casinos to give the game a trial (only kidding.)
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
heatmap
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November 4th, 2022 at 11:02:31 AM permalink
im the number one person on here who will fight to the death about "phony rngs"

but i will also be the first to admit i have programmed my own "fair" RNGs and the same stuff happens with them too its literally mostly in your head

the "phony rngs" are out there somewhere and there is no real way to tell if it is "fair"... its a matter of jurisdiction where these things exist at
AxelWolf
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November 4th, 2022 at 4:46:51 PM permalink
Quote: gordonm888

I agree with OD. The non-money "for fun" games are not regulated to be fair. As a way of getting you excited about playing for money, it seems obvious that the 'non-money' games might be skewed in favor of the player.

"For fun" poker games are widely understood to have occasional deals where several players have good starting hands and the river card brings an incredible outcome - such hands are designed to create excitement and fun and keep players coming back to the game.

If your non-money game is losing all the time, maybe they are trying to entice the casinos to give the game a trial (only kidding.)
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That didn't happen with just fun money, there was some lessor known real money poker sites doing this.

People have also accused some more well know sites to have action enticing software.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
IWannaBeAP
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November 5th, 2022 at 12:08:16 PM permalink
Honestly my stance is that there is no such thing as true RNG. The only exception being quantum particles.

There are many documents were PRNG were hacked. Many PRNG uses time. The most famous examples of my generation being pokemon roms getting PRNG hacked by perfect timing to maximize IV/EV/Nature and even create shiny pokemon.
DRich
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November 5th, 2022 at 1:42:24 PM permalink
Quote: IWannaBeAP

Honestly my stance is that there is no such thing as true RNG. The only exception being quantum particles.



I am not convinced that anything is random. I am a believer that until we know everything, we know nothing,
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
Dieter
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November 5th, 2022 at 7:32:14 PM permalink
Quote: IWannaBeAP

Honestly my stance is that there is no such thing as true RNG. The only exception being quantum particles.
link to original post



I'm gonna go with nuclear decay intervals and thermal noise being likely close seconds ("more than random enough"), although I have no idea if those are manifestations of quantum particle randomness.

They could certainly be used to adequately convolute a PRNG algorithm enough for any purpose I can conceive.
May the cards fall in your favor.
unJon
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November 5th, 2022 at 9:47:08 PM permalink
Quote: Dieter

Quote: IWannaBeAP

Honestly my stance is that there is no such thing as true RNG. The only exception being quantum particles.
link to original post



I'm gonna go with nuclear decay intervals and thermal noise being likely close seconds ("more than random enough"), although I have no idea if those are manifestations of quantum particle randomness.

They could certainly be used to adequately convolute a PRNG algorithm enough for any purpose I can conceive.
link to original post



Nuclear decay is the quintessential example of a quantum random process. Just ask Schrödingerís cat.
The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong; but that is the way to bet.
Dieter
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November 6th, 2022 at 1:04:39 AM permalink
Quote: unJon

Quote: Dieter

Quote: IWannaBeAP

Honestly my stance is that there is no such thing as true RNG. The only exception being quantum particles.
link to original post



I'm gonna go with nuclear decay intervals and thermal noise being likely close seconds ("more than random enough"), although I have no idea if those are manifestations of quantum particle randomness.

They could certainly be used to adequately convolute a PRNG algorithm enough for any purpose I can conceive.
link to original post



Nuclear decay is the quintessential example of a quantum random process. Just ask Schrödingerís cat.
link to original post



I was today years old when I learned that this is a quantum thing. Thanks!
May the cards fall in your favor.
DRich
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unJon
November 6th, 2022 at 5:14:42 AM permalink
Quote: unJon




Nuclear decay is the quintessential example of a quantum random process. Just ask Schrödingerís cat.



I think that cat bit me once. I learned not to shake the box before opening it.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
gordonm888
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Mental
November 6th, 2022 at 8:19:46 AM permalink
Look, it isn't the random number generator that is usually "insincere." It is the game software that defines how the random numbers are assigned to outcomes.

If you have a deck of 52 cards, and a random integer ranging from 1 to 52, then you normally assign 1 as one card, say the two of spades, and 2 as another card, say the two of hearts. To weight the outcomes correctly, you must assign each card the same range of probability, i.e., you must assign 52 identical ranges of random numbers to correspond to the each of the 52 cards. In that way, each card is equally probable to be dealt.

