some PRNGs seem really phony
Quote: bklynkid11Howdy, I was hoping someone could help me understand RNGs or PRNGs better. I have tried various free and paid for simulators for Blackjack and I have to say that some of them have a very very fishy sort of feel to them. Strings of Push hands over and over. Strings of miracle pushes after I make a 21 or 20 and the dealer finds a way to get to 21 or 20 also. These are things I rarely see in live hand dealt games. This behavior is present and persistent in some simulators but not all. Then there are sims where you can't lose a hand, which suggests the free sim is being used as an enticement to show how easy it is to beat the real money game for newbies.. Be that as it may... My question is what RNG or PRNG is used in the "play for FUN" versions of the blackjack games that the Wizard of Odds website offers, and are they considered to be "robust". Thanks to the Wizard and the whole community for sharing their experiences and insights into this fascinating world. Thanks bklyn
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I don't think it's the RNG's that make such odd behavior happen, but more likely dodgy implementation of the game rules. Wizard's simulations are faithful. Some casinos do mess with results in practice mode to entice you to wager.
"For fun" poker games are widely understood to have occasional deals where several players have good starting hands and the river card brings an incredible outcome - such hands are designed to create excitement and fun and keep players coming back to the game.
If your non-money game is losing all the time, maybe they are trying to entice the casinos to give the game a trial (only kidding.)
but i will also be the first to admit i have programmed my own "fair" RNGs and the same stuff happens with them too its literally mostly in your head
the "phony rngs" are out there somewhere and there is no real way to tell if it is "fair"... its a matter of jurisdiction where these things exist at
That didn't happen with just fun money, there was some lessor known real money poker sites doing this.Quote: gordonm888I agree with OD. The non-money "for fun" games are not regulated to be fair. As a way of getting you excited about playing for money, it seems obvious that the 'non-money' games might be skewed in favor of the player.
"For fun" poker games are widely understood to have occasional deals where several players have good starting hands and the river card brings an incredible outcome - such hands are designed to create excitement and fun and keep players coming back to the game.
If your non-money game is losing all the time, maybe they are trying to entice the casinos to give the game a trial (only kidding.)
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People have also accused some more well know sites to have action enticing software.
There are many documents were PRNG were hacked. Many PRNG uses time. The most famous examples of my generation being pokemon roms getting PRNG hacked by perfect timing to maximize IV/EV/Nature and even create shiny pokemon.
Quote: IWannaBeAPHonestly my stance is that there is no such thing as true RNG. The only exception being quantum particles.
I am not convinced that anything is random. I am a believer that until we know everything, we know nothing,
Quote: IWannaBeAPHonestly my stance is that there is no such thing as true RNG. The only exception being quantum particles.
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I'm gonna go with nuclear decay intervals and thermal noise being likely close seconds ("more than random enough"), although I have no idea if those are manifestations of quantum particle randomness.
They could certainly be used to adequately convolute a PRNG algorithm enough for any purpose I can conceive.
Quote: DieterQuote: IWannaBeAPHonestly my stance is that there is no such thing as true RNG. The only exception being quantum particles.
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I'm gonna go with nuclear decay intervals and thermal noise being likely close seconds ("more than random enough"), although I have no idea if those are manifestations of quantum particle randomness.
They could certainly be used to adequately convolute a PRNG algorithm enough for any purpose I can conceive.
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Nuclear decay is the quintessential example of a quantum random process. Just ask Schrödinger’s cat.
Quote: unJonQuote: DieterQuote: IWannaBeAPHonestly my stance is that there is no such thing as true RNG. The only exception being quantum particles.
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I'm gonna go with nuclear decay intervals and thermal noise being likely close seconds ("more than random enough"), although I have no idea if those are manifestations of quantum particle randomness.
They could certainly be used to adequately convolute a PRNG algorithm enough for any purpose I can conceive.
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Nuclear decay is the quintessential example of a quantum random process. Just ask Schrödinger’s cat.
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I was today years old when I learned that this is a quantum thing. Thanks!
Quote: unJon
Nuclear decay is the quintessential example of a quantum random process. Just ask Schrödinger’s cat.
I think that cat bit me once. I learned not to shake the box before opening it.
If you have a deck of 52 cards, and a random integer ranging from 1 to 52, then you normally assign 1 as one card, say the two of spades, and 2 as another card, say the two of hearts. To weight the outcomes correctly, you must assign each card the same range of probability, i.e., you must assign 52 identical ranges of random numbers to correspond to the each of the 52 cards. In that way, each card is equally probable to be dealt.
The way you pre-determine the outcome isn't to monkey with the random number generator. You simply change the software that assigns outcomes to ranges of random numbers. For example, if your software is altered to define that the outcome is an Ace of spades whenever the random number/integer is in the range of 1 to 26, then the ace of spades will be "dealt" 50% of the time.
Fixing games is accomplished by changing the game software that defines the correspondance of random numbers to outcomes, and not by changing the random number generator.
Good post. Any second I spend thinking about the PRNG is a second I am not thinking about something important. For example, does IGT rig the outcome of the 5th reel on a Harley Davidson slot via deliberate software programming? I have seen many things wrong with slot and VP games. None of them have anything to do with the PRNG.Quote: gordonm888Look, it isn't the random number generator that is usually "insincere." It is the game software that defines how the random numbers are assigned to outcomes.
If you have a deck of 52 cards, and a random integer ranging from 1 to 52, then you normally assign 1 as one card, say the two of spades, and 2 as another card, say the two of hearts. To weight the outcomes correctly, you must assign each card the same range of probability, i.e., you must assign 52 identical ranges of random numbers to correspond to the each of the 52 cards. In that way, each card is equally probable to be dealt.
The way you pre-determine the outcome isn't to monkey with the random number generator. You simply change the software that assigns outcomes to ranges of random numbers. For example, if your software is altered to define that the outcome is an Ace of spades whenever the random number/integer is in the range of 1 to 26, then the ace of spades will be "dealt" 50% of the time.
Fixing games is accomplished by changing the game software that defines the correspondence of random numbers to outcomes, and not by changing the random number generator.
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If you took a commercial BJ game and replaced a superb PRNG and a mediocre PRNG, there is not a person alive who could tell the difference by just watching the outcome of 1000 hands. That would require data collection and statistical analysis.
Are you calling EvenBob a liar?😅Quote: Mentalthere is not a person alive who could tell the difference by just watching the outcome of 1000 hands.
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I am urged to replenish it by watching ads or buying chips. I instead delete the app out of frustration.
A few days or a few weeks later I'll reinstall the app and the same thing happens. I'll initially start building up winnings, then run into a long string of 'bad luck' that depletes the bankroll. I again uninstall the app out of frustration.
I've gone through this cycle multiple times now and am fairly certain the predictable pattern is no coincidence. The outcomes are rigged.
Quote: JackSpadeI have noticed that on a popular "free" poker app, the first couple days of playing I get dealt a lot of aces and kings to make winning hands. Then I start getting dealt mostly junk that causes me to lose hand after hand and deplete my bankroll.
I am urged to replenish it by watching ads or buying chips. I instead delete the app out of frustration.
A few days or a few weeks later I'll reinstall the app and the same thing happens. I'll initially start building up winnings, then run into a long string of 'bad luck' that depletes the bankroll. I again uninstall the app out of frustration.
I've gone through this cycle multiple times now and am fairly certain the predictable pattern is no coincidence. The outcomes are rigged.
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JackSpade,
Sounds like a +EV situation to me: install the app, win until the cards turn, delete the app before the balance falls to starting point. Repeat as needed.
Hope this helps!
Dog Hand