The way you pre-determine the outcome isn't to monkey with the random number generator. You simply change the software that assigns outcomes to ranges of random numbers. For example, if your software is altered to define that the outcome is an Ace of spades whenever the random number/integer is in the range of 1 to 26, then the ace of spades will be "dealt" 50% of the time.

Fixing games is accomplished by changing the game software that defines the correspondance of random numbers to outcomes, and not by changing the random number generator.
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
Mental
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November 6th, 2022 at 9:52:52 AM permalink
Quote: gordonm888

Look, it isn't the random number generator that is usually "insincere." It is the game software that defines how the random numbers are assigned to outcomes.

If you have a deck of 52 cards, and a random integer ranging from 1 to 52, then you normally assign 1 as one card, say the two of spades, and 2 as another card, say the two of hearts. To weight the outcomes correctly, you must assign each card the same range of probability, i.e., you must assign 52 identical ranges of random numbers to correspond to the each of the 52 cards. In that way, each card is equally probable to be dealt.

The way you pre-determine the outcome isn't to monkey with the random number generator. You simply change the software that assigns outcomes to ranges of random numbers. For example, if your software is altered to define that the outcome is an Ace of spades whenever the random number/integer is in the range of 1 to 26, then the ace of spades will be "dealt" 50% of the time.

Fixing games is accomplished by changing the game software that defines the correspondence of random numbers to outcomes, and not by changing the random number generator.
link to original post

Good post. Any second I spend thinking about the PRNG is a second I am not thinking about something important. For example, does IGT rig the outcome of the 5th reel on a Harley Davidson slot via deliberate software programming? I have seen many things wrong with slot and VP games. None of them have anything to do with the PRNG.

If you took a commercial BJ game and replaced a superb PRNG and a mediocre PRNG, there is not a person alive who could tell the difference by just watching the outcome of 1000 hands. That would require data collection and statistical analysis.
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AxelWolf
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November 6th, 2022 at 10:02:34 AM permalink
Quote: Mental

there is not a person alive who could tell the difference by just watching the outcome of 1000 hands.
link to original post

Are you calling EvenBob a liar?😅
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
JackSpade
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November 6th, 2022 at 10:22:52 AM permalink
I have noticed that on a popular "free" poker app, the first couple days of playing I get dealt a lot of aces and kings to make winning hands. Then I start getting dealt mostly junk that causes me to lose hand after hand and deplete my bankroll.

I am urged to replenish it by watching ads or buying chips. I instead delete the app out of frustration.

A few days or a few weeks later I'll reinstall the app and the same thing happens. I'll initially start building up winnings, then run into a long string of 'bad luck' that depletes the bankroll. I again uninstall the app out of frustration.

I've gone through this cycle multiple times now and am fairly certain the predictable pattern is no coincidence. The outcomes are rigged.
DogHand
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November 6th, 2022 at 1:15:46 PM permalink
Quote: JackSpade

I have noticed that on a popular "free" poker app, the first couple days of playing I get dealt a lot of aces and kings to make winning hands. Then I start getting dealt mostly junk that causes me to lose hand after hand and deplete my bankroll.

I am urged to replenish it by watching ads or buying chips. I instead delete the app out of frustration.

A few days or a few weeks later I'll reinstall the app and the same thing happens. I'll initially start building up winnings, then run into a long string of 'bad luck' that depletes the bankroll. I again uninstall the app out of frustration.

I've gone through this cycle multiple times now and am fairly certain the predictable pattern is no coincidence. The outcomes are rigged.
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JackSpade,

Sounds like a +EV situation to me: install the app, win until the cards turn, delete the app before the balance falls to starting point. Repeat as needed.

Hope this helps!

Dog Hand
bklynkid11
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November 6th, 2022 at 5:56:35 PM permalink
Wow, Let me say thanks to all of the good folks who have responded so far. These insights are a big help. I once found a gambling site that was called "fare" or "fair" ______ something out of the UK and they claimed that the results were tamperproof (from their end) because the outcomes were controlled by some sophisticated external method. Later on, I came across a post either here or on some other forum that thoroughly debunked the implied "player protection". Bottom line, these forums are the players best hope to protect themselves.... Thanks again, bklyn
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